Is there ever an end of individual consciousness?

[Mewz]

Perhaps I could research Taoist immortality more thoroughly and just never let this body die? Not exactly ideal, but it's better than the thought of ever having to go through anything remotely similar again to what I am going through now.

 

 

 

This part of your post stood out for me. Is there something specific you are going through right now that you are trying to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) by examining the Whole of Existence?

[greendog]

It Ego has a purpose. It a tool. Like a computer. it job is to math , read , work , ect. It thinks it is running the show. We are taught wrong from our time as little children. good example is we are asked how do you feel when we are young. We think emotioms and the phyical is us. Children should be ask what do you want to feel? Mind/ego body five senes emotions are all tools of the true conscieness. The true conscienceness should be running the show. Not the mind/ego body five senses, emotions. The ego/mind was created for this world of the phyical. The tao tries and does break the cycle if you pratice living the Tao everyday. The conscieness is of the soul , spirit, god , tao. We are the Tao every single one of us and every thing you see or think. There some stuff not mention. There a superconsciencess that is beyound our wildest dreams. Yes we are that. You can be a tree or a cat or a rock. IN fact you can be everything at was. IN fact you are. The superconscieness is filter down let say. In to a tiny brain in the phyical body. It loose so much by not being taught correctly when we are young. We all are one with the Tao. We are only becoming what we are already. No you don't loose or forgot anything. It like growing up. You still have the memories from being a child. You only have grown up. You are not the same person five years ago to now. We are always are changing and never really lose anything. The Toa is the same way. Nothing to fear about. Only the choice to fear. Fear does not run us unless we choose to.

[ion]

It Ego has a purpose. It a tool. Like a computer. it job is to math , read , work , ect. It thinks it is running the show. We are taught wrong from our time as little children. good example is we are asked how do you feel when we are young. We think emotioms and the phyical is us. Children should be ask what do you want to feel? Mind/ego body five senes emotions are all tools of the true conscieness. The true conscienceness should be running the show. Not the mind/ego body five senses, emotions. The ego/mind was created for this world of the phyical. The tao tries and does break the cycle if you pratice living the Tao everyday. The conscieness is of the soul , spirit, god , tao. We are the Tao every single one of us and every thing you see or think. There some stuff not mention. There a superconsciencess that is beyound our wildest dreams. Yes we are that. You can be a tree or a cat or a rock. IN fact you can be everything at was. IN fact you are. The superconscieness is filter down let say. In to a tiny brain in the phyical body. It loose so much by not being taught correctly when we are young. We all are one with the Tao. We are only becoming what we are already. No you don't loose or forgot anything. It like growing up. You still have the memories from being a child. You only have grown up. You are not the same person five years ago to now. We are always are changing and never really lose anything. The Toa is the same way. Nothing to fear about. Only the choice to fear. Fear does not run us unless we choose to.

I disagree with the notion that ego has a job. It definitely does not do the computing, reading or math, but it thinks it knows how.

 

Ego is probably most peoples stumbling block or limiting factors in those areas of cognition and in general thinking thinking faculties in general.

 

When the "I" tries to do something it inevitably fails. I believe that everything is sentient and alive;everything. That everything has self awareness but egoless and that many things are also conscious yet still egoless. I believe the concept of ego is the byproduct, the inevitable consequence of human consciousness yet the extremity to wich the ego is accentuated is variable and ependent on certain conditions, cultural and/or environmental.

 

I believe that like all things/ everything else, the thoughts and concepts which indefinitely within the individual and collective human consciousness are sentient and alive, and the ego, being a held concept also has a life in that sense, simply because it is, even though physicly it is not; it has no biological foundation.

 

Ego, and both its dependent thoughts and the thoughts that support it existence and have life and so do not fall into dissolution with the body at the time of death. When a person has a body, the ego and its associated thoughts try to validate their existance and to establish them/its self on earth, it creates a cultural environment that accentuates is position within the consciousness of beings so that it establishes and perpetuates its own existence on earth or within our reality; within existence.

 

If/when a person tries to avoid validating the concept of ego or living out an existence in the name of the mental fixation of the ego concept, or in a state of meditation or trance where in a person experiences egoless states and "attempts" to sustain that state or at the time the body "dies", ego and its thoughts will fight for their lives.

 

Ego and its assoiate thoughts believing in and thus having a self, fear death, and beyond having a healthy will to survive will fight for their lives, telling lies and extraordinary promises that it can in noway fullfill. It will cause temptation to succumb to it in egoless states like death and meditation. It will cause a person on the verge of enlightenment to believe they are becomming the buddha and though it may have been true it will cease when its believed or percieved.

 

It is a parasite on self awareness, and causes the awareness to believe it is the awareness of the ego, like the shine on an apple making the apple believe that it is the product of the shine.

 

When a person dies self awareness becomes one with pure awareness whos existence rest on a foundation of infinity. Infinity is a principal and quality without form and precedes time/space and sequence/existence, it is the sourceless source that all things spring from and does not identify with self. Selflessly and without self the principle of infinity exists, and selflessly without self it creates all things and exists in independence. The stateless state of pure awareness having no sense of self is undifferintiated and baseless, it is the perception of being, also, having eternity as its source is is confident that is is, yet it is perfectly still it is confident that it is and is thus a state of pure love and bliss. When A self awareness, the awareness of experience percieves that it is experiencing the blissfull effect of non-being as it's own experience, or even an experience that others have experienced then it believes that the effect of beinglessness is an experience of a being or something that can be experienced by a self; yet it is the falling away of sense of self that is perception of a self experiencing the effect, and it is that perception that causes the ego to continue to exist after death. Yet the egos foundation for existing after death is contrary to the stillness, undifferentiated selflessness it is experiencing and so does not remain in a state of experiencing the bliss and love that without doing anything dissolves all other senses of self.

 

So ego ends up in an infintesimal loop that is the percise opposite of love, bliss, and selflessness. Its "hell", a self arising dimmension that is the by-product of ego juxtopposed to infinite selflessness and it is entirely self imposed, and experienced by quite possably every human being in the after death, at least for an infinite moment.

 

Part of what chains the ego in this state of eternal dying is that it believes it can do something to get out of the hell it creates, or that it can hide and wait it out, but the very sense of doing and being that self awareness keeps being tricked into experienceing are the very things that keep it from dissolving into non being, so the self awareness continues being aware of the discomforts of ego after the body is gone.

 

After having concieved of the ego and spending a life fortifying ours and others, we spend our lives clinging to experiencing an ego having a life, and so we, (self awareness) also cling to experiencing ego having a death and thus reap the awareness of doing so. It is the same thing in life (battle/agony-ecstacy between self and no-self) but spread thinner and balanced out by other things.

[Gypsy]

In Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism there seems to be an idea that the individual self must be relinquished in order to know true peace. That the ego only brings suffering to itself. That everything is one, and we are on a path to obtain that sense of awareness.

 

But just as day always follows night, and death always follows life, doesn't this mean that even if we "reunite with the spirit of the universe" "transcend life and death, time and space" that at some point we will again find ourselves lost in individual consciousness?

 

Does that mean basically we are "stuck" forever in these cycles? All of these religions claim that you can transcend these cycles for eternity, but that seems impossible given the dualistic nature of all things - including "one self" and "individual self".

 

This is a very serious unresolved issue in my mind. There could be some sort of flaw in my knowledge or logic here, a limitation in the English language, or something that my mind cannot grasp. But the way I see it, why bother? I can meditate for years until I find contentment, but then I'm just going to lose it again at some point (not necessarily within this life). It's a very depressing thought. Makes me either want to chase pleasures of the flesh for eternity, unfulfilling as they may be. Or just kill myself and continuously change my perception of who / what I am in order to try and avoid discontent.

 

Perhaps I could research Taoist immortality more thoroughly and just never let this body die? Not exactly ideal, but it's better than the thought of ever having to go through anything remotely similar again to what I am going through now.

 

Thanks for any help or insight you may be able to provide. I find my views typically most closely aligned with Taoism, and would practice SFQG much more often (both to heal myself and to heal others), if I felt there was any real point to do so. If I can define anything in better detail, or share anything else about myself, please ask.

Welcome to Tao or Empty Tao. One thing you know for sure is I amness, without content without time bound going this way or that way-this is True Nature of Being or of the Solar-Soul System, a system filled with on going happenings whether you like it or not.. Life-ing wasn't meant to be easy. Thy Rock-Earth body continues to be tempted by outer attractions-distractions. It's the way of the Tao. The Tao is a tricky energy working it's magic on it's soul. Life is similar to a fairytale filled with thought belief stories of 'me-i'. And, this is the wake up call, to let go of the stories of me-pea brain. lol~ Thy Rock put that belief story there for us and we've all been hoodwinked to think we are the thoughts that think without your consent. If this truth is understood by whoever reads these lines-'great', if not than our scripts are not similar. We are not the content or the stories, these stories do not define our True Nature. You will never know what you are in this time/space imaginary filled with interpretation ideas. And, never locate it in word. This is Thy Rock or God or Christ Conscious playground. It's the Ocean and were the waves. Thy Rock's novel is very challenging at times, with test, exams, ups-downs in the emotional word play. Creation-Tao-Brain Biological Psychological system was created for you to believe. And, it sure got my attention. As long as you don't give thought thinking in things-material to much of your attention(awareness-consciousness), go with the flow and allow it all to be as it is. Even when other's aren't on the same page as your journey is to be intelligent wise, loving, understanding, with compassion, or not. Be Still & Know, your True Nature is neither this or that. Namaste

[footprint]

There is nothing to relinquish.

And no thing is stuck.

 

I was watching the film ONE, where Robert Thurman

the first American to be Ordained in Tibet says,

"This is it. This is Nirvana. Only we are really bad at enjoying it."

 

Obviously I am only a Qi Gong student myself, and I thank you for

this discussion.

[darkstar1013]

Existence without desire, stillness and silence without struggle--then there is no forward or back. No cycle to chase--no worry or dispare. Becoming all is complex and simple. Hard and easy. Fill yourself with emptiness and walk from your heart. Star

[Gypsy]

Once you know and realize Earthbody entities is, an expression manifestation of the One Life Creation-Thy Rock or God. Created duality words within opposites. This is Life-This is it's Novel-Author-ity. When your feeding the 'me' it appears that your feeding an individual consciousness in thought of appearance-timebound. But in actuality, it's Thy Rock Consciousness Aware of 'eating is happening', food is happening, going to the bathroom is happening, and by no one. The me eventually stops (identifing within thought-time-content) with 2 or more objects moving-it's a happening. Thy Rock-You-Us-them-we-they are imagining the manifest in time thought thinking in words. Our True Nature is Timeless. "Thy Rock is never an object of it's knowledge!"

[Jadespear]

If you have no concept of yourself, what do you have?

 

I think it would be wise to examine the difference between what we call our personality and what we call our consciousness, to further understand the issue and question of individual consciousness.

 

Is the idea of individual consciousness the same as awareness, the part of you that is fundamentally paying attention all the time? The part of you that is always there throughout your whole life?

 

Lets not confuse this consciousness, or mind, with our personalities....if we examine how we have come into the world and how we are traveling through it we will see that our personalities, our societal behavior of all kinds is made up by us as we go....it is entirely self created.

 

Life has a nature. That nature, I think is what we are all talking about when we talk about the Tao. The collective consciousness of the universe is simply a collection of all the individual consciousness within it. All the planets, all the rivers, all the stars...they are aware of their own existence....modern science has even revealed that the Planet Earth is a self maintaining living organism that regulates its own temperature.

 

If there was an end to individual consciousness...what would it be? What would begin?

 

What about the fact that we are individuals is bad, what about it is good? More importantly how do you know that you are an individual? Is not the constant comparison of the individual vs. the group the only thing that makes you an individual? This is the point of relativity...without a relationship to something else it is very hard to pinpoint what is what, who is who, why this and why that.... I believe the buddhists are fond of saying that nothing in the universe exists of its own accord...everything is linked. Everything has a cause and a corresponding effect.

 

Would an end to individual consciousness mean that you would cease to be yourself and would become a collective consciousness? A consciousness of accumulated individual consciousness? Could not that "collective" consciousness be seen as just another individual consciousness?

 

 

"The great Tao is hidden deeply in all things" - Lao Tse

 

"Truth is a pathless land." Krishnamurti

[ion]

I dont think anyone is confusing consciousness for personality.

 

 

If you have no concept of yourself, what do you have?

If by concept of yourself, you mean ego, A coceived concept of self being, having a life and living one, then I would say that without that you would self awareness, the ability to problem solve and do based on that self awareness. That would be a highly developed sense of self awareness but egoless. A simpler form of self awareness would be just that, an awareness of ones tendencies, reactions/responses to stimuli, and ones parameters etc.

 

If you mean a lack of self awareness altogether then what you have is a sense of being, and you cant shake that. When all identity and ssense of self is gone there is a sense of being, and it doesnt, nor has it ever belonged to you. That sense of being is the primative awareness at the begining of the universe, the awareness of old yin the sense of being that arises out of stillness.

[Jadespear]

Right on.

 

I think the ego exists for the purpose of self preservation. It is not evil, nor false. And is useful to direct our lives towards a greater good.

 

I still don't get the question I guess.... An end to individual consciousness? Everything that exists is connected. Perhaps the question is more geared to a separate consciousness... Separate from the rest in a sense. I don't know.

 

"There is no union

There is no separation

There is only one."

[ion]

How do you suppose the ego does that? I see that that the most vital of our routines are fairly unconscious and in situations where eating is concerned, the ego often times to be over riden.

 

The mental aspects of focus, deliberate action, and attention, along with biological impulses and cognition all have an actual biological basis, areas of the brain and nervous system where they can be seen working, and areas of the brain that control the specific function. Intuition and dreams come from a seperate brain in the enteric nervous system then the the encepholon which is what we normaly think of as a brain in the skull, and both fire impulses independently from the other, one doesn't control the other.

 

These faculties above are all a consciousness needs in order to organize things and take care of ones self besides all the vital functions that are already taking care of themselves unconsciously. There is no need for an exagerated sense of self or an ego to take care of anything, and unlike these faculties listed above the ego does not have a biological basis, there is no seat of consciousness in the brain, no area where an ego resides and the brain itself is like several brains. Egois purely a concept.

 

The fact that I say it is purely a concept is not to blow it off as something simple and benign or anything. It is the absolute center of every human ideology. You have seen what the concept of God to certain individuals and cultures Im sure? A concept depending on priority in a beings image of wholeness and life ideology has force and power on that being. Religious fanatics have their emotions and sense of morality governed by the concept of God. Religious fanatics will commit murder and commit suicide and murder at the same time all in the name of God, and what it all is in the mind, God included, is concepts held by the individual, mental fixations.

 

"God", whether it's purely a subjective concept, or an objective reality is always a concept in the individuals mind, yet the concept is givven power over the indiviual because the individual believes the ideology and thus the concept governs the persons ideology, cognition, thought process and even impulses. Ideologies even gain control of endocrineglands in the limbic system. Every time a religious fanatic gets angry or offended in the name of their beliefs/ideology, that concept and ideology, in relation to that ones stimuli, controles emotions, and glands, and the secretion of certain hormones responsible for the persons mental/emotional state like adrenaline etc. Then those hormones influence the persons perceptions and thought process which are controlled by the ideology so when the adreniline comes for circle the ideology controls what its there for too.

 

The cocepts we hold rule our physiology and health/ mental health. The concept that a being is a self, and has a life and is living one and will one day die is purely a concept. This concept, the ego, has so much power over our neuro-biology, but absolutely no direct influence, it is absolutely responsible for no body function, yet its presence causes a multitude of disorders.

 

The ego concept which serves no function has so much power. The illusion that it has a life, and is living one is what gives the concept of God so much power over people to begin with because the priority placed on ego is far greater then the priority placed on anything God included, but that is precisely why God can have more power then ego, because the concept of God is that it controls fate and life/death, so within the ideology, God is is high priority because because of their fear, and the concept of death.

 

The concept of god is also a byproduct of ego. Ego being the veil that gives awareness a sense of seperatedness; Because it has come to the conclusion and defines itself as being thus and thus, according to Tao it is also not this and that. Because there is beauty there is ugliness...because there is ego, as in existing object living its own existence, then there is also relative objects living, or existing as a seperate existence. Ego is indipendent entity and so naturaly seperate. Because ego is seperate and a perception of self, it views Tao as God, and projects an ego on Tao and calls it God.

Edited July 16, 2013 by ion

[Jadespear]

Hmmm. Ok.

 

The ego I am referring to is quite simply the sense of self worth that people have about themselves...I guess you could call it a function of their minds...if people have no sense of self worth than they cannot accomplish anything...which is why I said it was useful in moving forward in human affairs toward a greater good. Don't get me wrong, we could go back and forth about what "ego" actually is, but the fact remains that you and I believe in ourselves, and that is a function of mentally created "ego" per se.

 

You might find the philosophies of Thales of Miletus interesting, he apparently is the first greek philosopher to have invented the idea of two separate worlds- the known, and the unknown and consequently the term "God."

 

"The concept that a being is a self, and has a life and is living one and will one day die is purely a concept." ---- How is this statement true at all? If so, you are simply trading the word "concept" for "perception". The fact that we are both alive and talking on this website is not a concept....it is not a theory that I am talking to you and you to me. The fact that people physically die and vanish from the Earth we inhabit is not a concept, it happens all the time. Are you telling me that when my grandpa died physically, he did not? Are you honestly trying to say that there is no difference between what we think and what actually is in front of us? Are you honestly not seeing the difference between truth and belief? Or are you simply saying that our fundmanetal "being" is the only truth...which is uncreated and therefore does not die?

 

 

As far as the original question is concerned- you may want to take a look at some theosophical writings about the "Levels of Initiation" which, according to them, every individual consciousness must go through as part of the "Divine Evolution" I thank you for this question because it sparked an interest in me. Somehow strangely I think I was right about the evolution into a collective consciousness if The Theosophists are right as well...apparently according to them we are all born with the yearning to understand and control everything in the Universe as part of God's will, so that one day we may serve others in any conceivable way to help them however they need to be helped. Service to others is the very nature of our souls. Reaching various levels or "initiations" involve expanding your consciousness to become aware of more...your consciousness will be affected but it will not end. You will also gain siddhis, or powers along the way. It is truly perplexing to experience some of these siddhis....like the power to control peoples thoughts and speech....or the power to move the wind....or the power over the "all" as described by Jesus in the lost gospel of Thomas.

[ion]

I think the ego exists for the purpose of self preservation. It is not evil, nor false. And is useful to direct our lives towards a greater good.

 

 

The ego you were refering to was the determing factor and director of actions(self preservation) and as you say, toward the greater good.

The ego I am referring to is quite simply the sense of self worth that people have about themselves...I guess you could call it a function of their minds...if people have no sense of self worth than they cannot accomplish anything...which is why I said it was useful in moving forward in human affairs toward a greater good. Don't get me wrong, we could go back and forth about what "ego" actually is, but the fact remains that you and I believe in ourselves, and that is a function of mentally created "ego" per se.

Self worth is a product of ego. Does the tao, which is ultimately selfless and without a self have a sense of self worth. Feeling either good or bad about ones self is judging the tao ultimately, but is not a necessary part of life to feel either way.

 

If you give yourself to the concepts of good and bad, then you give yourself to the activity of liking and disliking, of judging and comparing; and to what standard are you comparing. Before the people strayed from tao there was no concept of good or bad, and no mental-fixation of ego to compare to a named concept as a standard, and so they didnt have a sense of self worth at all but derived the same confidence from loving their surroundings and having the feeling that we call goodwill and respect to and of their group which are also their surroundings.

 

The law of attraction, that like attracts like and so a well fed ego draws good to ones self is not a fundemental law, but may yeild good earthly fruits, a wordly/mundane thing that the ego will be satisfied and call it good. But the law of attraction and the exact function you are speaking of is also used by everyone from televangilist to wall street in order to meet their sucsess's. You rarely an ego in a negative spiral of feeling badly about itself on wall street, in the pentagon, or in a televised church, but these collectives are having a "bad" and negative impact on society and the earth. I assure you, the ceo of walmart feels very good about his or herself and what they do. That person has very well rationalized their actions and are at total peace with literaly perpetuating slavery and exploitation, and having followed the temptations and rationale of the ego as far as they have, they are very much at peace with their greed and conquests. The board at Monsanto doubly so.

 

So in the ultramundane sense, a person cultivating a sense of self worth does so in an attempt to establish peace, but it is like hiding in a cave in a collapsing mountain, and is the same as cultivating an eternity antangled in suffering of the self, (per the thread topic).

 

The egos is rooted in something it does not have and can never touch, a sense of being, and why should a being judge that sense of being either good or bad?

 

Does an ego have a self awareness, or is it a product of self awareness? It is not self awareness, and self awareness without an ego, and a mind ruled by dualistic concepts does not judge its awareness as good or bad.

 

As far as a greek guy creating the concept of God, Id say you might be a little bit to learned and feigning ignorance to avoid the obvious. The concept and worshipping of God and gods predates the first celebrated civilization (sumaria) by a couple hundred thousand years.

 

What I was refering to when I say that God is a by product of ego is that ego is the concept that this sense of being belongs to this self awareness and this self awareness is my experience and I am the being confined to this space, my body and that it is I who control and am also subject to this body and it is I who exist.

 

But because of the way of Tao, to describe one thing is to have give life to its polaraity because to make not of a polarity isto give life to the spectrum its a part of, so to say I am this, is to say I am not that.

 

To be not that is to say that that is something other then I concept, so I creates othersconcept, and I concept creates a seperatedness, a division within infinite unity. An ego is the only thing that can not say that it is one with all things, but because it has faith in its existance, it percieves an ego quality in the unity and way of the universe and calls it god. It says that the Tao is a thing like it a self with a POV, motives and intentions.

 

 

Ego is what causes us to unconsciously think and act for the self, it is because of ego that we have to reason with ourselves and over ride its fundamental nature (selfishness) because it is born from the concept of self.

 

The ego you also refered to the one that works toward a greater good is comparable to this

 

 

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 18

 

When the great Tao is forgotten,

Kindness and morality arise.

When wisdom and intelligence are born,

The great pretence begins.

 

When there is no peace within the family,

Filial piety and devotion arise.

When the country is confused and in chaos,

Loyal ministers appear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 38

 

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,

And is therefore good.

A foolish man tries to be good,

And is therefore not good.

 

A truly good man does nothing,

Yet nothing is left undone.

A foolish man is always doing,

Yet much remains to be done

 

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.

When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.

When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,

He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order

 

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.

When goodness is lost, there is kindness.

When kindness is lost, there is justice.

When justice is lost, there is ritual.

Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.

Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao.

It is the beginning of folly.

 

Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real

and not what is on the surface,

On the fruit and not the flower,

Therefore accept the one and reject the other

And others.

 

Ego creates a division and all selfish acts are born from the ego, it is these selfish acts that innoculated culture with disharmony etc and the thing that has to be over come/over ridden when selfless act of "good" are done, when the ego has a sense of bad self worth or what ever it acts out its concept of good in order to be its concept of good so it can feel a good sense of self worth. The good provided by ego is the superficial rite described in chapter 8, and the unpretentious "good" of chapter 38 is thoughtless because its our tue nature our true nature is selfless(tao like) and naturally what we call "good" from this "bad" place of dualistic and egotistical thinking.

[Jadespear]

Ok.

 

But is there an end to individual consciousness?

[ion]

 

But is there an end to individual consciousness?

 

 

In an egoless state, without a body, there is still a sense of being, and not being many or being one, it does not feel unindividual, or individual, but having a sense of being, and having awareness of that, it feels like the sense of being is

 

 

Are you familiar with the concept of a consciousness arising, how it rises from triggers? When the concept of self is letgo of and the ego that never was is let go of, all consciousness ceases to rise because the ego is at the core and the limiting factor in all consciousness in the individuals mind; remove the hub from the center of a wheel and the wheel is no longer a wheel. Life ideology is a part of every consciousness, ego is the center of life ideology, the limiting factor in the shape and form of all an individuals consciousness.

 

By the disolution of ego all associated consciousness and ideologies are no longer, yet a sense of being is

Edited July 18, 2013 by ion

[Jadespear]

Right on. Thank you for the explanation. It makes more sense to me now.

 

The concepts you describe I have felt, I suppose the real divide is between the two terms consciousness and being. Consciousness depends on being,, but being does not depend on consciousness ... Even though at times it seems so.

[Jadespear]

Right on. Thank you for the explanation. It makes more sense to me now.

 

The concepts you describe I have felt, I suppose the real divide is between the two terms consciousness and being. Consciousness depends on being,, but being does not depend on consciousness ... Even though at times it seems so.

[ion]

"I think there for I am". Is un-true. Thoughts are a part of a developed consciousness at best, but tend to be redundant uncontrolable and subjective, also something I am subject to.

 

"I experience therefore I am" is also untrue, it is better to reconcile the falisity in the "I think therefore I am" myth with, "I have a subjective observation of an experience, there for I am a reflection of an illusion."

Edited July 18, 2013 by ion

[Jadespear]

Right I agree that I don't have to think to exist.

 

But I'm a little confused as to why people think subjective experiences are illusions....they may not be the whole picture, but an illusion?

[ion]

Right I agree that I don't have to think to exist.

 

But I'm a little confused as to why people think subjective experiences are illusions....they may not be the whole picture, but an illusion?

It is not that each of our experiences are parts of a whole. And so it goes beyond being part of a whole picture. In fact what we experience is the absolute whole picture, but its a construct of our ego that we experience.

 

If 50 people are in a room togeather and something happens that they all see, it is possable that there will be 50 confllicting reports of what happened.

 

Although experience is illusion, your experience of it's un-reality is very real and is reality; your reality is my reality, what I am subject to as the "me" that you experience. The inverse is also true of you in relation to me. Yet like all that it contains is passing and will cease to exist because there was none there to ever have experienced it.

 

We compare concepts and cultural ideals to judge our field of observation/existence, then we live out our judgments and comparisons, their influences and effect, rather then the experience, but that all passes at the time of death, then death, a concept constructed by ego becomes reality and the Tao's sense of being, becomes aware of only that.

 

We project what we see, before we see it, and are only aware of what we project. Whether reality is a completley subjective concept of something that never is, or whether it is something that underneath the subjectivity is objective and really is

having egos, we experience existence as an ego defined contruct. Memories of events that don't live up to the ego constructed are often reconstructed and remembered differently so that they do.

 

 

Because there is an ego that everything is associated to as its processed, and defined by before it is projected, everything that is experienced is ego. All consciousness is ego everything is consciousness; rather then the sense of being becoming aware of & receptive to the experience of it's relative being, the ego principle/concept defines existence-reality & existence-being respectively as life, and the egobeing living the life. It does so from a state of complete confinement to it's construct, it experiences only what it allowed itself to construct, and what it constructs is constructed to validate its being.

 

But it never was. Ego is dependent on self awareness, self awareness is dependent on awareness which is dependent on sense of being; sense of being is dependent on nothing for its existence, nothing is dependent on the sorvereign principle, the principle of infinity which all things depend on for their existence,

 

The sense of being is why ego feels like it is, and ego reasons with its self that the sense of being is it's, Ego thinks that it is experiencing a life and so the sense of being belongs to it, dependent on it's existence.

 

The sense of being within me, and within you, is the same sense of being, it does not belong to you or I and does not have its orgins within (our) form(s). It is not confined to any time, place or being, it is its own being. The sense of being we all experience, precedes existence, space-time, and form, and the ego imposed parameters of life and death, as well as transcends them.

 

It does not arise or have its orgins within our being, it is not subject to our being and transcends the passing of our being, and so our sense of being never leaves us though the concepts of I, us, we, me and you do leave "us"; that sense of being here that the sense of self an ego are dependent on is still there always. The ego never feels it, but it associates it an processes it as its; but only the sese of being ever feels the sense of being, so when we pass and disolve, "we"(it) feels absolutely no loss. The sesne of being we all feel will still be felt, but without considering the concept of I, self, or other or the identities there in.

 

 

 

It does not have its orgins, and is not dependent on our form for its being, but with our form having come into existence, it finds itself within us and it's awareness is subject to our form and unconscious behavior. The resulting self awareness has its orgins in form and behavior, followed by position, and the ego has its orgins just on top of that.

 

The reality we experience has its orgins in ego, and our perception of the reality has its orgin in ego, and not in the form the ego claims as its own. Perception is subjectified awareness, our perception is subject to our ego, not the form, not the position of the form, or the absolute awareness of the forms position and its undefined experience.

 

Our perception of existence is our experience; our perception has its orgins in illusion and is an illusion.

Edited July 18, 2013 by ion

[ion]

double post

Edited July 18, 2013 by ion

[Jadespear]

Thanks for the long winded response. But I'm going to have to disagree with you on your first point. Experience is not an illusion. It may be in the way that you are thinking of it....but I don't see how it is at all. When I eat food I taste it, it's not an illusion, when I am outside and feel the sun it's not an illusion. When I have sex and feel good, it's not an illusion. How is experience an illusion? You use so many pronouns that it is hard for me to understand what you are actually trying to say.

 

An illusion as in all of my senses are not operating the right way and are creating experiences? As in a skewed perception?

 

An illusion as in what? Illusion is a word to describe something you see but does not exist...

 

I don't see my feelings, I feel them. There're not illusory. By what exactly do you mean by using that word illusion?

 

Even if the ego is self created, it exists. It's not an illusion. It may come and go just like everything else but that doesn't make everything an illusion dude.

[deci belle]

Is there ever an end of individual consciousness?

 

Individual consciousness has never begun. You are the world itself. It's just your own mind. When you interrupt this illusion you revert to nonoriginated selfless awareness which is your own mind. There are no two minds. So selfless aware nature is unborn. Your awareness is just this nature right now.

 

Inconceivability is actually manageable. It's you already. It isn't a matter of sudden enlightenment at all because pristine aware nature is self-refreshing. You can go along with this instead of self-degrading action habitually chained to created cycles of the world of you poison yourself with views of right and wrong and self and other.

 

Ego-consciousness is necessary but has usurped the master.

 

There are times when reality appears of itself. If you can set to work and refine the self, the time will come of itself and you will arrive expending no effort.

 

It is a matter of interrupting this habitual consciousness of the personal identity.

 

One needs to watch over this mind without following it unawares. After a long time without going along with its illusory nature, its fire will die down and the real will appear of itself.

 

 

 

 

ed note: add a few lines

Edited July 19, 2013 by deci belle

[deci belle]

I don't see my feelings, I feel them. There're not illusory.

 

Creation itself is the illusion. Feelings only serve to validate the illusory self.

 

ion has a very good sense of it. There is absolutely no way to make sense of it intellectually.

 

It is inconceivable. Any way you look at it or even see it in terms of transcendent vision it is you all the way through. This you is not a separate thing. This you has no individual attributability.

 

The absolute aspect is no to be clung to intellectually either. Clinging to one or the other is delusion.

 

The totality is aware at all times. When you turn the focus of your awareness around to see through phenomena and your own perspective without denying characteristics of situations themselves, you can begin to get this sense of ion's description in terms of selfless adaption.

 

It is not a matter of action or giving away anything. It is acknowledging one's intrinsic inseparability from the situation. Adapting really means just seeing the situation for what it really is as ion says. Usually what is necessary is not doing anything based on self-reflective perspectives.

 

What is not created is the real. The real is awareness itself. Your own awareness is unborn. It is the Unborn, to use Bankei's term. There is no person. There is no thing. If one can go along with the real nonpsychological primal spirit and not entertain views of self and other in the midst of situation by selfless adaption, one can pass through cycles of creation and be a partner rather than be subject to evolutionary cycles of karmic time.

 

This is enlightening function. Selflessness is only a term indicative of those who follow nonpsychological awareness and let the world go on without them.

 

This is the meaning of reversal in taoist alchemical writings.

[Jadespear]

I'm going to have to ask you another question then. When you say "creation itself is an illusion"...what do you mean by that? Are you simply not acknowledging the fact that there is a physical universe in which we live? Or are you saying acts of creation, like creating music, creating babies, creating anything...are illusions?

 

Both of these make no sense in terms of using the word "illusion" because there has to be a "real" counterpart to describe something as an illusion...

 

My own awareness is not unborn, it exists within my body at this time. I was born, and therefore so was my awareness.

 

If there is no way to make sense of something intellectually, why do you believe it? Why do you espouse concepts that you yourself believe are not able to be understood? That's an illusion. You are the illusion my friend, talking all this nonsense as if it was real.

 

There is no proof either way of anything. So claiming to know is closer to an illusion than truth.