Are the natural laws of the universe perfect?

[Jetsun]

If the natural laws in the universe are perfect and you are a microcosm of the universe then all efforts and methods to improve yourself are just your own attempts to improve perfection, but that is obviously a foolish thing to try to do and harmony must get restored naturally when you stop believing in imperfection and doing things from that perspective because then you stop resisting the natural laws which are always striving for balance.

 

So what is there to do spiritually except appreciate what you witness and what you are? maybe all problems stem from the belief of imperfection, the belief that man has to improve creation.

 

If the natural laws are not perfect then I expect all life would come to an end due to imbalance.. but that doesn't happen.

[silas]

If the natural laws in the universe are perfect and you are a microcosm of the universe then all efforts and methods to improve yourself are just your own attempts to improve perfection, but that is obviously a foolish thing to try to do and harmony must get restored naturally when you stop believing in imperfection and doing things from that perspective because then you stop resisting the natural laws which are always striving for balance.

 

 

The universe is huge, so perfection must be analyzed at the different levels. The questions are which microcosm and what perfection? Does perfection mean "neat and orderly"? In classical physics, perfection is the observable world where Newton's simple laws operate. At huge distances and high speeds, Einsteinian laws better predict the world. At the atomic level, things tend to be more difficult to analyze and Newton and Einstein encounter trouble. In the subatomic world of quantum physics, things are always messy, b/c quantum behavior bucks cause and effect. In classical Taoism, reality is acausal, and the universe moves by following Tao patterns, without local cause and effect (or Tao is the cause of all things).

 

So what is there to do spiritually except appreciate what you witness and what you are? maybe all problems stem from the belief of imperfection, the belief that man has to improve creation.

 

If the natural laws are not perfect then I expect all life would come to an end due to imbalance.. but that doesn't happen.

 

In classical Taoism, human beings have their inborn nature and their ability to follow Tao currents as the gifts to live harmoniously with their surroundings - to follow the higher physical laws, so to speak, but their polarizing minds and external social influence cause disharmony. The emperor would help enforce harmony by projecting a harmonizing field to his people (see Anarchy And A Classical Tao Of Laws). Individually, classical Taoists practice to restore the connection to inborn nature and Tao include:

 

Trance meditation or Awareness meditation

Subliminal meditation

Edited June 12, 2013 by silas

[Marblehead]

This might be a really fun thread.

 

Yes, the universe is perfect. Everything is exactly as it is supposed to be at any given point in time.

 

However, the human mind can be a really aweful (I use this word both negatively and positively) thing.

 

Silas spoke so well above I think I will hold my tongue for the moment.

[JustBHappy]

Perfection is a man made projection, along with imperfect and the 10,000 other labels we like to use to put reality in little boxes.

Keep in mind that we see, and experience such a small glimpse of reality.

Time---We only experience the world from our perspective of time, one in which 100 years is a long full life, and one second is quick and fleeting. There is a lot more to be seen in time.

Space-- A visit to the local planetarium will show us how small we are in relation to the cosmos. More importantly it will show how much we can't see or understand.

Perception---We only see a tiny range within the electromagnetic spectrum, and there a likely other 'dimensions' of seeing possible beyond this model. The same goes for hearing, the frequencies we are aware of make up a small piece of what's out there.

 

Two points that come out of this:

1. We are clearly in no position to apply labels like perfection or imperfection.

2. It all comes from the mind. If our mind is in harmony and peace, we will see perfection in the universe. If our mind is scattered chaotic and agitated we will see imperfection.

As far as natural laws go, they can all be broken but they appear to work fine within the paradigm in which they were formed.

[silas]

2. It all comes from the mind. If our mind is in harmony and peace, we will see perfection in the universe. If our mind is scattered chaotic and agitated we will see imperfection.

 

JustBHappy, I am interested in this point, which has some basis in Buddhist thought. If a person's mind is in harmony and peace - even though he is surrounded by violence, grief, suffering and pain, will that person still see perfection?

[JustBHappy]

Wonderful question.

This is my understanding and experience; If a persons mind is in harmony and peace they will perceive a more harmonious and perfect reality. When I am at peace inside, my external world is also perceived in this way.

For most of us, the moment we are entrenched in a situation with violence, grief, suffering and pain, we immediately lose our center and our harmonious and peaceful state of mind. I especially am prone to this. The more I practice, the more sensitive I get and am easily influenced by the moods, thoughts and feelings around me. I will one day reach the point where I am broadcasting so loudly that my environment is blasted by feelings of calm and equanimity and the people around me lose the connection to the anger, violence, grief etc.. that is destroying their happiness.

So what I am saying is that for most of us, we are not in harmony and peace when we are surrounded by violence, grief, suffering and pain so of course, we may not perciece the world as perfection in that moment.

One who is awake, from my understanding will not have this issue. This type of being is not caught up in the display in front of them, they see the whole picture. The violence, grief, suffering and pain in front of us, is always just one small glimpse of reality in that moment. There is a whole cosmos at play. It is we who have this affliction of getting caught up in the appearances around us and take this to be reality. One who can expand awareness, will see it for what it really is, one small appearance in a vast cosmos. One small glimpse in time is no basis for which to make judgements of perfection and imperfection.

So the answer to your question really depends on the level of harmony and peace in ones mind. For most of us this harmony and peace is dependant, it relies upon our surroundings and perceptions in the moment. For a realized being, it is natural, unborn, uncreated, and has no causes or conditions to rely upon and thus will not be affected by changes and appearances. May we all learn to rest and abide in happiness that is free from causes and conditions.

[silas]

 

One who is awake, from my understanding will not have this issue. This type of being is not caught up in the display in front of them, they see the whole picture. The violence, grief, suffering and pain in front of us, is always just one small glimpse of reality in that moment. There is a whole cosmos at play. It is we who have this affliction of getting caught up in the appearances around us and take this to be reality. One who can expand awareness, will see it for what it really is, one small appearance in a vast cosmos. One small glimpse in time is no basis for which to make judgements of perfection and imperfection.

 

So the answer to your question really depends on the level of harmony and peace in ones mind. For most of us this harmony and peace is dependant, it relies upon our surroundings and perceptions in the moment. For a realized being, it is natural, unborn, uncreated, and has no causes or conditions to rely upon and thus will not be affected by changes and appearances. May we all learn to rest and abide in happiness that is free from causes and conditions.

 

JustBHappy, thanks for the answer. Now, please do not mistake this question for an attack:

 

Let's say there is some homeless man being kicked and tortured on the street by some big, muscular thug. Does the harmonious man of your system rush to help him and thus ruin his sense of peace and harmony? Or does he yell to the homeless man, "Your pain and suffering are in your mind. Repeat, there is no pain and siffering, there is no pain and suffering. If you ignore it, it will go away...."

[JustBHappy]

JustBHappy, thanks for the answer. Now, please do not mistake this question for an attack:

 

Let's say there is some homeless man being kicked and tortured on the street by some big, muscular thug. Does the harmonious man of your system rush to help him and thus ruin his sense of peace and harmony? Or does he yell to the homeless man, "Your pain and suffering are in your mind. Repeat, there is no pain and siffering, there is no pain and suffering. If you ignore it, it will go away...."

 

Hehe,

 

For a realized person to help another there is no reason or requirement for losing their own sense of peace and harmony. Once again, it is unborn, uncreated, beyond causes and conditions. You can come up with a thousand scenarios, it would make no difference, it is a state of being that is beyond causes and conditions. It does not rely upon appearances. Moreover a person would be able to assist in a much better way if they were able to stay centered themselves.

 

It would be of no assistance, nor entirely true to tell someone that their pain and suffering is not real. Pain and suffering is quite real to the person experiencing it. It's also quite real to the people around witnessing it. It would be uncompassionate and unwise to say such things to people. Appearances cannot be denied, the great Buddhist and Taoist as well as Hindu masters didn't teach nihilism. The Buddha made this very clear in his teaching on the "two truths," It wasn't the teaching on 1 1/2 truths, or one truth and one lie.

 

I have never stated that if you ignore it, it will go away. I have found quite the opposite to be true. In fact from my direct experience I have found that experiencing pain is the wisest path when we have this option available to us. Sometimes we have to go to work soon and function at a high level so it may be better to just take an aspirin, we don't have time and space to deeply experience the pain in a meaningful way. It's not always easy, or fast to break through our own resistance.

 

There is a huge difference between pain and suffering. Having pain, in no way guarantees that one will suffer. The suffering comes entirely from our reaction, our tightening up and resisting the initial pain. In fact if we let go, and simply rest right there in the pain it's true nature will be revealed to us. Not by ignoring it, but rather by turning around and being with it directly, letting go of all our resistance and aversion with the goal of really experiencing the pain directly. Very few people on this planet have felt pain directly, head on, free from their own automatic and unconscious reactions to pain. Great bliss is hidden within this veil of pain, but it can only be known to those who go beyond their resistance. One person can be put in full lotus for ten painful minutes of hell, while another can rest in bliss for hours. One resists the sensations, one lets go and experiences them directly. Far far different from ignoring. Ignoring is just another form of resistance; "I don't want to see or experience it, so I will try to ignore it."

 

 

 

 

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[JustBHappy]

I agree entirely, each and every situation and person is unique and there is always more to it than we are able to perceive.

My friends and family often tell me "you can't save the world" because I usually stop to help random strangers. More and more I am witnessing and participating in scenes that prove the teachings on what was coined 'idiot compassion' by Trungpa Rinpoche. Since we are not enlightened and cannot see karma, it is extremely hard to know if your actions are indeed helping someone, or further entrapping them. It doesn't take long to realize that we are in no place to make judgements.

Just a few weeks ago I was sitting outside at a cafe drinking some coffee. I watched as a gangster punk finished drinking his tea and simply dropped the empty plastic bottle on the road next to his scooter. Well, I didn't jump up to shout at him, nor did I get up and pick up the bottle. I sat there for about five minutes thinking how bad people like that are and what a loser he was. A few minutes later, an old lady pushing a cart filled with cardboard, and plastic, strolled up and happily picked up the bottle. For her it meant more money and she was happy that it was there.

My judgements were clearly limited by the small glimpse of reality that I live in. I could only see the careless litterer at that moment. The big picture is always there, but we only perceive a small portion of it which is always limited by space and time. Without knowing the past/future, and without knowing what is happening in other places, it's impossible to make clear judgements. Until we are realized, the most we can hope for is idiot compassion, which sadly will often do more harm than good regardless of our intentions.

[Jetsun]

 

 

The universe is huge, so perfection must be analyzed at the different levels. The questions are which microcosm and what perfection? Does perfection mean "neat and orderly"? In classical physics, perfection is the observable world where Newton's simple laws operate. At huge distances and high speeds, Einsteinian laws better predict the world. At the atomic level, things tend to be more difficult to analyze and Newton and Einstein encounter trouble. In the subatomic world of quantum physics, things are always messy, b/c quantum behavior bucks cause and effect. In classical Taoism, reality is acausal, and the universe moves by following Tao patterns, without local cause and effect (or Tao is the cause of all things).

 

 

In classical Taoism, human beings have their inborn nature and their ability to follow Tao currents as the gifts to live harmoniously with their surroundings - to follow the higher physical laws, so to speak, but their polarizing minds and external social influence cause disharmony. The emperor would help enforce harmony by projecting a harmonizing field to his people (see Anarchy And A Classical Tao Of Laws). Individually, classical Taoists practice to restore the connection to inborn nature and Tao include:

 

Trance meditation or Awareness meditation

Subliminal meditation

It seems to me that perfection can be observed at all levels, whether it is in the physical scientific laws or the laws which govern the human psyche and health and spiritual laws. What I mean by perfection is that the laws move towards perfect balance so that life as a whole continues, which might result in destruction at times especially of that which opposes the laws, but it is perfect in that there are no mistakes. Although I get what you guys are saying that perfection could be construed as a judgement coming from the mind but I am finding it useful at the moment to go beyond the limitations that mind puts on the world, the main one being that it needs to do something to try to restore balance, when that occurs naturally due to law when the mind stops trying to do and puts faith in the universe rather than trying to make things happen from a perceived view of things being wrong.

 

This taken to its limit I don't think results in inaction, if you see a baby in pain you go and comfort it because your heart calls you to because it is a spontaneous reaction in perfect line with natural law flowing through your heart, if you sit and refuse to do anything then it will cause you suffering because you have resisted the experience.

[silas]

 

This taken to its limit I don't think results in inaction, if you see a baby in pain you go and comfort it because your heart calls you to because it is a spontaneous reaction in perfect line with natural law flowing through your heart, if you sit and refuse to do anything then it will cause you suffering because you have resisted the experience.

 

Religious training can be a powerful thing. If a person truly believes that the world is an illusion, that would actually justify a stoic non-reactive response to someone in danger, who is suffering and in pain. Thus, some Buddhists might train themselves to ignore other people who are imperiled, because

 

1) they argue that other people in mortal danger do not actually exist and should not be helped

2) if the world is true illusion, their own cultivated peace and harmony must take priority.

 

In this excerpt from the Wiki on Reality In Buddhism, the writer confirms that there are two views on the nature of reality in Buddhism: first, everything is actually illusion and second, the concept of illusion only applies against the belief that we are all separate in creation because reality is a manifestation of karmic energy (similar to Taoism's chi-based creation theory). Given the disagreement, I would say that both forms of Buddhism could treat disorder and chaos in the world as illusory and not get involved in movements to stabilize it.

 

• Some consider that the concept of the unreality of "reality" is confusing. They posit that, in Buddhism, the perceived reality is considered illusory not in the sense that reality is a fantasy or unreal, but that our perceptions and preconditions mislead us to believe that we are separate from the elements that we are made of. Reality, in Buddhist thought, would be described as the manifestation of karma^{[citation needed]}.
• Other schools of thought in Buddhism (e.g., Dzogchen), consider perceived reality literally unreal. As a prominent contemporary teacher puts it: "In a real sense, all the visions that we see in our lifetime are like a big dream [...]".^[1] In this context, the term 'visions' denotes not only visual perceptions, but appearances perceived through all senses, including sounds, smells, tastes and tactile sensations, and operations on received mental objects.

Edited June 12, 2013 by silas

[4bsolute]

If the natural laws in the universe are perfect and you are a microcosm of the universe then all efforts and methods to improve yourself are just your own attempts to improve perfection, but that is obviously a foolish thing to try to do and harmony must get restored naturally when you stop believing in imperfection and doing things from that perspective because then you stop resisting the natural laws which are always striving for balance.

 

So what is there to do spiritually except appreciate what you witness and what you are? maybe all problems stem from the belief of imperfection, the belief that man has to improve creation.

 

If the natural laws are not perfect then I expect all life would come to an end due to imbalance.. but that doesn't happen.

 

Very good. This mirrors what Ramana Maharshi said about our laughter regarding all of our past efforts, when we finally understand.

 

My day looks like the following and I know my Higher Self probably is highly entertained all the time: I practice, I struggle, I succeed, I surrender. All of these steps are my patterns in my waking life and in my meditation. I begin with focusing in meditation but sooner or later I just go with the flow and... do nothing. And usually this is where everything happens. Big time, higher, further, wider...

 

Once we met our Higher Self, have the connection - everything is obsolete. Go there, stay there - forget all teachings. This is it. Close this thread, close all spiritual forums no offense.

 

But that is it.

Edited June 12, 2013 by 4bsolute

[WillingToListen]

Very good. This mirrors what Ramana Maharshi said about our laughter regarding all of our past efforts, when we finally understand.

 

My day looks like the following and I know my Higher Self probably is highly entertained all the time: I practice, I struggle, I succeed, I surrender. All of these steps are my patterns in my waking life and in my meditation. I begin with focusing in meditation but sooner or later I just go with the flow and... do nothing. And usually this is where everything happens. Big time, higher, further, wider...

 

Once we met our Higher Self, have the connection - everything is obsolete. Go there, stay there - forget all teachings. This is it. Close this thread, close all spiritual forums no offense.

 

But that is it.

 

Does attaining conversation/union with your HS/HGA really give you that kind of closure? Do you speak from experience?

[4bsolute]

Does attaining conversation/union with your HS/HGA really give you that kind of closure? Do you speak from experience?

 

No, I have no idea. But since you are always connected to your HS, right here and from the beginning... you are just guided more directly without running against walls all the time. Is any realization really real or does everyone of us create a different reality here and now?

 

Who wants to be the first obese enlightened human on this planet, showing all the diet-freaks what is really going on? Including yogies.

 

It really might be all a matter of believes in the end...... everything. Unimmaginable (for me) at this point if that is really true.... if you and others can even sense a tiny bit of what this would mean

 

Remember the Native American shamans who never saw the ships of the Europeans until their shaman showed em that they exist? Initially they were above what they could imagine, so they were invisible. Through his eyes they basicly could see reality.

 

Now, I dont want to disencourage anyone, but... what is real?

 

It seems like it filters down that everything is real and valid. E.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. Unicorns, Spaceships, Sirius, Atlantis, hell, heaven, anarchy, spirituality, chaos, order... no exception, it's all created by us and therefor it exists

Edited June 12, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Marblehead]

It seems like it filters down that everything is real and valid. E.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. Unicorns, Spaceships, Sirius, Atlantis, hell, heaven, anarchy, spirituality, chaos, order... no exception, it's all created by us and therefor it exists

Don't forget my Pegacorns!

[silas]

No, I have no idea. But since you are always connected to your HS, right here and from the beginning... you are just guided more directly without running against walls all the time. Is any realization really real or does everyone of us create a different reality here and now?

 

But if we all have a different reality, is that justification to ignore the homeless man who is being beaten up?

 

If we see a homeless man being hurt, can we just switch to a new reality, a new realization in which we say the homeless man is invisible and doesn't exist. If he doesn't exist, then does he deserve our help at all?

 

 

Remember the Native American shamans who never saw the ships of the Europeans until their shaman showed em that they exist? Initially they were above what they could imagine, so they were invisible. Through his eyes they basicly could see reality.

 

 

Now, I dont want to disencourage anyone, but... what is real?

 

Perhaps you are right about the dying shamans of Native America. I was at the grocery store yesterday, and a man there spoke to me about the Taoist skullcap I was wearing. We came to the topic of Native American religion and I asked if they were still practicing their religion. He told me they had mostly become Catholic.

 

 

It seems like it filters down that everything is real and valid. E.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. Unicorns, Spaceships, Sirius, Atlantis, hell, heaven, anarchy, spirituality, chaos, order... no exception, it's all created by us and therefor it exists

 

Classical Taoists do see everything as real, but they follow the Tao to navigate reality.

[Songtsan]

If perfection is not a universal principle like gravity, force, energy, being, etc. then does it really exist on an ultimate level, or does it exist only in the mind? If for the mind only, then we could say is it perfect according to understanding of the mind's idea of perfection...Ideas however are ephemeral, today's perfection is tomorrows not-so-perfect. Which person is to decide what the perfect ideal is?