Wu Wei = non-decisions, not weighing (no pun intended) options?

[Jainarayan]

It just occurred to me, as long as my understanding of wu wei is correct of course, that our goal is to become able to do without making a decision to do, to just do it (apologies to Nike). I can wear the blue shirt or the white shirt. Do I "decide" or do I just grab one of the shirts? Or does wu wei mean not forcing something to be done? Let's say I want to wear the blue shirt but it has to be washed first. Is that what wu wei is not? These are probably really bad examples, but I think you all get the drift.

 

 

[Jainarayan]

Hmm... maybe this partially or even completely answers my question: http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/june98/tao.html

[Marblehead]

Yep. You found what you were looking for. Nice article.

[Jainarayan]

Good, I'm on the right track.

[Kajenx]

The funny part about your post is that you're worried about how to decide what shirt to pick. Wu Wei means just picking a shirt. ^^ To me, wu wei is efortlessness. It doesn't mean you just plow through life without looking, bouncing off things. It means you don't worry about what you're doing. You'll pick the right shirt if you trust yourself enough to pick a shirt. Even more, if you don't have any intentions or desires, any results are a success. So, wu wei is also the outcome of removing your stake in the world. You win the lottery, good. You lose your house, also good.

 

You can make choices, but they don't come from desires, they come from practicality. When you're hungry, eat. When you're tired, sleep. When it's time to put on a shirt, you'll know what to do.

[Wu Ming Jen]

un-Contrivance, do the dishes without mental clutter and it is meditation, you are not doing the dishes, the dishes are being done, Do what needs to be done.

 

If you are wearing plaid shorts and pick a plaid blue or white shirt don't do it, please don't do it

Edited June 12, 2013 by Wu Ming Jen

[Jainarayan]

...It doesn't mean you just plow through life without looking, bouncing off things. It means you don't worry about what you're doing. ...

 

You can make choices, but they don't come from desires, they come from practicality. When you're hungry, eat. When you're tired, sleep. When it's time to put on a shirt, you'll know what to do.

 

Yes, that's what I got from the article. It's funny how it came at just the right time.

 

un-Contrivance, do the dishes without mental clutter and it is meditation, you are not doing the dishes, the dishes are being done, Do what needs to be done.

 

If you are wearing plaid shorts and pick a plaid blue or white shirt don't do it, please don't do it

 

I thought it was only me... when I'm ironing or doing dishes or something mindless like that, I call it "therapeutic".

 

Not to worry... I wouldn't wear plaid shorts on my worst day!

 

[ion]

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 15

 

The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.

The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.

Because it is unfathomable,

All we can do is describe their appearance.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.

Alert, like men aware of danger.

Courteous, like visiting guests.

Yielding, like ice about to melt.

Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.

Hollow, like caves.

Opaque, like muddy pools.

 

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?

Who can remain still until the moment of action?

Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfilment.

Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

 

 

That middle part doesnt sound like thoughtlessness, going with the flow, and or acting impulsively, are things implied when describing the way of tao.

 

Why would you want to wear this shirt over that shirt? Why would you want to appear a way just because a particular culture finds that that look is suitable. What defines looking good? To a person who is devoted to tao, it is not important and is even a stumbling block to worry about, or try to align your self to a biased nonuniversal view point such as what look looks good. Worrying about looking like a bumb or looking like a dork is not the concerns of a universal being who lives life in accordance with the way.

 

Nor is concerning yourself with worries about money or being concerned about keeping up with the joneses.

 

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsence!

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting not knowing where I am.

Like a new-born babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

 

 

 

 

It is the natural path of anyperson to accept the ways, beliefs, and customs of their culture and to do so without question. This means to accept and integrate the cultures likes, dislikes and preferences starting from the time we are born. It is the "pursuit" of the one on the path with tao, to rid themselves of ideologies and other cultural corruption. Ironicly, the modality by which we assimilate the biases of our culture is an example of becomming/creation by wu wei; it just happens.

 

If it is a persons "aspiration" to emulate the tao then that person will only exert energy when energy is inputted. A person emulating tao, they will remain still and reflective, they will never exert more energy then is given to them. They will use the power of an offensive thing against that thing and never have used up a drop of energy.

 

A good example of wu wei is portrayed in certain martial arts and can be seen clearly in Japanese Samarui movies. The old blind master (lack of primary sense=not stimulated by external locus), is never the first to draw his sword but is always in a state of peace. An ego bent on conquering is antagonized by the blind masters reputation and after trying to fire him up with insults with no results, the ego draws his sword. The blind master who has nothing to prove and no intention to fulfill, being receptive merely reflects the action of the one on the assault. Not one against another, but one accomidating the other. One dominated by discontent and with aspirations of being the top most believes that there are two egos and one is fighting the other, he believes that the "other one" must die in order to validate his self image; the other knows they are one, like a reflection on a mirror and so long as the one guy trys to deliver the other to his death, the tao will grant the wish of the asserter (the objective essence of the attackers wish is that the better man win, that the greatest comes out on top, it is his subjective translatioon of the wish that he himself is in the position of the better man but the old man who desires no conflict and has no competition because he aspires to nothing is in accordance with tao and by default fulfils the role of the better man and greater warrior) by granting victory to the humbler of the "two" who was following tao.

 

Reality was formed by wu wei. The feminine principle whos nature is to be in a state of total rest (nonexistence)and stillness, only comes into action because of the presence of the male principle who is the inverse reflection of the feminine principle and of the same "fabric" but exists as the opposite polarity of the same intansity. Femenine principle is stillness, male principle is action, female principle integrates action and reflects activity, activity is equal to action.

 

If it had taken energy to make the universe, then there would be a limit to its composition and activity equal to what went into it, yet the activity of the universe is inexaustible because it's fundamental nature is infinite emptiness/infinite negative energy; a field of infinite negative energy compared to anything is a vacuum- If anything came into contact with such a potential vacuum, the negative energy would become active as a vacuum relative to the energy contained in and as the thing (matter/thing being condensed energy) and would become active as a vacuum until the enrgy contained in the matter was depleted, and the vacuum would immediately return to a state of rest. Because the feminine principle is infinitely negative energy, the male principle is infinitely positive. Because the energy of the male is infinite, it cant be depleted, because the energy cant be depleted, the activity can not cease. Just like the activity within a mirror only reflects images and activity so long as they are in front of it, but never takes action or does anything.

 

Wu wei is the emulation of the feminine principle. Following tao is to remain in and like the femine principle and to only be drawn into activity by way of the principle of wu wei.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ion

[Gypsy]

[Marblehead]

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
Alert, like men aware of danger.
Courteous, like visiting guests.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools.

 

That middle part doesnt sound like thoughtlessness, going with the flow, and or acting impulsively, are things implied when describing the way of tao.

 

Interesting that you point this out and I will speak to it.

 

 

It is true, this is not wu wei. This is when we must live in the state of "you". That is, we are physically in an unknown environment. We conduct ourself this way so to not disturb those people of whos environment we are in.

 

When we return to a known enfironment we can return to the state of "wu" and attain "wu wei" once again.

 

Our body lives in the "real" world. Different strokes for different folks. We don't want to be strokin' the 'wrong' way when we are in another's company.

 

Lao Tzu never lost contact with the 'real' world throughout the TTC.

 

[Jainarayan]

That's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking to learn, because this is all new to me. I read The Tao of Pooh a long time ago, so long ago I lost the book somewhere packed away in a stored moving box. I got a new copy which I need to start reading, as well as reading the TTC itself, in its entirety, not just jumping around.

 

I suppose it's not unlike what Jesus said in Matthew 6:

 

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

 

In the Bhagavad Gita chapter 4 Krishna says:

 

18 One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in all sorts of activities.

19 One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every act is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker whose fruitive action is burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge.

20 Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.

21 Such a man of understanding acts with mind and intelligence perfectly controlled, gives up all sense of proprietorship over his possessions and acts only for the bare necessities of life. Thus working, he is not affected by sinful reactions.

22 He who is satisfied with gain which comes of its own accord, who is free from duality and does not envy, who is steady both in success and failure, is never entangled, although performing actions.

23 The work of a man who is unattached to the modes of material nature and who is fully situated in transcendental knowledge merges entirely into transcendence.

 

I caught myself "fighting" something this morning. I went to open a new bag of my dogs' dry food, and realized I got a bag of cat food... the labels and colors are similar. I started to get peed off because not only because someone put the bag right next to the dog food I should have gotten, but I was just as careless for assuming I grabbed the right bag. Then I caught myself and said "meh, so just bring it back and get the right one" This is not the end of civilization as we know it.

 

So, I guess I'd do well to remember those verses along with studying and learning the Tao Te Ching.

 

That middle part doesnt sound like thoughtlessness, going with the flow, and or acting impulsively, are things implied when describing the way of tao.

Why would you want to wear this shirt over that shirt? Why would you want to appear a way just because a particular culture finds that that look is suitable. What defines looking good? To a person who is devoted to tao, it is not important and is even a stumbling block to worry about, or try to align your self to a biased nonuniversal view point such as what look looks good. Worrying about looking like a bumb or looking like a dork is not the concerns of a universal being who lives life in accordance with the way. ...

Edited June 14, 2013 by Jainarayan

[Marblehead]

I caught myself "fighting" something this morning. I went to open a new bag of my dogs' dry food, and realized I got a bag of cat food... the labels and colors are similar. I started to get peed off because not only because someone put the bag right next to the dog food I should have gotten, but I was just as careless for assuming I grabbed the right bag. Then I caught myself and said "meh, so just bring it back and get the right one" This is not the end of civilization as we know it.

Or you could just fed your dog the cat food. I'm sure it wouldn't mind too much.

[Jainarayan]

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.

Alert, like men aware of danger.

Courteous, like visiting guests.

Yielding, like ice about to melt.

Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.

Hollow, like caves.

Opaque, like muddy pools.

 

 

That middle part doesnt sound like thoughtlessness, going with the flow, and or acting impulsively, are things implied when describing the way of tao.

 

Interesting that you point this out and I will speak to it.

 

 

It is true, this is not wu wei. This is when we must live in the state of "you". That is, we are physically in an unknown environment. We conduct ourself this way so to not disturb those people of whos environment we are in.

 

When we return to a known enfironment we can return to the state of "wu" and attain "wu wei" once again.

 

Our body lives in the "real" world. Different strokes for different folks. We don't want to be strokin' the 'wrong' way when we are in another's company.

 

Lao Tzu never lost contact with the 'real' world throughout the TTC.

 

So it seems that you use the thoughts and actions appropriate to the situation, as they arise? For example, I am reluctant to visit with my family this weekend because they have a tendency, because I am the youngest and the "oddest", to mock and humiliate me. I'm already preparing for the conversations and my reactions, and would just as soon avoid the whole thing. But this is wrong... it's negative projection. I should cross the proverbial bridge when I come to it, react or not react as the situation warrants.

[Jainarayan]

Or you could just fed your dog the cat food. I'm sure it wouldn't mind too much.

 

That thought crossed my mind. The dogs actually do like cat food. I have to feed the cat on the table or else he'd starve.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Jainarayan

[Marblehead]

So it seems that you use the thoughts and actions appropriate to the situation, as they arise?

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at. Of course, I'm an old man so people just think I am senile.

 

 

For example, I am reluctant to visit with my family this weekend because they have a tendency, because I am the youngest and the "oddest", to mock and humiliate me. I'm already preparing for the conversations and my reactions, and would just as soon avoid the whole thing. But this is wrong... it's negative projection. I should cross the proverbial bridge when I come to it, react or not react as the situation warrants.

Yeah, working with family is difficult. They want you to be like them. Remember, they are right. (But you are right too but keep that to yourself as much as possible.)

[Jainarayan]

The sad part is that I'm almost 56 years old. My eldest brother is 75, next brother is 73, eldest sister is 71, youngest sister is 68. There was a brother between us who died 6 years before I was born, hence the age gap. It's my sisters who rag on me for being "weird". My brothers are easy-going. You'd think the brothers would rag on each other.

 

But this isn't to air family laundry, it's about reactions, which I think I am learning. You are right, I don't have to be right. I can just give a sidelong glance at a comment I don't like and continue with whatever other conversation there is. The right tool for the right job.

[Marblehead]

The right tool for the right job.

Yep.

 

I got a chuckle regarding the ages. One would think they would have become accustomed to you by now. Hehehe.

[Jainarayan]

Meh, simple pleasures for simple minds.

 

If I can actually relate some stories without boring or annoying everyone; they're actually kind of humorous when you think about it and consider the sources...

 

1. I have a tattoo (amongst a few, including ॐ on my right shoulder) of ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ, ancient Greek, "Come take them". At a gathering my youngest sister saw it and said loudly "what the h--- (don't know if those words are allowed) is that?" Instead of saying "oh, it's something meaningful to me", dopey me starts to explain it and the 300 Spartans (I like history and honor the Spartans). I get laughter from my sisters and "Yeah, uh hmm, OK, whatever" and eye rolling. A friend at the house saw it, but didn't catch the conversation. She asked what it was. My sisters put up their hands and said "oh, don't ask!" (more laughter and eye rolling). But the friend found it interesting. I was vindicated.

 

2. I'm relating a Hindu story (it came up on the heels of a discussion of The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe) to a nephew, who was sitting with rapt attention saying "wow, that's really cool". My niece blurts out "so what are you, Buddhist or something?" I glared at her and coldly said "Hindu". More laughter from the sisters with comments like "but where did you come from?" and "you were always strange".

 

3. The piece de resistance... my neck beads... "What are they?" Again, I have to run my mouth and say "They represent Shiva... " Without letting me finish, the response is (are you ready? I mean are you really ready?)...

 

"Oh, so now you're Jewish?"

 

Ye gods! Sometimes I wish I were an only child!

[Marblehead]

"Oh, so now you're Jewish?"

 

Ye gods! Sometimes I wish I were an only child!

Well, apparently you are the only one that lived. (Hehehe. Sorry, I couldn't resist that.)

 

And yes, we can say "What the hell is that?" here. We all are supposed to be adults so we are allowed to use the adult words. Hehehe.

 

I was into Greek mythology when I was young but that passed while I was still a teenager.

[ion]

I realize that the 37 practices of a bohdisattva are not Taoist doctine and this is the Taoist discussion thread, but being that the thread starter has ""If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all."" as their signiture Im going to go ahead and post the thirteenth practice as a paralell to the the expert in chapter 15 of TTC;

 

Without prajna, the five preceding virtues cannot be called 'paramita' (excellent, perfect) and are incapable of leading us to Buddhahood. To have the right view which perceives that the one who acts, the act, and the one for whom we act completely lack inherent existence is a practice of the bodhisattva.

 

 

 

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
Alert, like men aware of danger.
Courteous, like visiting guests.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools.

 

And reiterate my point that you cant give your mind and actions/activities over to randomness as an approach to or an expression of wu wei.

 

Pranja is wisdom. The thirteenth practice basicly translates to "without wisdom, enlightenment can not be had."

 

Heres another exert from TTC

 

He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.

This sort of implies, at least to my understanding that there is more to wu wei then abandoning self discipline, will, self control, focus and all the other faculties of mind over to randomness and chaos.

[Jainarayan]

I think it's good to make comparisons, because to me, it underscores that there are universal truths. They just have different names, as the rest of my signature says. Not to mention that they are different examples of the same concept, the "in other words" to explain something.

[ion]

I think it's good to make comparisons, because to me, it underscores that there are universal truths. They just have different names, as the rest of my signature says. Not to mention that they are different examples of the same concept, the "in other words" to explain something.

I couldnt agree more. Different people, different cultures taking note on unique obdervations of the same thing/phenomenon.

[ChiForce]

I realize that the 37 practices of a bohdisattva are not Taoist doctine and this is the Taoist discussion thread, but being that the thread starter has ""If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all."" as their signiture Im going to go ahead and post the thirteenth practice as a paralell to the the expert in chapter 15 of TTC;

 

 

 

 

And reiterate my point that you cant give your mind and actions/activities over to randomness as an approach to or an expression of wu wei.

 

Pranja is wisdom. The thirteenth practice basicly translates to "without wisdom, enlightenment can not be had."

 

Heres another exert from TTC

 

This sort of implies, at least to my understanding that there is more to wu wei then abandoning self discipline, will, self control, focus and all the other faculties of mind over to randomness and chaos.

I think it has more to do with our wisdom and the ability to perceive nature as such (in a social environment it would be the law governing the human minds and consciousness). Then, you act with this law in mind. If your mind is dull and does not have the wisdom to see the phenomena as they are and as they are unfolding, you can't act without acting.

[Kajenx]

Ye gods! Sometimes I wish I were an only child!

 

@Jainarayan: I consider my family to be patience practice. No one is better at telling people they're wrong than my Mother. ^^

 

I've noticed that nothing disarms sarcasm better than kindness, though. If you smile at people mocking you, their negativity will pass right through. I have a sheet of paper I read every day. It's a set of habits I'm trying to form (at the top I wrote "For Freedom" as in freeing yourself from your mind and environment :3), and the one that's both the hardest and the most effective is: "Remain yourself around dominant personalities." Negativity is a powerful emotional force, I think. It sweeps everyone up around it, but if you can maintain your calm within in, it dissipates pretty quickly. I think people don't want to be negative; it's just a habit we all have. So if you're happy in spite of the negativity around you, you become the dominant personality and people will try to emulate you instead.

 

The oddest part is, you just have to remember it. It isn't hard at all. You'll encounter a negative person and begin to feel negative yourself, then you'll suddenly remember, "Oh, this isn't my mind making these feelings," and you just step outside the virtual 'zone of conflict' if you will. Sometimes it's kind of funny, because you can see it hanging over everyone, and you'll be like this little island floating in the middle of it. Kind of like Plato's cave. People who are drowning swim for dry land, though, so it doesn't last long, and when everyone else has pulled themself out, you'll know you were the one who helped them.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Kajenx

[Jainarayan]

Thanks. It's true that a smile is usually disarming and steals their thunder. I think the writers of the Star Trek series were reading the Tao Te Ching when they came up with "Resistance is futile". Because it is. It's forcing the issue, which is not the Tao way.

 

We had a gathering on Father's Day (June 16th for the non-Yanks). Actually there was nothing I could eat, being gluten intolerant and trying my hardest to stay vegetarian. This is an Italian-American family that can no more go without meatballs than humans can exist without breathing. I essentially had to pass on everything... the lasagna (wheat & meat), the meatballs, sausage, Italian style cod fish, and the piece de resistance... London broil. After especially passing on the London broil I got (you have to see this coming)...

 

"So now you worship cows!?" I calmly said, "no I don't worship them, but I don't eat them either". I got a "well what can you eat?" I said "not much today" and started a new conversation having nothing to do with food directing it away from my religious eccentricities. Family can indeed put one to the test. However, my sarcasm aside, the entire episode points out how we as a culture put so much emphasis on food and materialism.