Attaining Emptiness - constant Reduction?

[4bsolute]

Dear Ones,

 

I am at a point where I want to understand what man ment by 'emptiness'... more than just the spiritual theory of having an empty mind. Since approaching this with the mind can not be understood... or sensed, whatever is more precise.

 

Simple: Is attaining emptiness a form of constant reduction?

 

For example when I sit in meditation and suddenly feel overwhelmingly lonely due to my previous reduction of things around me, than this perceived loneliness is actually a good thing, because it states that I am about to discard a bias what I previously thought of where I would go, again having done this from my mind?

 

Overcoming boredom and then loneliness seem to be the two first main obstacles for us spoiled "Westerners" /EDIT great I have just figured out there are apparently 6 kinds of known loneliness

 

So basicly only my senses kept me from not continuing this meditation, the mental-chains that we have build up...

 

I hope this is understandable.

 

Kind regards.

Edited June 14, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Jeff]

Hi 4bsolute,

 

You are somewhat correct, but the issue in the way that you describe it is that it can be a never ending iterative loop. It is more of a fundamental shift.

 

 

Whey you find your own intrinsic awareness, it basically involves three things:

 

1. Memories are clear and quiet, leave no trace or feelings behind.

2. Thoughts about the future are fresh and unaffected by anything from the past.

3. And in the present moment, when your mind remains in its natural state without constructing anything, awareness, at that moment seems ordinary.

 

And when you look into yourself in this way nakedly (without any voices or random thoughts), since there is only this pure observing, there should be a lucid clarity without anyone being there who is the observer or watching; only a clear awareness is present.

 

This awareness is empty and completely pure, not being created by anything whatsoever. But, this realization is not enlightenment, it is more the beginning...

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

If you are talking about Buddhist emptiness, realizing emptiness mean you did karmamudra or tummo and are on the first bhumi and have special powers.

[skydog]

Theme 5.2 1/03/13

EMPTY MIND

__________________________________________________________________________________________

In spiritual circles, the word "emptiness" is often thrown out as a buzzword for the state of enlightenment, non-duality, wisdom, etc. But emptiness can be understood in many ways. For some, emptiness means that life is inherently empty. These people adopt a pessimistic view. So what if you got into graduate school? So what if you finally found the love of your life? So what if you finally beat a chronic health problem that's been nagging you forever? It's all empty. We will all eventually get old, sick and die. Because of this, we should just focus on getting out of the world.

To me, this view is still relatively transcendent compared to what most people think. Most people think that getting into graduate school will give them a true education. They believe that finally a companion will leave them complete and there is nothing left to do in this world. They believe that just because they are no longer physically sick all their other life problems will be solved.

Both views are extreme. The true beauty of emptiness is not believing life is inherently empty, or that our existence is completely "full." The real beauty comes from having a empty mind. An empty mind is essentially a neutral mind that can embrace all things. It achieves this by not placing value judgments on everyone and everything that comes into view. We don't automatically say this is good, or this is bad.

And this type of attitude allows you to play life at its own pace. You have goals in life, but if they don't go as plan, you're still okay. You can enjoy life, but you know your enjoyment is the not the most important thing. You can be happy for no reason, even if it rains -- the rain can be fun, too! To me, this is the most constructive attitude.

Yet you cannot fake or pretend to have an empty mind. An empty mind comes from understanding one thing. "As long as my spirit is pure and intact, I'll be okay."

.

[Republic Of Zen]

The majority of your body is made of empty space. Feel this emptyness. You have a specific part of your brain that senses emptyness. The more aware of emptines you become, the more vibrant small amounts of energy become.

[silas]

Try wu-wei awareness training to completely empty your mind (the flute meditation part only to refine your connection to Tao).

Edited June 14, 2013 by silas

[baiqi]

Good question. I wouldsay yes, it is all about reducing. But reducing implies increasing of other things (you have this idea in the Yi jing)

 

What is "emptiness", and reducing of what?

[joeblast]

Dear Ones,

 

I am at a point where I want to understand what man ment by 'emptiness'... more than just the spiritual theory of having an empty mind. Since approaching this with the mind can not be understood... or sensed, whatever is more precise.

 

Simple: Is attaining emptiness a form of constant reduction?

 

For example when I sit in meditation and suddenly feel overwhelmingly lonely due to my previous reduction of things around me, than this perceived loneliness is actually a good thing, because it states that I am about to discard a bias what I previously thought of where I would go, again having done this from my mind?

 

Overcoming boredom and then loneliness seem to be the two first main obstacles for us spoiled "Westerners" /EDIT great I have just figured out there are apparently 6 kinds of known loneliness

 

So basicly only my senses kept me from not continuing this meditation, the mental-chains that we have build up...

 

I hope this is understandable.

 

Kind regards.

Restrain the senses and that directly reduces the amount of cranial nerve stimulation, which directly leads to a quieter mind. Until you're able to drop the flow of air beneath the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways and KEEP THAT for quite a significant portion of the meditation, then "emptiness" is superficial.

 

Rote anapana is a pain of a path to get there but I honestly dont see a more robust way to establish this. When I first established that it literally was 3 months of nightly 1-2 hr meditations just trying to execute a perfect breath and troubleshooting why I was being prevented from "getting there" and getting my breaths up over a minute in length.

 

You really wont understand how much mental noise gets generated by all that cranial nerve activity until you've done the training and attained the quiescence.

 

Let go of the air passages completely, do not use them to facilitate breath.

 

Descend the diaphragm from the lower rear attachment, keep descending to the dantien for the duration of inhale.

 

Focus on the harmony of the diaphragm, psoas, perineum...and the front of the abdomen - investigate each of them separately and find the point in the motion where the energetic maximum is,

 

Then time them all to be coincident.

 

(coincident about the lower dantien)

 

Work until the flow of air is very fine, to the point where you no longer need to use the front of the abdomen.

 

(but the front is good to use even after that in preparing for utter and complete stillness, so you give the prayer wheel a few turns before just watching it turn so to speak...think embryonic breathing, establishing energetics with that, then roll on into longevity breathing.)

 

Bring the focus of awareness in to the niwan and gather it there, gently, gently, no force, just like a light on a pedestal in the middle of a room.

 

Then connect the upper potential with the lower dantien potential, "finding the sunlight in the chamber of water."

 

The muscle memory established by the rote method ensures those good mechanics continue even after you've stopped worrying about them - but it is good to keep up on the muscle memory for a bit each session to help keep it subconsciously ingrained.

 

Once it grows to your skin, beyond your body, beyond space and time...

 

what is boredom? what is loneliness? you will laugh at the fetters you once had.

[ChiDragon]

Good question. I wouldsay yes, it is all about reducing. But reducing implies increasing of other things (you have this idea in the Yi jing)

 

What is "emptiness", and reducing of what?

 

In the Taoist practice, "emptiness" is to have the mind in a state of serenity, quietness, or tranquility. "Reducing" is to alleviate the unwanted desires or ill will.

[baiqi]

Thanks. In that regard, I'd definitely answer yes to the question asked by 4bsolute.

[4bsolute]

Restrain the senses and that directly reduces the amount of cranial nerve stimulation, which directly leads to a quieter mind. Until you're able to drop the flow of air beneath the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways and KEEP THAT for quite a significant portion of the meditation, then "emptiness" is superficial.

 

Rote anapana is a pain of a path to get there but I honestly dont see a more robust way to establish this. When I first established that it literally was 3 months of nightly 1-2 hr meditations just trying to execute a perfect breath and troubleshooting why I was being prevented from "getting there" and getting my breaths up over a minute in length.

 

You really wont understand how much mental noise gets generated by all that cranial nerve activity until you've done the training and attained the quiescence.

 

Let go of the air passages completely, do not use them to facilitate breath.

 

Descend the diaphragm from the lower rear attachment, keep descending to the dantien for the duration of inhale.

 

Focus on the harmony of the diaphragm, psoas, perineum...and the front of the abdomen - investigate each of them separately and find the point in the motion where the energetic maximum is,

 

Then time them all to be coincident.

 

(coincident about the lower dantien)

 

Work until the flow of air is very fine, to the point where you no longer need to use the front of the abdomen.

 

(but the front is good to use even after that in preparing for utter and complete stillness, so you give the prayer wheel a few turns before just watching it turn so to speak...think embryonic breathing, establishing energetics with that, then roll on into longevity breathing.)

 

Bring the focus of awareness in to the niwan and gather it there, gently, gently, no force, just like a light on a pedestal in the middle of a room.

 

Then connect the upper potential with the lower dantien potential, "finding the sunlight in the chamber of water."

 

The muscle memory established by the rote method ensures those good mechanics continue even after you've stopped worrying about them - but it is good to keep up on the muscle memory for a bit each session to help keep it subconsciously ingrained.

 

Once it grows to your skin, beyond your body, beyond space and time...

 

what is boredom? what is loneliness? you will laugh at the fetters you once had.

 

Good

 

What you have found out might be the forced way of getting "there"... This is a natural process in meditation, that at a certain point you do no longer breathe a physical breath, which might follow. Reducing the air element. Regarding Hinduism: We have pranic breahting tubes in our bodies. And during meditation I have felt one of these. If you can feel them, they feel literally like a perfect, thin tube with 2-3cm diameter.

 

And this is not ment to be superficial! The breath Is related to the air-element. For example when we fast, we reduce the earth element in ourselves and that means our energies can rise up higher and we are more sensitive to other elements.

 

Could this be a transition to the Wind Pathway in Taoism?

 

A question to you regarding tongue position: Since the standard position on the front of the upper palet is said to be related to the Wind Pathway - does a tongue position on the Water Point (behind at the softspot, you can look it up) bring you there much easier?

 

And why Water? What is up with the water element?

 

 

Hi 4bsolute,

 

You are somewhat correct, but the issue in the way that you describe it is that it can be a never ending iterative loop. It is more of a fundamental shift.

 

 

Whey you find your own intrinsic awareness, it basically involves three things:

 

1. Memories are clear and quiet, leave no trace or feelings behind.

2. Thoughts about the future are fresh and unaffected by anything from the past.

3. And in the present moment, when your mind remains in its natural state without constructing anything, awareness, at that moment seems ordinary.

 

And when you look into yourself in this way nakedly (without any voices or random thoughts), since there is only this pure observing, there should be a lucid clarity without anyone being there who is the observer or watching; only a clear awareness is present.

 

This awareness is empty and completely pure, not being created by anything whatsoever. But, this realization is not enlightenment, it is more the beginning...

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

Thank you, Jeff.

 

The loop can only be a loop for the mind. The yang aspect of our brain is all about logic. When we approach higher plains with logic... if we could... like the founder this particular institute in the US I believe it was, who mainstreamed the audible brainwave frequencies (forgot his name) once did at night in his journeys, we would aswell see a loop in everything that happens. And his mind got bored in one of the plains where he heard music. But he did understand later. And that only because our brain is not yet able to perceive 4D and above. That means our dualistic nature has to become gradually unified to understand more of the nature of the universe.

 

If someone is bored, you really should be able to shoot him up into a higher dimension and let him perceive it for 5seconds and then bring him down. He will chew on that for his lifetime

 

I have initially created this thread after I have read the very first of these Buddhist Suttras: http://buddhasutra.com/files/Buddhist_Sutra_A1.pdf it's called A Little Spell of Emptiness

 

Have fun reading it and thank you all for posting.

Edited June 15, 2013 by 4bsolute

[4bsolute]

Try wu-wei awareness training to completely empty your mind (the flute meditation part only to refine your connection to Tao).

 

Thank you, I will look further into it.

 

I read "mystic aspect of wu-wei" ... hopefully the author is not caught in the mystic aspect of the wu-wei, because this simply would mean that he has not yet understood that everything we perceive as mystic or magical is a lack of understanding / wisdom. It's nothing bad, it just wants to be understood in all it's beauty

Edited June 15, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Jeff]

Hi 4bsolute,

 

Thank you for the link to "A little spell of emptiness". It is excellent, and in simple terms describes my path.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[silas]

Thank you, I will look further into it.

 

I read "mystic aspect of wu-wei" ... hopefully the author is not caught in the mystic aspect of the wu-wei, because this simply would mean that he has not yet understood that everything we perceive as mystic or magical is a lack of understanding / wisdom. It's nothing bad, it just wants to be understood in all it's beauty

 

4bsolute, I'm not sure I get your meaning. Do you mean that everything we perceive is an illusion?

 

In other words, when you say "lack of understanding", are you saying that everything has no understanding because it does not exist? This then is similar to Buddhist belief. If everything is an illusion, then so are widsom and beauty. And so is suffering and pain. And so is compassion also an illusion.

 

Or do you mean that magical and mystical things aren't really magical or mystical if only we could figure it out - like with science? Classical Taoism has no conflict with science.

Edited June 15, 2013 by silas

[Vmarco]

 

In spiritual circles, the word "emptiness" is often thrown out as a buzzword for the state of enlightenment, non-duality, wisdom, etc. But emptiness can be understood in many ways. For some, emptiness means that life is inherently empty. ....

 

The true beauty of emptiness is not believing life is inherently empty, or that our existence is completely "full." The real beauty comes from having a empty mind. An empty mind is essentially a neutral mind that can embrace all things. It achieves this by not placing value judgments on everyone and everything that comes into view. We don't automatically say this is good, or this is bad.

 

Yet you cannot fake or pretend to have an empty mind. An empty mind comes from understanding one thing. "As long as my spirit is pure and intact, I'll be okay."

 

Love the name "SkyDog"....I love Dakini's, Guruda's, Butterfies, Phonices, all metaphors of sky goddesses (Nut, Isis, Inanna, Ishtar, Shekhina, Lilith, Vajrayogini, Yeshe Tsogyel ) and the Prajna underlying all Means.

 

To 4bsolute....get a copy of The Heart Attack Sutra, by Karl Brunnholzl,...and disregard all the above posts.

 

Second,...Is attaining emptiness a form of constant reduction?

 

Let's break it down. Emptiness is not attained, it is unveiled from the barriers you have built against it. The perception of constant reduction is how ego sees the unlearning process. True Emptiness is actually realized through the simultaneous cancellation of opposites. Yang cannot be separated from Yin.

 

Wholeness is beyond the sum of all opposites.

 

SkyDog,...yes, perceived life is as inherently empty as last nights dream. Although I don't care for the term "empty mind"...because neither empty nor mind has a clear meaning among caterpillars attempting to discuss butterfies,...I do recognize your point,...at least partially.

 

An enlightened person once gave 6 words of advice:

Let go of what has passed.

Let go of what may come.

Let go of what is happening now.

Don’t try to figure anything out.

Don’t try to make anything happen.

Relax, right now, and rest.

 

Contrary to Jeff's New Age opinions above, one does not uncover emptiness through the senses, thoughts, or feelings,...as if those skandhas can actually observe the Present. Senses, thoughts, and feeling can NEVER observe the Present,...and thus will NEVER realize True Emptiness.

 

Senses, Thoughts, Feelings...come and go,...that's what they do,....they witness the illusion of change in motion. To realize the nature, so to say, of emptiness,...we must let go of attachment to senses, thoughts, feelings,...which includes the cerebro-centric mind,...whether empty or not.

[Vmarco]

Hi 4bsolute,

 

Thank you for the link to "A little spell of emptiness". It is excellent, and in simple terms describes my path.

 

How can you honestly say that? I've seen no indication in your posts that being "present" is part of your path at all.

 

Your path, according to your posts, is a sensual, thoughtful, feeling path,...as far removed from liberation as necessary to conceal the Present.

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara (Shurangama sutra)

[skydog]

 

 

Love the name "SkyDog"....I love Dakini's, Guruda's, Butterfies, Phonices, all metaphors of sky goddesses (Nut, Isis, Inanna, Ishtar, Shekhina, Lilith, Vajrayogini, Yeshe Tsogyel ) and the Prajna underlying all Means.

 

To 4bsolute....get a copy of The Heart Attack Sutra, by Karl Brunnholzl,...and disregard all the above posts.

 

Second,...Is attaining emptiness a form of constant reduction?

 

Let's break it down. Emptiness is not attained, it is unveiled from the barriers you have built against it. The perception of constant reduction is how ego sees the unlearning process. True Emptiness is actually realized through the simultaneous cancellation of opposites. Yang cannot be separated from Yin.

 

Wholeness is beyond the sum of all opposites.

 

SkyDog,...yes, perceived life is as inherently empty as last nights dream. Although I don't care for the term "empty mind"...because neither empty nor mind has a clear meaning among caterpillars attempting to discuss butterfies,...I do recognize your point,...at least partially.

 

An enlightened person once gave 6 words of advice:

Let go of what has passed.

Let go of what may come.

Let go of what is happening now.

Don’t try to figure anything out.

Don’t try to make anything happen.

Relax, right now, and rest.

 

Contrary to Jeff's New Age opinions above, one does not uncover emptiness through the senses, thoughts, or feelings,...as if those skandhas can actually observe the Present. Senses, thoughts, and feeling can NEVER observe the Present,...and thus will NEVER realize True Emptiness.

 

Senses, Thoughts, Feelings...come and go,...that's what they do,....they witness the illusion of change in motion. To realize the nature, so to say, of emptiness,...we must let go of attachment to senses, thoughts, feelings,...which includes the cerebro-centric mind,...whether empty or not.

 

Yes...I am skydog...lol

 

cool stuff.

 

hmmm dont feel like a discussion to be honest.

 

But heres my blog lol some art

 

http://poemsofsinan.blogspot.co.uk/

Edited June 16, 2013 by skydog

[RongzomFan]

To 4bsolute....get a copy of The Heart Attack Sutra, by Karl Brunnholzl,...and disregard all the above posts.

 

The best book of Karl Brunnholzl is "Center of the Sunlit Sky".

[Vmarco]

 

Yes...I am skydog...lol

 

cool stuff.

 

hmmm dont feel like a discussion to be honest.

 

But heres my blog lol some art

 

Nice. I used to live in Puerto Vallarta, and had several Spray Paint Art friends,...it's an awesome process. As I'm partial to sunflowers, they made me several pieces for gifts over time.

 

My favorite Tao text is the Hua Hu Ching,...have you read it?

[Vmarco]

 

The best book of Karl Brunnholzl is "Center of the Sunlit Sky".

I'm quite partial to Brunnholzl' "Gone Beyond,"...I like the academic structure and content. The Heart Attack Sutra (IMO) is surprisingly accessible for newbees.

[RongzomFan]

My signature explains emptiness.

[Vmarco]

Surely,...There is no arising, duration and cessation,...but who, attached to their 6 senses for their identity, will comprehend even 1% of that?

[RongzomFan]

Whats so hard?

 

In Madhyamaka, dependently originated phenomena never arise in the first place.

[Flolfolil]

what is a basic description of what one would experience? it is so easy to just say "you can't", but if you really couldn't experience things outside of the senses then you wouldn't have so many people talking and writing about it.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Flolfolil

[Vmarco]

it is so easy to just say "you can't", but if you really couldn't experience things outside of the senses then you wouldn't have so many people talking and writing about it.

 

Yes,...there would have been no need of the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Mahasiddhas talking (and having those talks written down).

 

As for Madhyamaka,...I'd also recommend Brunnholzl,...not a good subject for those not really ready for waking up,...which doesn't mean that those who do, will wake up.