Attaining Emptiness - constant Reduction?

[4bsolute]

4bsolute, I'm not sure I get your meaning. Do you mean that everything we perceive is an illusion?

 

In other words, when you say "lack of understanding", are you saying that everything has no understanding because it does not exist? This then is similar to Buddhist belief. If everything is an illusion, then so are widsom and beauty. And so is suffering and pain. And so is compassion also an illusion.

 

Or do you mean that magical and mystical things aren't really magical or mystical if only we could figure it out - like with science? Classical Taoism has no conflict with science.

 

Good question.

 

From the current point of my evolution (and I honestly always want to add that, because this all changes so fast lately) that everything you see on this world is an illusion. But not a bad one. It's like a giant holo-deck. Remember them from some movies or games? This is nothing too fictional, because your mind "can" understand it that way for the moment.

 

If you can see through the atmosphere you breathe here, you would see endless space. The image infront of you showing a street, your garden etc would crumble or vanish and either everything or nothing would be infront of you. Whatever you then choose, whatever your perception is able to perceive and in what frequency your overall being currently is, here on earth.

 

Vibrations play a huge roll. In order to understand other dimensions, we must vibrate in the same manner as these dimensions in order to perceive them.

 

What I have witnessed, is that people who have either had trouble in this world or "want" to see beyond but can not do so yet, call this world an illusion. But technically everything then would be an illusion until you are drinking coffee with Source itself.

 

But that would mean that everything that has ever been created by Tao/Source is an illusion. And that is just offending Tao/Source is pure life and what it radiates and creates is life aswell. And life is an illusion? That notion is ALWAYS stated on this planet by humans who are frustrated or cynical.

 

The terms magic and mystic were created to bridge something "not yet fully understandable". The bridge then disappears when you understand the elementary concept behind it. For example how teleportation will work for someone, when he "accidently" achieved that siddhi. 99,9% of the people who would see him teleporting would call it magic or mystic. But to him it is just as normal as to be able to breath that what we call air.

 

These terms are obsolete when you understand the concept behind it. And from my current point of view it is "just" an understanding of how elements and energies work together.

 

In that sense, words are just a crutch. Like meditation. You need it for sometime, and then you can walk again without it. Forever.

 

Did that help?

Edited June 16, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Jeff]

How can you honestly say that? I've seen no indication in your posts that being "present" is part of your path at all.

 

Your path, according to your posts, is a sensual, thoughtful, feeling path,...as far removed from liberation as necessary to conceal the Present.

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara (Shurangama sutra)

Hi Vmarco,

 

Then you may have misunderstood me. As my picture has always said, my path always been "focused on the moment".

 

Also, as I have said in many posts, I completely agree with you quote from the Shurangma sutra. For me, it was just listening. If you look back, I think you will find that I have often made that recommendation to members.

 

This difference is that I have found multiple excellent traditions that use primordial (present moment) techniques. Most are older than the time of Buddha, but I know you love to call them "new age".

 

Best wishes on your path.

[Vmarco]

Then you may have misunderstood me. As my picture has always said, my path always been "focused on the moment".

 

Also, as I have said in many posts, I completely agree with you quote from the Shurangma sutra. For me, it was just listening. If you look back, I think you will find that I have often made that recommendation to members.

 

This difference is that I have found multiple excellent traditions that use primordial (present moment) techniques. Most are older than the time of Buddha, but I know you love to call them "new age".

Thanks for sharing that. No,...what you describe above would not be considered New Age,...New Age is more the idea that the Present can be, and should only be, experienced through the 6 senses.

 

As for New ager,...I generally agree with an Oklahoman who said (lengthy but interesting):

 

"To dare to even speak about radical transformation, let alone call other people to a higher level, is against the unstated rules. And of course, one's definitely going to be put in one's place for doing something like that. But unless the possibility of genuine transformation is actually declared, unless one is willing to demonstrate it publicallyand to call other people to the same, no one is even going to know that it's possible. And than unknowingly, everybody's going to be participating in the conspiracy of mediocrity.

 

The conspiracy of mediocrity is basically the conspiracy to express your own ego instead of transcending it or letting go of it. The idea has become "if I can really emote and express my self-contriction with sincerity, I'm somehow spiritual". Actually, people who are involved in this boomeritis even deny the importance of Enlightenment or Awakening, because that's saying some states are higher than others - and we shouldn't be so judgemental. But guess what? Some states are higher. And so the entire raison d'etre gets tossed out because it offends the pluralistist ego.

 

The spiritual experience, which ideally should be a stepping stone to less ego and greater transparency, has become a victim of our therapeutic culture, where we don't make judgements because that would hurt egoic self-esteem, and so all we do is embrace, console, and celebrate the personal self. Spiritual practice has become nothing more than a form of therapy where self-acceptance rather than ego-transcendence is the goal. And the problem is that therapists are basically pimps for samsara. They want to hold onto the egoic self-contraction and make it feel good about itself.

 

This conspiracy of mediocrity is very unfortunate. The great promise of the human potential movement was very straightforward - there are higher human potentials. Now, from the therapeutic culture, people say, "wait a minute. you're saying there are higher potentials, so does that mean I'm lower? because that can't be right". All of a sudden it implied a judgement, and nobody's allowed to be higher because that means someone else is going to be lower. And you're not allowed to call anybody lower; therefore nobody's allowed to be higher.

 

So the Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptence movement, which catastrophically prevents higher transformation and mystical breakthroughs. What is missing in the New Age Community is real intellectual vigor. Under the therapeutic culture, if you feel good, you're enlightened. That is mediocrity, and a conspiracy toward mediocrity.”

 

In our current therapeutic society people don't want to see that what they thought was meaningful may actually be meaningless.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Vmarco

[Jetsun]

Is there any difference between understanding emptiness and understanding dependent origination?

[RongzomFan]

As for Madhyamaka,...I'd also recommend Brunnholzl,...not a good subject for those not really ready for waking up,...which doesn't mean that those who do, will wake up.

 

 

Madhyamaka is the definitive sutra teaching. That's the opinion of all the Indian professors such as Atisa, Kamalsila, Śāntarakṣita etc.

 

Its not something that can be brushed aside.

[RongzomFan]

Is there any difference between understanding emptiness and understanding dependent origination?

 

In Madhyamaka, D.O. is merely a device that gets you to nonarising.

 

In Dzogchen, there is a different device that gets you to nonarising, since there is no dependent origination there.

 

Instead of worrying about all the philosophy, you can just learn the 8 examples of illusion: dream, mirage, reflection etc.

[RongzomFan]

Everything is illusion. Concepts make things seem real.

[Flolfolil]

if you feel the need to undermine someone elses happiness, imo, you are pretty darn far from any kind of spiritual breakthrough. Perhaps ask yourself where this need to shit on other people arises from.

[skydog]

 

Nice. I used to live in Puerto Vallarta, and had several Spray Paint Art friends,...it's an awesome process. As I'm partial to sunflowers, they made me several pieces for gifts over time.

 

My favorite Tao text is the Hua Hu Ching,...have you read it?

 

Cool...synchronistic..I am looking to move to Puerto Vallarta. Thats nice of them. You must have enjoyed living there?

 

I see, I havent read that book. I rarely read books anymore as I feel it engages my mind rather than my spirit, I download information during Intuitive movement/meditation, and occasionally synchronistically open a book to the right spot or come across some cool information. However I am always open to looking at books and learning, so may decided to have a read.

 

For the issue of transparency I didnt write that. I copied and pasted it from the group meditation section of this site which thetaoiseasy wrote.

 

I also believe that the view "everything is an illusion" can be helpful for some, but can also be somewhat negative, and perhaps a little inaccurate seeing as all beliefs are partially correct and partially innaccurate.

 

But that is just my own view, I live in the world and have spent 24 hours a day in meditation before but I feel that this is too extreme, and depressing.

[Flolfolil]

"i don't need to care about peoples feelings because they are full of shit and I am on the TRUE path to enlightenment" Senses are an illusion? Then how have you come to any of the conclusions you have come to? You must be a higher being, and the nasty material world is just shit on your shoe.

[silas]

>>4bsolute, I'm not sure I get your meaning. Do you mean that everything we perceive is an illusion? ...

>>Or do you mean that magical and mystical things aren't really magical or mystical if only we could figure it out - like with science?

 

Good question.

 

From the current point of my evolution (and I honestly always want to add that, because this all changes so fast lately) that everything you see on this world is an illusion. But not a bad one. It's like a giant holo-deck... Whatever you then choose, whatever your perception is able to perceive and in what frequency your overall being currently is, here on earth....

 

My problem with seeing the whole world as an illusion is that it can turn people into insular monks who forsake the world for their own peace of mind. Can you help me with this question:

 

Let's say there is some homeless man being kicked and tortured on the street by some big, muscular thug. If we all can perceive a different reality, is that justification to ignore the homeless man and walk away, because it might risk injury or life? Or if we want to help, can we just yell to him "Your pain and suffering are an illusion" to "enlighten" him and allow him to be beaten to a pulp?

 

If we go to help the homeless man physically (by, say, interposing our body to shield him) we risk disharmony and harm to ourselves to interfere with an illusory situation. Why not just switch to a new reality, a new realization in which we say the homeless man is invisible and doesn't exist. If he doesn't exist, then why bother helping him? There is no ethical concern in leaving him because doctrine says it's all illusion.

 

.

The terms magic and mystic were created to bridge something "not yet fully understandable".... These terms are obsolete when you understand the concept behind it. And from my current point of view it is "just" an understanding of how elements and energies work together.

 

In that sense, words are just a crutch. Like meditation. You need it for sometime, and then you can walk again without it. Forever.

 

4bsolute, are you saying that Mystical wu-wei is mystical only because we don't understand it, correct?

 

In classical Taoism, we connect to Tao most consistently being in a persistent meditative state. That is, you never get rid of meditation ever, because you end up living in it.

Edited June 16, 2013 by silas

[Vmarco]

Cool...synchronistic..I am looking to move to Puerto Vallarta. Thats nice of them. You must have enjoyed living there?

 

I

 

For me, Puerto Vallarta area can be a transformational place. The spray artists are quite spiritual, and part of an extended family who actually live in Las Juntas (above Tomatlan),...it's a beautiful area, with cascades and great places to hike.

 

If you move there, connect with Miguel Angel Sosa, who is the director of al Instituto para el Desarrollo Armonico del Ser Humano, a Fourth Way school in Puerto Vallarta.

 

Outwardly, Vallarta appears to be a party place, mostly for obnoxious Americans,...but behind that is an exciting spiritual community. I even knew, rather well, a woman who was personally connected with Don Juan Matus. Remember, Ixtlan is not far away.

 

Have fun.

[skydog]

For me, Puerto Vallarta area can be a transformational place. The spray artists are quite spiritual, and part of an extended family who actually live in Las Juntas (above Tomatlan),...it's a beautiful area, with cascades and great places to hike.

 

If you move there, connect with Miguel Angel Sosa, who is the director of al Instituto para el Desarrollo Armonico del Ser Humano, a Fourth Way school in Puerto Vallarta.

 

Outwardly, Vallarta appears to be a party place, mostly for obnoxious Americans,...but behind that is an exciting spiritual community. I even knew, rather well, a woman who was personally connected with Don Juan Matus. Remember, Ixtlan is not far away.

 

Have fun.

 

Thanks for the information, VMarco sounds great, hope your enjoying Chiang Mai

 

cheers

[Vmarco]

Thanks for the information, VMarco sounds great, hope your enjoying Chiang Mai

 

cheers

 

As matter of fact I am.

 

Tell Miguel (and the spray painters,...especially Vero) that Vicente said hi.

[ChiForce]

Is not attaining emptiness because we, the universe, is fundamentally empty. You try to to become awakened to the fundamental nature of the universe and your existence AS empty. The fear and loneliness you sensed is the result of afflictions caused by your mind and mental conception. That's not emptiness. Once you have arrived to any sense of emptiness, you would experience samadhi to a certain degree.

[C T]

Is not attaining emptiness because we, the universe, is fundamentally empty. You try to to become awakened to the fundamental nature of the universe and your existence AS empty. The fear and loneliness you sensed is the result of afflictions caused by your mind and mental conception. That's not emptiness. Once you have arrived to any sense of emptiness, you would experience samadhi to a certain degree.

Attempting to awaken is like attempting to grow a second head. It wont happen.

 

What many attempt to do are to succumb to habitual reactionary thoughts/feelings/acts which keep them from realizing that they are already awakened. This is where the term 'ignorance' applies in Buddhist thought.

 

There is a difference.

 

Hence, the right practice is not to seek awakening, but to focus on transforming unpleasant habitual tendencies from outer to inner.

[Vmarco]

Attempting to awaken is like attempting to grow a second head. It wont happen.

 

Hence, the right practice is not to seek awakening, but to focus on transforming unpleasant habitual tendencies from outer to inner.

Ditto!

 

Some suggest, and I agree, that Buddhism is a tradition of inquiry into the true nature of reality. For example, Sakyamuni Buddha was not seeking enlightenment, but inquiring into the true nature of suffering. IMO, if you fully understand one thing, you will understand everything.

 

Or, as a Tibetan once said,..."Cultivating flowers reveals the innocence still seedling in whatever is beheld.”

[Spotless]

The idea of reduction is seductive to the mind.

 

You /it can see the simplicity in the idea - it gives it process - a feeling of direction and holes in the dam to plug up.

Or dams to remove.

 

A map for success. Every apple polishers dream.

 

You do not quit smoking by mind - at some point you are done with it and at that point it is quite easy to drop.

You will not quit the addiction to future and past by reduction and these are truly illusion.

 

No portion of the you that you associate with yourself is interested in winging it in present time - and you have rarely listened to the horse that moves you along. This cheap sellout that steers your course in life - whether you are a doctor or a king or a waiter or a cop - reduction is not practice in living with no future.

 

Reduction is a tool for understanding that you can and cannot do as you intend. The driver (you)is a lunatic with glimpses of sanity and just enough intermittent positive reinforcement to pull the wool over your eyes.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Spotless

[joeblast]

Good

 

What you have found out might be the forced way of getting "there"...

its a path of rote mindfulness, exerting mindful control over a mess of signals with the intent on harmonizing and streamlining them, purposefully quieting them down instead of just "waiting for it to happen at some point." even if you've got but a keyhole of sanity to look through, if you can stay focused...

 

but its not about forcing things. it is mindfulness, it is analysis, it is simplification - a logical process...."forced" to me sounds like one is trying too hard, in whatever context. I wasnt perturbed about the hiccup I found before I knew exactly how to move my diaphragm, it just made me curious why it happened and what could I do to get around it....ooh, a puzzle

[C T]

 

Ditto!

 

Some suggest, and I agree, that Buddhism is a tradition of inquiry into the true nature of reality. For example, Sakyamuni Buddha was not seeking enlightenment, but inquiring into the true nature of suffering. IMO, if you fully understand one thing, you will understand everything.

 

Or, as a Tibetan once said,..."Cultivating flowers reveals the innocence still seedling in whatever is beheld.”

Ditto too.

 

How's Chiangmai, Vmarco? Its durian season in Thailand i believe. Yumm!

 

Would you be brave enough to try some, i wonder? Its a real challenge not many Westerners wish to take up. My Polish colleague had a spoon of it the other day, and loved it. Rare indeed.

[Jeff]

Ditto!Some suggest, and I agree, that Buddhism is a tradition of inquiry into the true nature of reality. For example, Sakyamuni Buddha was not seeking enlightenment, but inquiring into the true nature of suffering. IMO, if you fully understand one thing, you will understand everything.Or, as a Tibetan once said,..."Cultivating flowers reveals the innocence still seedling in whatever is beheld.”

This is worth repeating again.

 

Best regards.

[Jeff]

Attempting to awaken is like attempting to grow a second head. It wont happen.

 

What many attempt to do are to succumb to habitual reactionary thoughts/feelings/acts which keep them from realizing that they are already awakened. This is where the term 'ignorance' applies in Buddhist thought.

 

There is a difference.

 

Hence, the right practice is not to seek awakening, but to focus on transforming unpleasant habitual tendencies from outer to inner.

Are not habitual tendencies transformed into inner, still habitual tendencies? Is not "good" karma, still karma?

 

Could the practice be to accept and then drop (let go of) habitual tendencies?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[hydrogen]

Are not habitual tendencies transformed into inner, still habitual tendencies? Is not "good" karma, still karma?

 

Could the practice be to accept and then drop (let go of) habitual tendencies?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

I understood it as "from mountain to sea", i.e. anywhere between mountain to sea and including mountain and sea.

 

I read "from outer to iner" as from inside to outside and every thing in between.

 

Language is tricky.

[Rara]

I am almost convinced that emptiness cannot be literal. Once we meditate on emptiness, that emptiness becomes form...

 

So far, for me, it is an analogy for quietening everything in the mind that isn't the pure, mindful conscience...

[XieJia]

I am almost convinced that emptiness cannot be literal. Once we meditate on emptiness, that emptiness becomes form...

 

So far, for me, it is an analogy for quietening everything in the mind that isn't the pure, mindful conscience...

 

Emptiness is what is meditating on form.

Seeing that, form itself also empty.

 

Are not habitual tendencies transformed into inner, still habitual tendencies? Is not "good" karma, still karma?

 

Could the practice be to accept and then drop (let go of) habitual tendencies?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

There are certain kind of karma that let go of other karma and eventually let go of itself.