Franz Bardon's system

[WillingToListen]

I am considering taking up this system as a practice because of it's cohesiveness. Are there any of you who have any experience with it or advice pertaining to it?

 

Please and Thank You

[RiverSnake]

Bardon's system is quite good. The more I learn about the occult and Esotericism the deeper respect I have for what he teaches and how methodically well layered and regimented it is.

 

Although I do have a couple things to say regarding the system which can be considered cons from my personal experience.

 

1. The system can be too regimented (depending on your personality, Bardon was German). It was for me and it wasn't until I started to jump around and exercise some flexibility with the lessons that I began to make some decent progress. Some people recommend taking your time with each lesson until you are perfect at it.....I disagree, I think it's best to gain a basic level of skill with each technique and then continue to refine it as you move forward with each lesson.

 

2. Although Bardon's work is quite transformational, like most Western Traditions it is lacking in methods for Internal Alchemy. I highly recommend that you utilize some form of Chi Gung or Neigong as a complement to your work with Bardon, it will greatly speed up your progress, they are highly complementary.

 

3. Bardon very heavily emphasizes visualization, while that's fine and works well....if anything I think Visualization should be seen as a stepping stone to utilizing "intent" to make things happen, which is more powerful.

 

-------------------------

 

Also If you pursue Bardon's work I recommend you utilize the Bardoncompanions as a helpful guide. http://www.bookult.org/files/Alchemy,%20Hermeticism/Rawn%20Clark%20-%20A%20Bardon%20Companion%20-%20Expanded%20Second%20Edition.pdf

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited June 15, 2013 by OldGreen

[RiverSnake]

Bardon's system is quite good. The more I learn about the occult and Esotericism the deeper respect I have for what he teaches and how methodically well layered and regimented it is.

Although I do have a couple things to say regarding the system which can be considered cons from my personal experience.

 

1. The system can be too regimented (depending on your personality, Bardon was German). It was for me and it wasn't until I started to jump around and exercise some flexibility with the lessons that I began to make some decent progress. Some people recommend taking your time with each lesson until you are perfect at it.....I disagree, I think it's best to gain a basic level of skill with each technique and then continue to refine it as you move forward with each lesson.

 

2. Although Bardon's work is quite transformational, like most Western Traditions it is lacking in methods for Internal Alchemy. I highly recommend that you utilize some form of Chi Gung or Neigong as a complement to your work with Bardon, it will greatly speed up your progress, they are highly complementary.

 

3. Bardon very heavily emphasizes visualization, while that's fine and works well....if anything I think Visualization should be seen as a stepping stone to utilizing "intent" to make things happen, which is more powerful.

-------------------------

Also If you pursue Bardon's work I recommend you utilize the Bardoncompanions as a helpful guide. http://www.bookult.org/files/Alchemy,%20Hermeticism/Rawn%20Clark%20-%20A%20Bardon%20Companion%20-%20Expanded%20Second%20Edition.pdf

My 2 cents, Peace

I would like to retract the 1st and 3rd statements I made above. The more I go back and look at his works the more deeply understand why he structured them the way he did in there. It really is an amazing book. Harnessing of intent is in there if you take your time with the 1st steps, though not directly.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 13, 2013 by OldChi

[Sloppy Zhang]

2. Although Bardon's work is quite transformational, like most Western Traditions it is lacking in methods for Internal Alchemy. I highly recommend that you utilize some form of Chi Gung or Neigong as a complement to your work with Bardon, it will greatly speed up your progress, they are highly complementary.

 

I would disagree on this point as well, and I would also ask what your definitions are for qigong and neigong.

 

Steps working with the vital force in the physical body are Bardon's "equivalent" to qigong. Or rather, if you are doing qigong, you are working with vital force (qi) in the body. So that would be where qigong fits in the grand scheme of things.

 

Now Neigong is a little bit different, because neigong gets into internal alchemy and getting into changing the fundamental core of your being.

 

A good qigong system that is part of a long standing spiritual tradition will evolve into neigong. (But I guess it doesn't have to, as long as you understand what it is and what it isn't. Plenty of qigong systems out there are good for physical health, and if that's all you need and all you want, more power to you. But if you want to get into deeper/higher levels of being... Gonna need something that deals with that)

 

Now here's the kicker- Bardon's system IS basically a form of internal alchemy (which also includes aspects of physical health/healing that qigong would supply).

 

So now we come to the conversation of working in multiple lineages. Should you do it? Are two lineages compatible?

 

If you have two fully developed lineages that address the needs of the physical, energetic, spiritual, mental, psychic, emotional, whatever/however many bodies your paradigm uses, then it doesn't much matter- each system is going to have ways of developing in these areas, and how deep they develop them depends on the tradition and the teacher.

 

 

I would very much suggest William Mistele's writings on Bardon: http://williammistele.com/

 

In particular, he talks about how a master magician must embody everything masters of other traditions are. He notes two- the first being zen, which focuses pretty much entirely on the mental body, void meditation, occasional focal meditation. He says a master magician should basically be a zen master, because all of the skills on the mental body (as defined by Bardon) are the same.

 

He then says that a master magician should also be a Tai Chi/qigong master, since working with the vital force in the physical body is what Tai Chi/Qigong is about. Now obviously traditions of Tai Chi/Qigong get VERY in depth about the physical body- acupuncture points, meridians, energy channels, openings/closings of the body. Mistele says that Bardon doesn't go into that much depth, because if you get to the point where you are breathing vital energy in through the entire body, you're basically doing it (and I suppose if Divine Providence allows you to discover other methods or if you want to learn from a spirit or a Tai Chi master, more power to you).

 

I don't think Mistele has met/been involved in a legit Neigong tradition (they're rare as hell anyways, let alone in the West) so while I initially disagreed with hem on the point of Tai Chi/qigong being only a "part" that a master magician would know and more, I kind of see where it's coming from if you have the perspective of a Tai Chi/qigong master who's just working with energy in/of the physical body.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Bardon's system is quite good. The more I learn about the occult and Esotericism the deeper respect I have for what he teaches and how methodically well layered and regimented it is.

 

Although I do have a couple things to say regarding the system which can be considered cons from my personal experience.

 

1. The system can be too regimented (depending on your personality, Bardon was German). It was for me and it wasn't until I started to jump around and exercise some flexibility with the lessons that I began to make some decent progress. Some people recommend taking your time with each lesson until you are perfect at it.....I disagree, I think it's best to gain a basic level of skill with each technique and then continue to refine it as you move forward with each lesson.

 

2. Although Bardon's work is quite transformational, like most Western Traditions it is lacking in methods for Internal Alchemy. I highly recommend that you utilize some form of Chi Gung or Neigong as a complement to your work with Bardon, it will greatly speed up your progress, they are highly complementary.

 

3. Bardon very heavily emphasizes visualization, while that's fine and works well....if anything I think Visualization should be seen as a stepping stone to utilizing "intent" to make things happen, which is more powerful.

 

-------------------------

 

Also If you pursue Bardon's work I recommend you utilize the Bardoncompanions as a helpful guide. http://www.bookult.org/files/Alchemy,%20Hermeticism/Rawn%20Clark%20-%20A%20Bardon%20Companion%20-%20Expanded%20Second%20Edition.pdf

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

 

Too bad I can't like this more than once. Some very good advice.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have unfortunately and seen far too many folks who work and follow the Bardon system for many years, or perhaps a decade or two and are missing (IMO) methods for working through their internal crap, as well as not nearly enough grounding. Of course this is not always the case, but does seen to crop up a lot.

 

Btw, steps number 1 and 2 I think we do for the rest of our lives really, even once one moves into the others, 1 and 2 are always good to keep up.

[RiverSnake]

Sloppy Zhang.....you make many highly generalized statements and assumptions in your post regarding many topics, I am at a loss of words to address any of them from any kind of authoritative stand point giving they are deep and intricate topics and many beyond the scope of my knowledge, nor do I have the patience to do so.

 

Perhaps you are right that Bardon is a system of Internal Alchemy depending on what your definition of that is....however I still find a distinct difference between what he teaches which are basically techniques versus the thousands of hours of meditation that one must do in order to transmute oneself, perhaps i will change my perspective in the future, but i doubt it. I couldn't find the link to mistele's article on Tai Chi, could you post it here.

 

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 14, 2013 by OldChi

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[RiverSnake]

All good points Friend. Thanks of making them.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sloppy Zhang.....you make many highly generalized statements and assumptions in your post regarding many topics, I am at a loss of words to address any of them from any kind of authoritative stand point giving they are deep and intricate topics and many beyond the scope of my knowledge, nor do I have the patience to do so.

 

Perhaps you are right that Bardon is a system of Internal Alchemy depending on what your definition of that is....however I still find a distinct difference between what he teaches which are basically techniques versus the thousands of hours of meditation that one must do in order to transmute oneself, perhaps i will change my perspective in the future, but i doubt it. I couldn't find the link to mistele's article on Tai Chi, could you post it here.

 

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

Well, it's a broad topic. The definitions of qigong/neigong I'm borrowing from Frantzis because I believe they make a good delineation between subjects.

 

Broadly speaking- qigong is working with qi in the body/mind/emotions. Generally, working towards physical health and wellness. Many martial artists fall into this realm- they might have the qi of a whale and can squish you into the ground with a hand. But are they particularly spiritually developed? Not necessarily.

 

Plenty of topics on this board have gone into energetic attainments vs spiritual attainments.

 

Neigong- this is when you get into "spiritual cultivation." Psychic influences, karma, dissolving ego, Tao/void/Godhead/whatever. This is the kind of stuff that gets you further on the path, and may carry over with you when you reincarnate.

 

In this context, you can have qigong without neigong and neigong without qigong. But in what, in my personal opinion, are full spiritual traditions (which touch on all aspects of life/death, daily or otherwise) there are methods of dealing with the physical body (avoiding injury, healing injury, what positions to sit in, etc) and those run up the spectrum to get into meditation.

 

One can even make this distinction between different types of yoga- there is the yoga that cleanses and exercises the physical body/energy channels, and then there are types of yoga that deal with serious cultivation of the spirit/higher energy centers (kundalini type stuff).

 

Plenty of people are doing yoga these days for the health benefits completely ignorant of the spiritual cultivation side (analogous to qigong without neigong) and plenty of people (maybe even here on TTB's) are sitting in full lotus meditating to achievement without getting into the yoga postures that tone the buttocks (neigong without the qigong analogy).

 

Sorry if my shorthand in the above post offended or mislead you

 

In any case, those are the terms I'm using and the context I'm using them in. Feel free to agree to the definitions or not, it's just surface level stuff. But that will give you the key to see what I'm really saying.

 

 

Now, with regards to Mistele's articles, in his first article on Bardon's basic training (here: http://williammistele.com/ch1mental.html), he writes:

 

 

I add here a few paragraphs from my essay on the four planes: My kids sometimes ask about magick. I tell them that in regard to Bardon's practices, the concept he has of basic mastery is a spiritual ideal in itself: Bardon expects you to have

 

1. The mental clarity of an advanced Zen master--that is, a mind empty like a mirror and sharp as a diamond. When you concentrate on something you easily focus without any distraction whatsoever so there is nothing else in your consciousness.

 

2. The concentration and artistic imagination of Stephen Spielberg. Spielberg can visualize each scene in a movie including camera angles. He can hear the intonations in the voices of the characters and see the emotions they portray. He can do all of this before he begins shooting.

 

3. The ability to understand personal problems from a universal perspective as one or two Ph.D.s in transpersonal psychology might impart.

 

4. The level of vitality and chi possessed by a sixth don aikido sensei or a fourth generation tai chi master.

 

5. The qualities of a successful individual in any profession: His life must be organized. He must be free of needless distractions. He must have rugged endurance, patience, self- motivation, and determination. And, like those at the top of any profession or career, he must love his work with all his mind, heart, and soul.

 

And these abilities and attitudes Bardon expects you to somehow acquire before you move on to working with higher spirits. I mention these five points because they represent skills present in professions which are already part of our society. There is absolutely nothing secret or esoteric about them. They are the powers of creative imagination acquired and applied through hard work and commitment. The first step in magick is not withdrawal. It is to internalize some of the creativity which already surrounds us.

 

In particular points 1 and 4. It seems like the assumption he is coming from is that zen and qigong/Tai Chi are not self contained, but merely aspects of a whole (a whole that Bardon encompasses) namely, the mental and the energetic power, respectively.

 

Now when I first read this I was already practicing B.K. Frantzis' methods, which contains not only physical development (in terms of energy, alignments) but also a means of smoothing out emotional, mental, psychic, and if you read the outline in his books for trajectory of the practice, full on spiritual/internal alchemy.

 

But then it occurs to me that he probably hasn't met anyone from a full on Daoist tradition that is an equivalent to Bardon's so... that was just me getting all puffed up for no reason It's not about "you said XYZ about my tradition", it's more about "these are the qualities of a full on spiritual tradition and method of magical/spiritual development, you either have them or you don't." And the fact of the matter is, many these days don't.

 

 

In any case, regarding Bardon's system, I do believe there is internal alchemy involved, and again, he puts it right front and center in the middle of the book. And by the middle of the book, I mean steps 1-3 where you are working with the soul mirrors and elements in the astral body. The whole is to turn your gaze upon yourself (introspection) and assess what is there and what isn't there (become aware of your imbalances) and to begin the process of balancing them out, using the elemental energies as handles.

 

Admittedly it is indirect, but that's the whole idea. You're a beginner. As you get better and better, you become more skilled at parsing out which emotion is which. What is their energy? Throughout the day, you realize when more fire builds in you, when your water becomes weak, when you let air whisk you away, and when earth keeps you so rooted you can't move with the flowt of life. This is nothing more than elemental ways of saying "you need to be aware of how energies arise inside of you, and you need to deal with those energies."

 

Sound like an awareness practice to anyone?

 

Of course, most of this stuff is left implied. Sort of. He mentions in several places throughout the text that your practice builds and you never forget this.

 

And let's not forget other Hermetic principles (understandable if Bardon assumes these are implicitly known, perhaps?) As above so below, the law of analogy? The energies you are working with on the astral body have effects/analogs in the physical and mental realms. So suddenly you have room for your entire practice to move up or down to different "levels" of your being.

 

But of course, how many Bardon teachers are out there to prod you along and check your progress? Not many. So, and this is purely conjecture at my part, I think people do the basic of this and then move on. You know, to the fun stuff.

 

Especially for energetically sensitive people, energy manipulations of step 3 are waaaaaaay more fun. I also think cross training has something to do with this. For instance, Bardon doesn't teach energy/elemental manipulations until steps 2-3. But if you've worked in a qigong/neigong practice, you already know how to feel and manipulate energy, hell, you may already have worked with projecting it into other people (and spaces, etc). If you've worked in other forms of magic (when I was young I got the book "Modern Magick") then you've already been working with elemental energies. Bardon puts that shit together like nobody's business, and now you can see how elemental energies build to things like clairvoyance, clairaudience, remote viewing, astral projection, etc. You know, the fun stuff.

 

 

But the whole idea is that you don't get TO the fun stuff unless/until you're balanced out. But of course balancing involves awareness. Stillness. Reflection. Radical self honesty. That shit aint fun.

 

So I believe that is the cause for powerful but fucked up people, or at least people who have no "neigong" or alchemy or whatever terms you want to use. It's not because it isn't inherent in Bardon's system. It's because most people practicing Bardon have not refined their practice to that level. And that's not Bardon's fault.

 

 

And the same can be said for visualization. At first it's an indirect method of getting a "hold" on the energies. keep in mind, Bardon doesn't just use "visual" visualizations. You hold feelings, sounds, tastes, and smells in your mind to give you a "grasp" on energies. Eventually, once you have gotten a hang of the vital force or other elements, move them around directly with intent.

 

Again, implication vs explicit statement. Read between the lines people This is magic/occult/whatever. Get creative.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Sloppy Zhang

[RiverSnake]

You make many valid points Sloppy. I concede intellectual defeat, if you feel it is a good system or an inter alchemical approach then by all means pursue it.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[SonOfTheGods]

Bardon had some good ideas, the volt, condenser, etc.

 

But he was too much into the white vs black lodge/magic trip.

 

Too christian for my likes.

 

Besides, he tried to build this whole facade about himself, with superman powers.

 

His evocation books has a lot of his personal channelings for the sigils, which appeared null for me and others.

 

His qabala book is incomplete and ridiculous, IMO.

Edited August 18, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[ralis]

Bardon had some good ideas, the volt, condenser, etc.

 

But he was too much into the white vs black lodge/magic trip.

 

Too christian for my likes.

 

Besides, he tried to build this whole facade about himself, with superman powers.

 

His evocation books has a lot of his personal channelings for the sigils, which appeared null for me and others.

 

His qabala book is incomplete and ridiculous, IMO.

 

In what way is the KTQ incomplete?

[SonOfTheGods]

In what way is the KTQ incomplete?

It was never finished, Bardon died.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Bardon had some good ideas, the volt, condenser, etc.

 

But he was too much into the white vs black lodge/magic trip.

 

Too christian for my likes.

 

Besides, he tried to build this whole facade about himself, with superman powers.

 

His evocation books has a lot of his personal channelings for the sigils, which appeared null for me and others.

 

His qabala book is incomplete and ridiculous, IMO.

 

I have heard from people who have spent a lot of time practicing and developing themselves according to Bardon's system. They say (and Bardon says this as well) that it is imperative that you get to step 8 before working on the Evocation/Kabbalah books.

 

Why?

 

Because when you are on step 8 you have developed all of the faculties to directly perceive energy yourself, and what you are doing yourself, rather than parroting a formula made by someone else.

 

For that reason, I have heard that Bardon's Evocations/Kabbalah were "incomplete" in the sense that they are missing certain aspects, or have certain aspects reversed. If you have the right faculties cultivated you'll see where the missing piece is or what things need to be reversed.

 

If not, you'll be spinning your wheels.

 

Which is why they say "don't skip steps" in Bardon

[SonOfTheGods]

His qabala book is incomplete and ridiculous, IMO.

 

Sloppy Zhang: "I have heard from people who have spent a lot of time practicing and developing themselves according to Bardon's system. They say (and Bardon says this as well) that it is imperative that you get to step 8 before working on the Evocation/Kabbalah books.

 

Why?

 

Because when you are on step 8 you have developed all of the faculties to directly perceive energy yourself, and what you are doing yourself, rather than parroting a formula made by someone else.

 

For that reason, I have heard that Bardon's Evocations/Kabbalah were "incomplete" in the sense that they are missing certain aspects, or have certain aspects reversed. If you have the right faculties cultivated you'll see where the missing piece is or what things need to be reversed.

 

If not, you'll be spinning your wheels.

 

Which is why they say "don't skip steps" in Bardon :P"

--------

 

Bardon's cabala book, third in series in incomplete:

There are a few specific omissions in the latter part of KTQ.

 

The third and final section of KTQ is titled "Practice -- The Magic of Formulas" and is dedicated to the remaining three keys. Each key refers to the number of letters involved in each formula. Thus the second key involves combining two letters; the third involves three letters, and so on. There are ten such keys according to Bardon, but he gives instructions for only the first four.

 

At the end of the twelfth Step, Bardon speaks about Elemental formulas and the use of Divine Names and Beings.

Edited August 22, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[Flolfolil]

what is the best FB book to start on for a total newb?

[thelerner]

edit> It strikes me I didn't answer F.'s question. I think most people start out with IIH, Initiation Into Hermetics. The commentaries I list below are based on it.

 

I'd say warm up the printer and get some ink. The free commentaries by Rawn Clark - http://abardoncompanion.com/CommentariesLinks.html are excellent 'Cliff Notes'. William Mistele has a similar indepth notes - http://williammistele.com/basic.html (scroll down a bit for the commentary) as well as observations and stories.

 

Most of the stuff on Rawn Clark's site is free. He has some audio commentaries on the IIH that are worthwhile but are relatively cheap looks like they're free now - http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Lecture/index.html . Some additional pointers and advice.

 

Both practitioners tell of opening up to a wider world where there are myriad spirits open for communication and seem to have mastered dream work. More importantly they seem level headed not too far out. For a while Rawn had a Q&A forum. When asked for proof of power. He'd only say study and find out for yourself. Which might be an incomplete answer for some. You can find a couple of podcast interviews with him too.

Edited October 11, 2013 by thelerner

[Flolfolil]

what about titles of books that are by him?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

His principle books are:

 

Initiation into Hermetics

The Practice of Magical Evocation

The Key to the True Kabbalah

 

Good luck.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Nothing like taking the demons from the Abramelin book, using a code he only gave to his students, and mixing the letters in each name about, then putting them in his evocation book . These days the code is easy to find though.

 

I like Bardon's charging food and water stuff, it's pretty neat.

[bakeneko]

Nothing like taking the demons from the Abramelin book, using a code he only gave to his students, and mixing the letters in each name about, then putting them in his evocation book .

 

This is incorrect. The so called "Abramelin demons" share names with the spirits of the earth girdling zone. Spirits in cypher are the spirits of the moon zone. Also this cypher does not origin from Bardon, but, as most of his evocation material, from Quintscher (just without Quintschers somewhat useless mystification).

[Jadespear]

I am still practicing step 2 exercises. I am wondering what sensations or experiences anyone has had with the "whole body" breathing exercises.

 

It seems that the hardest part for me on this right now is to not visualize anything as Bardon suggests, but rather suck in energy to my center. Not sure if this is the same cause-effect process that his system recommends but nevertheless I feel sensations. Multiple parts of my body feel different sensations some at the same time, some one after the other.

 

Any thoughts?

[d'avid]

 

1. The system can be too regimented (depending on your personality, Bardon was German).

 

No, Bardon was Czech - or let's say his host personality. Reportedly (I think hints to that can be found in Frabato) he was a Walk-In (soul that inhabited a personality whose owner soul left, so to speak). He was born in Austria / Hungary and died in Czech. So he would rather have a slavic cultural personality background which is quite different from the Chairman. He was inprisoned by the Nazis.