Whiskey and beer

[wenwu]

another quick question

 

What do you think the effects of drinking are on your development? we have all heard about the benefits of a glass of red wine, and if i drink just a little i find my mind is a lot quieter and i have come up with some really interesting (well, to me anyway) things after a little bit of alcohol, however i am aware this is a sort cut to the basic results of mental discipline.

 

Through chating to a few people that are in to qigong, I seems that drinking in moderation has no real bad sides effects, in fact one old fellow told me that it was good to do qigoing after drinking becasue it gets the alcohol out of your system

[in2it2heal]

Hmmm...good topic. Well, in my opinion, in the grand scheme of life, a few drinks on occassion seem like no big whoop. But, when we break the grand scheme of life down to each moment, then it becomes an issue. Any chemical that artificially alters the state of consciousness would be counterproductive to spiritual growth. If you take one moment of artificial altered consciousness, that is taking a moment away from genuine altered consciousness that leads to spiritual growth.

 

I know a few drinks loosen me up and make me more fun to be around, but I try to achieve being easy-going and fun to be around without assistance. (That being said, I did have two Rum and Coke's last weekend...lol.)

 

If we rely on alcohol, even for one moment, to assist us to achieve something that can be achieved without it, then it is nothing more than a crutch.

 

Some might say that having a few drinks helps them to open up spiritually. But to me, that's like picking the lock on a door for which one has not yet found the key.

[Yen Hui]

I know some of you out there are familiar with the tales of Don Juan and Carlos Castaneda. Perhaps one of

you would be so kind as to share with us why Don Juan made Carlos use Peyote in the early stages of his

training; and why he eventually made Carlos quit using it, after making some progress on the warrior path?

[in2it2heal]

I know some of you out there are familiar with the tales of Don Juan and Carlos Castaneda. Perhaps one of

you would be so kind as to share with us why Don Juan made Carlos use Peyote in the early stages of his

training; and why he eventually made Carlos quit using it, after making some progress on the warrior path?

 

*Peering over my right shoulder to my copy of Journey to Ixtlan on the book shelf.* I was thinking of this, too, as I was writing my response. I'd like to hear what the well-versed in Castaneda say, too.

 

I was also thinking that sometimes, I guess, chemically altering your state of consciousness might help you to see something you never knew existed. Kind of like Plato's cave theory. If you think life is just shadows on a wall, then you would never be motivated to see anything but shadows. Nothing would motivate you to turn around to see the people dancing. I could see how a drug, such as peyote, might help you to "turn around". But still, I feel like it puts the notion out there that enlightenment is more attainable or equally attainable through external natural forces rather than internal or universal ones.

[thaddeus]

I know some of you out there are familiar with the tales of Don Juan and Carlos Castaneda. Perhaps one of

you would be so kind as to share with us why Don Juan made Carlos use Peyote in the early stages of his

training; and why he eventually made Carlos quit using it, after making some progress on the warrior path?

He talks about it in the later books and if I recall correctly it had something to do with it being just a technique to nudge him into Don Juan's world.

My take is that Carlos was a great writer who had his finger on the pulse of the new age movement throughout it's evolution. It started with the drug culture of the 60s and that's what castaneda initially wrote about. When that stopped being cool in the 70s, he started to write about the power of the feminine and buddhist ideas. You'll see with each decade, his focus changed to what was currently in vogue. His later works talked about dreaming and other more abstract concepts. That's all, imho.

T

[wenwu]

so short term it may give you light to something that you have to chase in more sober times?

 

io would agree wih this statement as i said before a little quiets my mnd enough, but i woant to reach that stage on my own

 

long term if you are drinking would it damage you, stop you from develping if so in what way? a simple chemical reaction or would it stop you because you are giving in to an external stimulus?

[riverheron]

Hi all ~ this is a good topic . . .

 

Alcohol is 'strong yang fire' ~ if we look at everything as energy, instead of as 'good or bad', then we can learn to work with the Qi of whatever we ingest. I feel that we can learn to work with the yang fire of alcohol, remembering to balance it with yin/quietness. I know my Qigong master loves to go have a microbrew after class "I do everything" he says with a shrug and a smile. Generally, in the Daoist sense, if you are going to do something (anything), then feel that it is medicine for you. If you worry about it being bad for you, then you might have trouble with it. On one level, it's our consciousness about what we take that really causes problems.

 

On the topic of peyote and plant spirit medicines, they are very powerful catalysts for awakening us to our multi-dimensional nature. They are spirits which, when ingested, flow through our body sharing healing and cleansing energies and information. They must be greatly respected or they will cause mischief, kind of like the I-Ching When we disrespect the Sage, then we tend to get spanked. . . that's the way of it. For myself, I check in with plant spirit medicine a few times a year ~ I go in with intention, ceremony, song and humility. Always I come back with a gem for my life, a piece of the puzzle. The path of plant spirit medicine is definitely not for everyone, but it is very important to see through the lies about these substances fed to us through the social control paradigm. These medicines are of the earth, herbs, which have healing properties for us at certain times.

 

I have only read a few of Castenada's books and resonated with them a bit, but felt something was off as well. This was confirmed for me when I saw a movie made about him several years back. I hadn't realized what a cult empire he had built around himself. When he died, several of his apprentices drove out to the desert, ditched their car and walked to their doom to join him. Good? Bad? who knows . . . but he was one strange cat.

 

 

thanks for the thread, and love qi to you ~

[spyrelx]

Castanada is worth a whole other thread, but my general view is he was a charlatan who stole a lot of ideas from various places and made up a story. The fact that some of his borrowed ideas have value doesn't make him or his "movement" any more legitimate.

 

Regarding power plants, they have a long history of usefullness in spiritual work, though I think most would agree they are very phyically draining, and that -- if you're trying to grow spiritually (as opposed to just getting high or having a new experience) -- they should be used sparringly and with care.

 

 

Regarding alcohol (the original purpose of this thread), here are my thoughts:

 

First, outside of poetry, I don't think there's too many traditions that view alcohol as a valuable tool for spiritual enlightenement.

 

Second, I'm glad this thread was started because it's been on my mind lately. I find myself drinking more often and, somewhat paradoxically, being much more sensitive to alcohol than in the past. I can get looped pretty easily these days (e.g., one stiff drink) and, as I say, seem to be drinking somewhere between 3 and 6 nights a week (whereas in the past, maybe it was once a week or less).

 

I notice my body more and find alcohol to be physically debilitating. I can have a few beers at 8 -- get tipsy -- and go to bed at midnight (no longer tipsy) and still have a pretty shitty sleep, and then wake up kind of stuffed up and groggy and be "off" most of the day.

 

I also feel weaker the more I use alcohol. I'm surprised someone said it was yang because I feel like it depletes kidney energy (or perhaps that's what yang would do?).

 

I also find it addictive. I'm by no means an alcoholic, but I do notice that, despite all the negative stuff I just said -- and the fact that I don't even enjoy getting tipsy that much -- that sometimes my body "wants" a drink.

 

So in sum I think it's a pretty debilitating drug that should probably be avoided (if only I could).

 

I'd be curious about other people's thoughts, particularly with respect to what it does to your body from a chinese medical perspective.

[mYTHmAKER]

Through chating to a few people that are in to qigong, I seems that drinking in moderation has no real bad sides effects, in fact one old fellow told me that it was good to do qigoing after drinking becasue it gets the alcohol out of your system

 

So you should drink before doing qigong so you can get the alcohol out of your system.

[thelerner]

An interesting angle is 'Is that which make us live longer, good for us?' In a couple of large studies the moderate drinker outlives the non drinker (and heavy drinker). A glass or two a day provides substantial protection (30-40% ?) against the number one killer, heart disease. Thins the blood, provides various protective flavinoids. Its certainly not all bad.

 

Its also high in calories, addictive, poisonous in high doses, a kick in the liver and brain cells even at low doses.

 

For myself, I'll have a glass of wine with dinner a few nights a week, a beer or two with friends on a weekend, get smashed once or twice a year.

 

Michael

[mbanu]

If you're practicing sexual yoga or anything heat producing like that, whiskey is probably a bad idea. It's hot and acrid in nature, and while great for kickstarting the immune system and a whole bunch of other things (they don't call it the water of life for nothing ) it can easily produce heat problems when there's no need for it.

 

Beer on the other hand, is cooling (usually), and can help clear up liver qi stagnation. However, beer served American-style (just above freezing and extremely fizzy) tends to be very hard on the digestion.

 

In general, though, drunkeness tends to cause problems in any practice that involves qi manipulation. I'd avoid it for those.

Edited March 8, 2007 by mbanu

[Neijia]

An interesting angle is 'Is that which make us live longer, good for us?' In a couple of large studies the moderate drinker outlives the non drinker (and heavy drinker). A glass or two a day provides substantial protection (30-40% ?) against the number one killer, heart disease. Thins the blood, provides various protective flavinoids. Its certainly not all bad.

 

I read somewhere that a fair portion of those studies are indirectly funded by Anheuser Busch. That having been said, there are a number of TCM purposes for alcohol. Different types of wine, beer, hard liquor at different temperatures having different affects on qi.

 

I think that when I have (ever increasingly rare) bouts with drinking, or even a few glasses of wine too many, it throws me off. The body (or at least my body) becomes too sensitive to properly handle even "normal" or low level amounts.

 

But.. who knows.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Neijia

[clearclouds]

I remember hearing that it is quite common for those in the funeral industry in China to get quite tanked up on rice wine before work, especially the pallbearers, and that it's in order that they burn outward and off any of the negativity that they may be vunerable to.

[spyrelx]

I remember hearing that it is quite common for those in the funeral industry in China to get quite tanked up on rice wine before work, especially the pallbearers, and that it's in order that they burn outward and off any of the negativity that they may be vunerable to.

 

 

Well, I guess that's as good a rationalization as any for a drinking problem.

 

By the way, I recently finished reading the three Wandering Taoist books. In the forward or afterward (I forget which) the author (whose name escapes me -- hmm, maybe all that drinking?) says that when he got serious about chi gung he had to give up drinking, because he got too sensisitive to the alcohol. He quite enjoyed drinking but as he continued on his practice his body started rejecting it. Interesting . . .

[Spectrum]

From the text : Taoist Drinking Songs

 

Chou Wen-Chih

 

when peach blossoms open in the court

oh, happy, joyous drunk

when lotus blooms perfume the pool

oh mornings, evenings, drunk

when golden asters cluster by the hedgerow path

oh falling, tumbling, drunk

and when the wax-plum on the mountainside

first blooms to herald the spring

oh coming,going, drunk

getting drunker, getting drunker

drunk and sober; sober, drunk

 

*

 

in spring I search the scent of bamboo

flowers by a stream, and drink

in summer sail through lotus blossoms

by a willow-shrouded shore, and drink

in autumn climb the aster path

to sit within a maple grove, and drink

in winter snuggle by a rosy stove

in cozy hall, and drink

oh happiness, oh happiness

all four seasons, lovely scenes

and suitable for drinking.

[DaoWaDiddy]

While Googling for Taoist Drinking Songs I ran across this on Drinking Games - I'm Just Drinking:

 

Taoist Drinking Contest

Drinking Game Contributed by Cho Teko

 

Based on the Alternate Script #25 in No Need for Bushido where Cho Teko and the Wu Tang brothers face off in a Taoist proverb match.

 

Before begining the Taoist drinking contest, it's imperative to undestand a central element of the game: a Choism. A Choism is a sentence-long proverb followed with a sentence explaining the lesson to be learned by the proverb. A Choism follows a fairly simple format. It must include a subject doing, or specifically not doing, something to another object, and must convey some sort of truth. The "lesson" conveyed does not need to be complex. If you state the obvious fact that a "mailbox don't eat flowers," you can argue that the basic truth this proverb conveys is that "people have different tastes," or "Don't attack something harmless." It's best to make heavy use of adjectives. Using the examples above, a well-phased Choism would be "The selective mailbox does not eat the unsuspecting flower; the choices of one do not always reflect the prefrence of the other." Here we have a simple and obvious statement that has ben turned into a Choism.

 

Each player will prepare a Choism in advance. This is to both prevent proverb-block and familliarize players of the basic composition of a Choism.

 

Choose a No Need for Bushido drink and gather the appropriate materials.

 

Select, at random, the starting player. This can be done through spinning a bottle, flipping a coin, or rolling a die.

 

The starting player will announce his or her Choism.

 

The next player to the starter's right has thirty seconds to use the object of the previous Choism as the subject of his or her own. If the player is unable to come up with a Choism within that time, that player must take a shot. Aside from the object to subject switch mandated in the instructions above, you may not reuse nouns or verbs from previous Choisms. If the proverb does not meet all the qualifications of a Choism, as determined through vote by the other players, you must take a shot.

 

Move to the next person and repeat.

 

After the each full round (immediately before the starting player begins,) everyone must take a shot.

Miss 5 Choism, and your out.

 

Last person standing wins.

 

This could be adapted by substituting your favorite Daoist Teacher, Taobum, or other notorious person for Cho - think Chiaisms / Yodaisms / Yudeloveisms... although you'd probably need a special crowd for Ronisms.

 

Meanwhile, the web comic that the drinking game is based on - No Need For Bushido - is a hoot.

 

Charlie

[Spectrum]

That is great <big grin> Thanks Charlie!

 

Spectrum

[in2it2heal]

While Googling for Taoist Drinking Songs I ran across this on Drinking Games - I'm Just Drinking:

 

Wow, Charlie, I'm thinking back to my college days when I didn't tame my Irish and German innate nature and "drinking games" were part of my weekly routine...lol.

 

This game sure raises the philosophical bar at least a few notches from the standard college drinking games of Beer Pong, Quarters, Bullshit, and Asshole...lol.

[lino]

another quick question

 

What do you think the effects of drinking are on your development? we have all heard about the benefits of a glass of red wine, and if i drink just a little i find my mind is a lot quieter and i have come up with some really interesting (well, to me anyway) things after a little bit of alcohol, however i am aware this is a sort cut to the basic results of mental discipline.

 

Through chating to a few people that are in to qigong, I seems that drinking in moderation has no real bad sides effects, in fact one old fellow told me that it was good to do qigoing after drinking becasue it gets the alcohol out of your system

 

I drink 3 or 4 times a year and only enough to relax. I'm not a fan of alcohol because I feel awful for two or three days after.

[QiDr]

Although there is a long history of Taoist poets and drinking, there is no source that I have read in the last thirty five years that doesn't contra-indicate drinking and Qi Gong practice. Most sources give at least a 24 hour prohibition and many up to a week before and after practice. This makes daily practice and drinking impractical at best.

As to the use of alcohol in TCM, it is an herb catylist (pao zhi) and is used to modify the effects of herbs. It's own properties are hot and toxic but that is TCM terminolygy and doesn't mean what you may think.

The drinking of alcohol, like everything else (including peyote I would imagine), is addressed by the Taoist precept, "A little bit of everything and not too much of anything."

[Spectrum]

Less is more. You will be known by the fruit of your practice. It doesn't take to many mis-steps on the path to find how much medicine is poison. Observe what is natural. The Yellow Emperors manual has some interesting notes on when to take specific formulas, it's funny taoists are known for spending so much of their time in these transitional periods... i wonder if they didn't embody the internal dissolution of day and night.

 

Alone and Drinking Under the Moon

 

by Li Po

 

 

Amongst the flowers I

am alone with my pot of wine

drinking by myself; then lifting

my cup I asked the moon

to drink with me, its reflection

and mine in the wine cup, just

the three of us; then I sigh

for the moon cannot drink,

and my shadow goes emptily along

with me never saying a word;

with no other friends here, I can

but use these two for company;

in the time of happiness, I

too must be happy with all

around me; I sit and sing

and it is as if the moon

accompanies me; then if I

dance, it is my shadow that

dances along with me; while

still not drunk, I am glad

to make the moon and my shadow

into friends, but then when

I have drunk too much, we

all part; yet these are

friends I can always count on

these who have no emotion

whatsoever; I hope that one day

we three will meet again,

deep in the Milky Way

[Yen Hui]

 

... when I have drunk too much, we all part ...

 

by Li Po

 

The Huainan Masters say:

 

"Put away wine and stop the music,

and the mind suddenly feels as though it has suffered a loss;

it is upset, as though it has been bereft of something.

What makes this happen?

Using externals to amuse the internal, instead of

using the internal in such a way as to make the external pleasing."

(Taoist Classics, V. 1, p. 378)

[林愛偉]

alcohol destroys the stomachlining, impairs spleen and liver functions.

 

alcoholused in Chinese Medicine, is done so with a mixture of other herbs, therefore harmful sideeffects of the alcohol are cancelled out.

 

just because Daoistsinthepast drank wine doesn'tmean it was good for them. Also, with thisin mind, they were obviously mixing it with herbs to tonify yang qi, dispell phlem(major qi blocker), and move the blood.

 

Fun.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[Spectrum]

... and those Taoist poems that start with...

 

"... A single note from the jade pipe..."

 

heh... heheh... hey... pass that tea-cake over here...

[Ian]

One beer - always a good idea.

Two beers - sometimes a good idea.

Three beers - never a good idea.

 

Spyrelx - yes, I'm told we can start drinking for a variety of reasons, but after a while the body just gets habituated to it, and we can find ourselves drinking just because the body wants to, without it being prompted by anything "personal."

 

I used to drink to excess, seven days a week if possible, for a long time. Quit in 2002, didn't touch it for about 18 months, now I do what I like. I no longer enjoy being drunk, in the sense of being so drunk that I'm aware that I'm drunk. So I hardly ever have more than 3 or 4, rarely more than two nights a week, unless my girlfriend's away, and don't feel as if I'm doing myself any particular harm. Knowing that I'm going to do 45 minutes standing the next morning, come what may, has quite a good regulatory effect.

 

It will be a long time before my body forgets, tho.