Wim Hof's Meditation

[bluefire]

Anyone have any thoughts on the safety of the breathing? Of course you read things online about the danger of the breath hold and fainting but Im talking about the possibility of starving the brain of oxygen.

I limit usually the duration. It would be nice to see some research with the breath pattern. There is some general research but they usually do it without specific exhale like this one for divers and with 4:40+:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090804071410.htm

Edited January 28, 2016 by bluefire

[thelerner]

I limit usually the duration. It would be nice to see some research with the breath pattern. There is some general research but they usually do it without specific exhale like this one for divers and with 4:40+:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090804071410.htm

Interesting, the average hold in the test was 5 min 35 seconds.  That is pretty long.   I saw a show on sport diving and get the feeling that its a pretty high risk sport.    Still, I'd like to hit a 3 minute hold.  

 

The bad is in the study 7 out of 9 divers is showed a particular cellular marker for  brain damage going up after an extreme hold.  It'd be interesting to see if historically such extreme breath holders ended up with brain problems (other then caused by drowning).  Still its a different protocol then Wim Hof method uses and in general we're not doing it for 5+ minutes.  And a marker is not the same as direct link.  For example, inflammation can be good, ie showing you've worked out hard and are growing muscle or a sign of a disease. 

 

My thinking is once you've done the 10 weeks its good to keep up with the practice but you can stop trying to set new bests and keep to a more comfortable track.  With showers too, keep up a few weekly cold showers but less need to be exotic and go to far out of your comfort zone- as always, in my (limited) opinion. 

 

 

 

I'm trying to settle into a post 10 week routine.  Doing the breathing routine as a wake-up from bed exercise.  Only doing 2 or 3 sets w/ the last set only 30 'reps' vs 4 sets of 40.   Today I climbed into a cold shower, rubbed my front, let water hit my pits (to clear/stimulate lymphs?), doused my head.. then switched to warm.  Luxuriated, then turned faucet back to cold as it goes, turned around so it hit my back  Got used to it, rubbed down my back and legs, turned to my front, a little more head (help keep the hair?) ended, turned off water and did some chanting. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by thelerner

[zanshin]

Try one of these to monitor blood oxygenation as well as heart rate. Wow, price has come down is past couple years too.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00W294IUA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1454033013&sr=8-3π=SX200_QL40&keywords=pulse+oximeter&dpPl=1&dpID=41TfOua%2Bb5L&ref=plSrch

 

I stayed well in 90s with about 2 min hold (all I could do), then zoomed to 100. If you go into 80s for very long maybe not good for your brain.

[juliank]

I am on Day 7 of this breathing method and this is fantastic. I am under a tremendous amount of pressure right now, launching a business, doing a major event, starting a new job, and dealing with financial pressure from all sides, and I have been able to withstand in the face of all this with a sense of ease, trust and resilience. All this mind you, with less sleep than usual, not meditating as much or doing yoga as is my usual routine.

 

I am a believer, full stop. 

 

PS. I find that shaking the energy out during, and post breathing makes a huge difference. If you don't know what that means disregard.

[thelerner]

Try one of these to monitor blood oxygenation as well as heart rate. Wow, price has come down is past couple years too.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00W294IUA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1454033013&sr=8-3π=SX200_QL40&keywords=pulse+oximeter&dpPl=1&dpID=41TfOua%2Bb5L&ref=plSrch

 

I stayed well in 90s with about 2 min hold (all I could do), then zoomed to 100. If you go into 80s for very long maybe not good for your brain.

Nice, someone on the facebook page recommended this kind of device but I hesitated because it was in the $60 range, but for $19 it's a buy.  Thanks.

[bax44]

I am on Day 7 of this breathing method and this is fantastic. I am under a tremendous amount of pressure right now, launching a business, doing a major event, starting a new job, and dealing with financial pressure from all sides, and I have been able to withstand in the face of all this with a sense of ease, trust and resilience. All this mind you, with less sleep than usual, not meditating as much or doing yoga as is my usual routine.

 

I am a believer, full stop. 

 

PS. I find that shaking the energy out during, and post breathing makes a huge difference. If you don't know what that means disregard.

 

yeah Ive only been going for 5 days now, usually do 3-4 rounds of the breathing followed by the cold shower.. Ive had a couple late nights and have been very sloppy w diet and alcohol and yet I feel pretty energized. I cant attribute it all to the cold either as I have long been using cold to cool down the inflammation in my body(I have chronic fatigue).. The breathing is definitely doing something. I also as I said do reichian breath/bodywork 1-2 times a week and I find that this practice compliments that to a great degree. Similar breathing styles. I also feel like as if I am not breathing as much and not needing as much air during the day. According to the bueteka(sp?) breathing method they claim that someone who is healthy doesnt need to breathe as often. Pretty interesting stuff but so far the experiment has been succesful enough for me to continue.

[z00se]

Yeah i was really surprised by how many pushups i could do while holding my breath. But if i'm walking around while i'm doing the 30 breaths or so, i can't hold my breath for very long at all compared to if i'm sitting down when doing the 30 breaths.

 

I found the practice fun but i've still been doing HT too at the same time. It's fun because it's different. I really do feel like i'm cheating in the cold shower department though. I put the water on cold right from the start and have only cold showers, but the water isn't even cold, it's been warming up in the catchment areas all summer haha.

 

I want to sus the practice out a bit more. Has anyone tried doing it before they sleep? Or without the cold showers? It seems to me the cold shower part is just a test of being able to hold that inner balance while stressing yourself, a bit like weight lifting but for holding ones center.

 

I'm always dubious about anything that can affect my sleep, if i have two bad sleeps in a row that's the beginning of a downward spiral for me.

[juliank]

Cold showers are amazing before bed, sleep is much better. However, you will feel energized for a good 30 minutes or so, but then you will konk out like a stone. I do not recommend doing the breathing before bed, but cold shower, yes.

[thelerner]

Yesterday I did a Polar Plunge in Lake Michigan, the water was 33 F.  It was no big deal, I followed the crowd around the bend, dipped my head in, left the water then ran around to get in line to do it again.  It felt really easy.

 

Likewise today I hit the oriental King Spa- home to a dozen crazy sauna rooms from amethyst to ice, from salt to Gold (22 karat) pyramid room.  Dipping my toes in a few months it felt insane to go into the ice water sauna.  Today it felt no colder then a swimming pool.  Likewise there uber hot sauna I could only take 45 seconds of last time (190 on the bottom, 240 in the middle, they cook eggs on the top), this time I stayed in for quite a while, it didn't seem all that bad.

 

The ice room, was the same, it felt like air conditioning.   When I pointed that out, a fellow sitter told to sit with my back against the wall.  That helped make it colder but I felt I could sit there indefinitely.  There is a chance that in all these things it was a very crowded day and these were indeed less extreme then on quiet days, when doors stayed shut.

 

But.. there is also no doubt that I'm physically and mentally tougher and temperatures don't bother me as much. 

[Fu_doggy]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have been practicing WHM daily for 7 months, though as of now I am into month 8.   In his training program, Wim teaches four rounds of 30 breaths/hold, followed by pushups on the held exhaled breath.  

 

However, I have slowly increased the number of rounds.   At this point I have found when I practice 8 rounds, the practice is *extremely* revitalizing.  So, I might suggest after you get the hang of the practice to gradually start increasing your number of rounds.   I haven't gone past 8 rounds yet, but I eventually will because increasing rounds is like the fountain of youth....it's really energizing and the energy stays with you 24/7.  

 

After 4 months of WHM I was doing up to 48 pushups on a held breath, and I mean full pushups with good form....and I'm 61 years old.  

 

BTW, I never have gotten to long breath holds.  My longest hold is 2 minutes, and only in the past few weeks have I begun to hit that mark.  That said, I've hit 2 minute holds 3 days in a row this week.  I believe if I keep practicing consistently I will go past two minutes, however, I have learned to be patient and just let increased hold time happen when it happens.  

 

Going into my 8th month I can say hands down that WHM is the most energetic, healing methodology I have practiced.  

[thelerner]

Very inspiring Fu-doggy.  I've been doing fewer cycles since I 'graduated' but I should spend some time, at least once a week with longer sets. 

 

Here's a good video explaining the (possible) benefits:

(he does lay it on a little thick)

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by thelerner

[Fu_doggy]

Lerner -  it's my experience a single day of 8 consecutive rounds gives very tangible benefits.

 

You brought up a good point about developing a "post WHM course" routine.  I found increasing the breath/hold rounds to be really beneficial.   

 

At this point, I can't say I can tolerate cold as well as you described you have done (which is admirable), however I can tolerate a good deal of it.  Last week I was visiting Las Vegas and walking in the cold night air.  While everyone else was in a jacket, I was in a t-shirt *and didn't feel cold* at all.   

 

After you have tried going for longer rounds, please come back and post your experience.  

[johndoe2012]

The breath hold is very good.

 

I managed 2 x 30 push ups after doing the breathing from the high existence website.

 

Normally I have difficulty doing 20 with good style.

[bax44]

The breath hold is very good.

 

I managed 2 x 30 push ups after doing the breathing from the high existence website.

 

Normally I have difficulty doing 20 with good style.

 

I wouldnt follow their breathing instructions.. they are different than what the method actually recommends. most the work should be done on the inhale, not the exhale like that site suggests.. Do the deep inhale and just let the breath go, as opposed to "blowing up  the balloon" as the high existence site recommends. Its MUCH better this way. I tried it the way they recommend the first few days and felt like I was really straining myself. Just a tip.

[Creation]

I wouldnt follow their breathing instructions.. they are different than what the method actually recommends. most the work should be done on the inhale, not the exhale like that site suggests.. Do the deep inhale and just let the breath go, as opposed to "blowing up  the balloon" as the high existence site recommends. Its MUCH better this way. I tried it the way they recommend the first few days and felt like I was really straining myself. Just a tip.

I think this reflects a change in Wim's own instructions. 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Creation

[Fu_doggy]

johndoe -  I have the same experience with pushups.  

 

Normally, I have to work hard to get to 30.   However, with WHM on the exhale/hold I can easily hit between 42 and 48.   I say "easily" because my arms never get tired.....I just run out of breath and stop when I have to inhale.

 

Actually, I bought a pair of pushup handles so I could go lower at the bottom of my pushups (which is more challenging) and I still hit 36 to 42.   And still, it's not my arms that give out, but my breath.  

 

If (and when) my breath hold gets better, I'm confident I will break 50 normal pushups on an exhale/hold. 

 

By writing this I just motivated myself to do another 4+ rounds of WHM breathing and pushups.....catch you later.  

[johndoe2012]

johndoe -  I have the same experience with pushups.  

 

Normally, I have to work hard to get to 30.   However, with WHM on the exhale/hold I can easily hit between 42 and 48.   I say "easily" because my arms never get tired.....I just run out of breath and stop when I have to inhale.

 

Actually, I bought a pair of pushup handles so I could go lower at the bottom of my pushups (which is more challenging) and I still hit 36 to 42.   And still, it's not my arms that give out, but my breath.  

 

If (and when) my breath hold gets better, I'm confident I will break 50 normal pushups on an exhale/hold. 

 

By writing this I just motivated myself to do another 4+ rounds of WHM breathing and pushups.....catch you later.  

 

Sometimes I do pushups using two kettlebells. Harder for the wrists and then I can go lower.

[Fu_doggy]

OK, I will share some of my observations of WHM.

 

(1)  My breath holds are significantly longer in the morning vs. the night.  My breath holds are longest when I do WHM soon after I wake up.

 

(2)  Sometimes on the exhale breath hold, I go into an extremely peaceful, very calm state of consciousness, such that I can lose track of whether I'm holding an exhale or an inhale.  

 

(3)  So far I get best results by holding the inhale hold for about 40 seconds.   That said, I'm still experimenting to find the optimal inhale breath hold time.

 

(4)  On the inhale hold, (when you enter a highly oxygenated state....for simplicity I will call it a controlled hyper-ventalation state) I find the deeper the sensation of hyper-ventalation/tingling, the more healing and revitalizing.   On days where I feel this strongly during WHM, I feel the especially energized and revitalized during the day.  

 

(5)  During the inhale hold hyper-ventalation state it *feels* that you are coming come close to losing consciousness, however, in reality there is a very deep subtle consciousness that I have notices that's in complete control.  This deep state of consciousness is very subtle and I didn't recognize it until I had been practicing WHM about 6 months.  

 

OK, those are some of my observations.  For those practicing WHM, please share your experience.   

[thelerner]

[thelerner]

FWIW, I'm changing my style of the exhale retention a little.  Instead of holding out til I'm edging on frantic, the last few days I'm giving up earlier.   Before I get the heavy diaphragm heaves and my body feels like its suffocating.  

 

I'm assuming this will shorten my retentions times at first, then due to better relaxation and less thought (which burns energy) will make for longer or at least pleasanter retention. 

 

Doing it the last few days but not timing it.  I think by the 3rd and 4rth round I'm getting long 1 1/2 minute plus retentions, I think.  Worth experimenting with.  In bed in the morning I'm also taking the breaths slower, breathing in and out through my nose.  Which forces me to go slower and less frantic.  The yogic breathing I do afterwards is going well.  I'm doing 9in - 36hold - 18exhale and its going pretty smoothly.  

[Fu_doggy]

Learner - please keep us posted on progress.

 

I have reduced my inhale holds from about 40 seconds to about 25 seconds (Wim says at least 15 seconds) and I'm going to see the effect on the length of my exhale holds.

 

Also, (just for fun) I just ordered a finger oxygen and pulse meter. I want to see what happens to blood oxygen and pulse rate during the breath holds.

[thelerner]

Timed it today, its is certainly lower.  one minute, a couple of minute twenty seconds.   Shorter, but worth trying out for awhile.  I also hold the inhale hold for longer then 15 seconds, usually between 20 to 30 seconds with a long, very pleasant and relaxing, slow exhale that takes about 7 or 8 seconds.   

 

Here's a question, when do you stop the long exhale retention breath?  What are you feeling, how is your body reacting at that time? 

 

Not sure what benefit I'm getting from it, but you may want to try yogic breathing ala Silent Ground after the Wim Hof breathing. Inhale, long hold, medium long exhale, repeat.  Patterns start with 8- 8 - 8, 8 - 10 - 10, 8 -12 - 12.. with longer holds and exhales.. like 8 - 22 - 16,  8 - 24 - 16, lately I'm working with the 9in - 36hold -18exhale.  Its interesting.   I've been slowly getting into the longer sequences.  Next one is 10 - 40 - 20 and goes up to 14 - 56 - 28..  

 

The can only do such extreme breathing rhythms after Wim Hof training.  I get the feeling there is a good reward, maybe deep peace if you can get to the back end of the deep breathing.  Cause you ultimately need to let it stop, be still and let the long breath cycle linger on naturally. 

[Nungali]

I did variations of this with a finishing Aikido (Aki-kai) breath exercise - at the end, after a vigorous, exercise. The aim is to decrease breath rate of , draw in, pause, breathe out, pause ...   as soon as possible.  The good guys could go from a gasping pant to near still breath in  4 - 5 breaths.  At the same time, of course, their heart rate rapidly dropped.   The breaths were done in sitting 'za-zen' ( legs tucked under ) and learning full forwards, breath out, full upright- breath in ; posture and movement should coincide, as breath is all out full body bent down and forward .... hold ....   for  ?  .... body moves up (slower than last cycle) as breath starts to come in, body full upright as lungs fill to max - hold for  x ( but longer each cycle )

 

I suppose some of you aikido practitioners   have done it ?    

 

Different exercise than Wim's , but all part of gaining control of the autonomous system. 

[Nungali]

FWIW, I'm changing my style of the exhale retention a little.  Instead of holding out til I'm edging on frantic, the last few days I'm giving up earlier.   Before I get the heavy diaphragm heaves and my body feels like its suffocating.  

 

I'm assuming this will shorten my retentions times at first, then due to better relaxation and less thought (which burns energy) will make for longer or at least pleasanter retention. 

 

I found this better  when I did the Aikido exercise.     besides ....   forcing ?   

 

It did take a little longer ... but not really as the other way was mostly fails,  end up as you described, gasping or getting out of rhythm later . 

 

If I took even 2 more breaths extra and worked at extending the length of each one, and the length of the still points (on exhale and inhale )  I found after then, I was able to go a lot slower each one and get my rates down quicker overall.

 

But I wasnt doing pushups without breathing . 

 

I think the idea was ,  you maintain that still consciousness, low breath and heart rate, while doing the exercises, throwing rolling being dynamic .... so the experienced were not that gasping at the start of the exercise anyway. 

[thelerner]

The Wim Hof is way different then the Ki-breathing done in many Aikido dojos.  Wim Hof is 30 to 40 fast deep breaths followed by a very long hold done after breathing out versus the slow deep even breaths of Aikido, which tended to culminate in a one minute long breath cycle. 

 

Forcing is pretty much never a virtue in Aikido, but in the Wim Hof method you want to see how low you can go, alkalizing the body, physically hacking the brain and body with a specific kind of stress, that triggers a deep relaxation.   Still, I'm wondering if I can combine the two somewhat.  How far I can control the suffocation response or relax into it, which to me, means quitting earlier then I've been doing.   

 

The ultimate hope that through relaxation I'll equal or better my times versus trying to max out the retention phase through toughening it out as long as possible.  Even then I'm continually telling myself to relax, be the peace..  Still there may be deeper peace in surrendering; giving up early. 

 

My assistant sensei used to say the feeling you get in meditation, that peace, is how one should perform Aikido.  Though in general you take what you can get. 

 

 

addon> Thinking of Aikido and Wim Hof breathing.. During a winter misogi where we'd walk into a freezing icy river, dip down a few times and ki-aia repeatedly.  If a person had trouble warming themselves afterwards the instructor would have them do deep fast breathing.   Not too different then the Hof method. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by thelerner