The decline and eventual fall of the USA as world superpower?

[Marblehead]

why would the us implode under its own weight?

Maybe because just the public debt in the US (this is not considering all private debt) is 17 trillion dollars, a debt that can never be paid. One day our economy will collaspe because it is built on sand.

[rene]

narveen / marblehead - yes, economic.

 

It's not that we have debt, which is a normal healthy function of any economy,

 

it's that ours is out of whack past the ability to ever deal with... this side of a total reset.

 

 

Exponential growth, anyone?

 

That chart is an old one. It shows $9 Trillion in 2008.

We are now at $17 Trillion in 2013.

 

If it were on the chart - this year's red line

Would go up above this post.

 

 

[ralis]

narveen / marblehead - yes, economic.

 

It's not that we have debt, which is a normal healthy function of any economy,

 

it's that ours is out of whack past the ability to ever deal with... this side of a total reset.

 

 

Exponential growth, anyone?

 

That chart is an old one. It shows $9 Trillion in 2008.

We are now at $17 Trillion in 2013.

 

If it were on the chart - this year's red line

Would go up above this post.

 

 

 

 

Would like to add the approximate 90 trillion in outstanding derivatives held by Wall Street banks. Derivatives that have no underlying assets. Also the extremely low capitalization requirements to debt. That is the reason Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros. went bankrupt.

[rene]

ralis, yep. fun times ahead.

 

Would like to add the approximate 90 trillion in outstanding derivatives held by Wall Street banks. Derivatives that have no underlying assets. Also the extremely low capitalization requirements to debt. That is the reason Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros. went bankrupt.

[ralis]

other empires were political structures

the us is a cultural empire that has covered the entire planet

and help lifted 300 million above the poverty line in china alone

eight of the top global brands are american

faltering europe and asia are now latching onto the powering up of the american economic engine

why would the us implode under its own weight?

 

All empires must have resources and the U.S. is no different. Whether it was Rome or the British, resources were sought after as the empires expanded. The U.S. must maintain a bloated empire with a military watchdog.

 

To claim that the U.S. is only a cultural empire is a simplistic point of view. The U.S. sets up and takes down regimes on a continuing basis. Whether the coups in S. America, Vietnam or supporting strongmen (Saddam Hussein) in the middle east, the U.S. has been involved in social and political affairs. Whether you believe it or not, the facts are written in the historical archives.

 

The U.S. is becoming less of an economic force given the destruction of the middle class which in the past represented the largest per capita purchasing power in the world.

Edited July 14, 2013 by ralis

[joeblast]

middle class jobs being replaced with EBT cards

 

 

econ collapse blog says there's a total of about $441 trillion in leveraged derivatives out there.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-441-trillion-dollar-interest-rate-derivative-timb-bomb

Edited July 14, 2013 by joeblast

[narveen]

Maybe because just the public debt in the US (this is not considering all private debt) is 17 trillion dollars, a debt that can never be paid. One day our economy will collaspe because it is built on sand.

 

hold on a minute

scientists must go by facts

your 17 trillion includes other stuff.

we need to compare us public debt with those of other countries, apples to apples,

the usa isn't as bad as europe,

included for info are figures for the united kingdom, japan, russia and china:

 

europe

germany - 3.4 trillion economy and public debt 81% of gdp

france - 2.6 trillion economy and public debt 90% of gdp

italy - 2.0 trillion economy and public debt 127% of gdp

spain - 1.3 trillion economy and public debt 84% of gdp

 

united kingdom - 2.4 trillion economy and public debt 90% of gdp

japan - 5.9 trillion economy and public debt 214% of gdp

china - 8.2 trillion economy and public debt 32% of gdp

russia - 2.2 trillion economy and public debt 7.7% of gdp

 

usa - 15.7 trillion economy and public debt 72.5% of gdp

 

the usa is the most technologically powerful economic engine on the planet

with every other country in tow

if we fall, the whole world fall with us.

[joeblast]

narveen, you've got to stop ignoring data you dont want to see.

[ralis]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/13/greenwald-u-s-should-be-on-its-knees-begging-that-nothing-happens-to-snowden/

[ralis]

hold on a minute

scientists must go by facts

your 17 trillion includes other stuff.

we need to compare us public debt with those of other countries, apples to apples,

the usa isn't as bad as europe,

included for info are figures for the united kingdom, japan, russia and china:

 

europe

germany - 3.4 trillion economy and public debt 81% of gdp

france - 2.6 trillion economy and public debt 90% of gdp

italy - 2.0 trillion economy and public debt 127% of gdp

spain - 1.3 trillion economy and public debt 84% of gdp

 

united kingdom - 2.4 trillion economy and public debt 90% of gdp

japan - 5.9 trillion economy and public debt 214% of gdp

china - 8.2 trillion economy and public debt 32% of gdp

russia - 2.2 trillion economy and public debt 7.7% of gdp

 

usa - 15.7 trillion economy and public debt 72.5% of gdp

 

the usa is the most technologically powerful economic engine on the planet

with every other country in tow

if we fall, the whole world fall with us.

 

It is obvious that you are beating the drum for the U.S. but it is time to take off the 'rose colored glasses' and face reality.

[rene]

the usa is the most technologically powerful economic engine on the planet

with every other country in tow

if we fall, the whole world fall with us.

 

Yes, we know.

[rene]

narveen,

 

ratios and stats and numbers can be arranged and viewed to support any perspective.

the way I sort this out - is to look at raw data, rather than debt to gdp, or debt to whatever.

 

the only thing i see with 'exponential growth' - is the public debt.

is there another component with this growth pattern?

there may be and i've missed it.

 

if everything was changing in the same manner there'd be no problem, imo...

 

but if this were a human body,

it would be like the skin increasing in size x10

while the bones and organs only double in size.

 

its the out of proportion aspect

with the other components of the system.

[Apech]

narveen,

 

ratios and stats and numbers can be arranged and viewed to support any perspective.

the way I sort this out - is to look at raw data, rather than debt to gdp, or debt to whatever.

 

the only thing i see with 'exponential growth' - is the public debt.

is there another component with this growth pattern?

there may be and i've missed it.

 

if everything was changing in the same manner there'd be no problem, imo...

 

but if this were a human body,

it would be like the skin increasing in size x10

while the bones and organs only double in size.

 

its the out of proportion aspect

with the other components of the system.

 

I think even the negative figures that we a presented with are misleading. Debt for instance is always there for economies which work in the way that ours do. The British Empire at the height of its power was in debt. There are a lot of other factors which have to be taken into account at the same time.

[ralis]

 

 

 

ratios and stats and numbers can be arranged and viewed to support any perspective.

the way I sort this out - is to look at raw data, rather than debt to gdp, or debt to whatever.

 

Yes. One may ask as to what the U.S. economy is based on? Financial sector is 8.4% of gdp, 30% of all profits are made by the financial sector. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/12/14/389487/financial-sector-gdp-recession/ Who benefits by this large chunk of profits? The elitist 1% for producing nothing! The banks whine and cry that if they are not allowed to grow, such banks will not be competitive. Competitive for what purpose?

 

The U.S. economy is largely based on service, fast food and other disposables, which is contrary to real wealth. The manufacturing sector in 2011 was 12.2 % gdp and I believe is still declining. http://www.manufacturing.gov/mfg_in_context.html

[rene]

Yes. One may ask as to what the U.S. economy is based on? Financial sector is 8.4% of gdp, 30% of all profits are made by the financial sector. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/12/14/389487/financial-sector-gdp-recession/ Who benefits by this large chunk of profits? The elitist 1% for producing nothing! The banks whine and cry that if they are not allowed to grow, such banks will not be competitive. Competitive for what purpose?

 

The U.S. economy is largely based on service, fast food and other disposables, which is contrary to real wealth. The manufacturing sector in 2011 was 12.2 % gdp and I believe is still declining. http://www.manufacturing.gov/mfg_in_context.html

 

My read on the trends is the same as yours. The financial sector doesn't bother me; that is and was always imaginary (as compared to asset-backed) and at most, imo, only makes the walls of the bubble a tad thinner. The decline in real-asset (manufacturing, etc) is more of a concern, mostly because its not possible (just by its nature) for its growth rate to keep up with the other spiraling aspects.

 

Add to this the increase in reliance on the gov't for everything - and you have the middle class being sucked dry from both ends. Is there a solution? I dont know; I dont think so. If a 're-set' took all the wealth of the 1% and most went to the lower end of the 99% (if there was anything left after paying off US debt) - it might stable things out financially for a while...BUT... it's a complete change of system and it wouldn't be sustainable over time. The middle class MUST survive (somehow) to support both ends of this spectrum.

 

Socialism works great - until you run out of other people's money. (Thatcher said that, i think)

 

All I can do is have my own ducks in a row... and watch.

 

Do you see any solutions?

[Marblehead]

your 17 trillion includes other stuff.

No. That is the actual debt of my government. The amount of money it has borrowed from individuals, corporations, and other countries. That is a no-default, unsecured real debt. It borrowed this much money to do all the things it has wanted to do without asking permission of those who will be required to pay the interest on that debt, that is, in the most part, the middle income working Americans.

 

 

Edit to add: I won't question the rest of your data because I don't want to spend the time looking it up.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Do you see any solutions?

Yes, but I'm not tellin' 'cause everyone would think that I am crazy.

[rene]

Yes, but I'm not tellin' 'cause everyone would think that I am crazy.

 

We already think that. What's your idea?

 

(-:

[rene]

ralis - I misspoke on something. When i said i dont care about the financial sector, what i meant is i dont care about the elitist 1%. because when this all collapses, they wont have any more 'food on the table' than I will. I do care about the financial sector because their policies exacerbate how soon it will happen, and the size of what will happen, and when this bubble goes *pop* *pop* *pop* - what falls on us all wont come near resembling soap suds.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

We already think that. What's your idea?

 

(-:

Thanks. I'll take that as a compliment.

 

Well, step one would be to put Americans back to work manufacturing products that would be affordable and wanted by lower and middle income working people. These would be products that would be bought for their true value for the price. Yes, I know this would be difficult at first but it can be done. Many thing would have to be done to get it started though.

[zerostao]

maybe start with solar panel systems for the masses.(or any new energy tech)

there are school buildings in kentucky that are generating more electricity than they are consuming.

[idquest]

maybe start with solar panel systems for the masses.(or any new energy tech)

there are school buildings in kentucky that are generating more electricity than they are consuming.

I agree. The leadership in modern world is determined by the ability to generate and consume technological advances and innovations. So far the USA have been successful in this area. But look what's happening in major technological universities. This is no secret that vast majority of students are from Asia. The trend is obvious.

[narveen]

narveen, you've got to stop ignoring data you dont want to see.

 

what data is that, joe?

 

point it out and let's discuss it like adults and not like twitter twits

i am 35.

how old are you?

[rene]

Thanks. I'll take that as a compliment.

 

Well, step one would be to put Americans back to work manufacturing products that would be affordable and wanted by lower and middle income working people. These would be products that would be bought for their true value for the price. Yes, I know this would be difficult at first but it can be done. Many thing would have to be done to get it started though.

 

I agree with this, and what zerostao and idequest just said. Only problem, though, is it would take shutting the doors.

 

Even if there were no unions (and i'm not saying there should or shouldn't be) but even paying only minimum wage to an American worker - you still couldn't produce a shirt to be cheaper than one brought in by WalMart. You'd have to close the doors to ALL imports. You would also need to stop all exports. You would also need to stop the migrant workers coming in from Mexico to pick crops - so that all the Americans who used to work in producing goods created for overseas trade now had an opportunity to work...

 

Are those part of the things that would "have to be done to get it started" ?

[narveen]

I agree. The leadership in modern world is determined by the ability to generate and consume technological advances and innovations. So far the USA have been successful in this area. But look what's happening in major technological universities. This is no secret that vast majority of students are from Asia. The trend is obvious.

 

asian students come from a culture

that has been staring at the harsh reality for the last 200 years

that's why they go for technology and not liberal nonsense

 

still, the culture for creativeness and innovation is american

china is quite content to follow america's lead for at least the next 100 years.