The decline and eventual fall of the USA as world superpower?

[ralis]

if anything, i hope to disuade anyone from going down the same worn out hellish roads that lead to failed revolutions,or,

just replaces one tryanny with another. the thing that all of those failed attempts have in common, is their use of "divine violence"

every revolution that has used violence as an ends to the means has always failed. there only becomes a new state that is possibly even worse than the one it deposed.

 

 

permit me to share some johann albrecht meylahn from university of pretoria;

http://zizekstudies.org/index.php/ijzs/article/view/399/480

 

I agree. In a democracy or what is left of it, we can still try to elect better representatives. Social nonviolent activism. When I see posts such as the ones by NAJA it reminds me how ignorant so many are of history and social dynamics.

 

To quote from a 'Tale of Two Cities'

 

"IT WAS the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way- in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."

[Marblehead]

it doesnt make sense for the anarchist to become a simultaneous cop/judge/juror/executioner.

that is the tryanny that the anarchist opposes.

That's why I doubt that social anarchy would work.

[Marblehead]

if anything, i hope to disuade anyone from going down the same worn out hellish roads that lead to failed revolutions,or,

just replaces one tryanny with another. the thing that all of those failed attempts have in common, is their use of "divine violence"

every revolution that has used violence as an ends to the means has always failed. there only becomes a new state that is possibly even worse than the one it deposed.

Albert Camus stated that in one of his books.

[zerostao]

i didnt know camus did, but i am not surprised. having been french and born in algeria at the time that he was, would have qualified him to speak about this.

my main sources are derrida, another frenchman born in algeria ! imagine that.

and zizek.

the link i gave considered "divine violence" as a type of deconstruction.

derrida is the founder of deconstruction.

zizek, is offering an alternative vision of social arrangements. he is critical of conservatives and classic liberals.

a quick look at zizek with a broad brush stroke

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek

but the previous link i posted is a deeper finer brush

[Marblehead]

I am a bit strange in that I am a conservative regarding my life and how the government (not Republican, Conservative) should be run but I have so many bents toward a liberal society.

 

I didn't know Zizek so I had to look him up. (I wanted to know his age. He follows Camus but Camus is not listed as one of his "influenced by".)

[voidisyinyang]

So actually the problem with democracy goes back to Plato defining humans as being "compromised for the good of the state" and so each citizen is given the value of an irrational ratio - first approximated by music ratios - the 9/8 ratio at the major 2nd music interval.

 

This established logarithmic social relations to justify exponential economic differentials as natural law and justice.

 

Economist Michael Hudson revealed this connection:

 

 

The Pythagorean clubs became a network of civic cults rising
above the local sphere to which most clubs related. There seems to have been
some connection with the Delphi temple (the name Pythagoras means “voice of
Pythia,” the snake-goddess of Delphi and its oracle). They have been likened to
the Free Masons, in that they served as a kind of Council of Foreign Relations or
New World Order…. Archytas developed the musical scale into a political
metaphor for the scales of justice. What gave music this imagery of social balance
and just proportion was the ability of its mathematics of harmonic (“geometric”)
proportions to serve as an analogy for how inequities of wealth and status
rendered truly superior men equal in proportion to their virtue — which tended to
reflect their wealth. By this circular logic the wealthy were enabled to rationalize
their hereditary dominance over the rest of the population.

 

“Music as an Analogy for Economic Order in Classical
Antiquity” in Jürgen Backhaus (ed.), Karl Bücher. Theory, History, Anthropology, Non-Market Economies
(Marburg:Metropolis Verlag, 2000): pp. 113-35:

 

Yeah so these were "anti-democratic" clubs - but the thing is that those social relations were codified into democracy.

 

So representative democracy is actually based on logarithmic or exponential economic differentials.

 

The only way around this is to recognize the inherent yin-yang dynamics of number itself and natural law is based on male-female energy dynamics - from before Plato.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

So no one thinks for themselves? got it. im an alien. fuck humans.

[Marblehead]

im an alien.

We already knew that.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

We already knew that.

 

The sad part is I am trying to motivate you, but you're okay with it... you don't mind how much potential you've given away with nothing in return... you're okay with subliminating and suppressing your own freedom, compromising.

 

 

You're fine with an uncompromising "necessary evil" paradigm... You're okay with being a program without free will...

 

 

 

Free will to be the programmed anarch... so beautifully contradictory yet infuriatingly hypocritical... To be so unwilling to think for yourself that you will elect someone to do it for you...

 

 

I cannot help but wonder against wonder why it is that I am not allowed to be so indignantly offended by this mentality as being a dominant power over my own life... my environment controlled by a majority of mindless drones programmed to think and act a certain way in a grand and majestic orchestra thrust upon me against my will, without my consent?!

 

 

An act of war upon my person that goes unnoticed, ignored, played down, scoffed, ridiculed, suspended from public view.

 

 

 

But I will immortalize myself even if only to spite each and every responsible party, as to piss on all your graves and watch your matter be wasted for an eternity.

 

[Marblehead]

Well, actually, I think you might be a delusional alien.

 

Why are you so bent on destroying yourself instead of just living within the environment you live? Don't like the environment? Move.

 

All things will pass and that includes me and you. We really don't matter all that much.

[narveen]

i meant to say that the first iraqi war was to drive saddam out of kuwait.

sorry for the error which has been amended now.

 

We lost in Vietnam because we didn't understand the teachings of Sun Tzu.

 

i believe we lost in vietnam because of presidential idiocy.

never mind the strategy and lack of an end-game

sun tzu would have been appalled at the rationale for starting the military conflict in 1961

vietnam was to america what stalingrad was to hitler's germany

at least the germans had a just cause - stamp out the russian menace

we are still confronting the russian problem today (something hitler foresaw)

but the threat of global communist domination by russia and china, was unreal

 

if us presidents get to be commander-in-chiefs,

then they should not only be american-born citizens

but also graduates from west point.

that should cut out the pointless grief us presidents bring

to americans placed in the line of fire.

 

We have lost in Iraq for the same reason and we will lose in Afghanistan for the same reason.

 

i thought we won the war, militarily, in iraq.

by late 2008, conditions were stabilized for initiation of us withdrawal

and us/iraqi hand-over agreements were signed by both parties

accordingly, all us troops left iraq in december 2011.

 

as for the war in afghanistan, it was launched less than a month after 9/11.

when the taliban government refused to hand over osama bin laden

sun tzu would have approved.

the whole world approved

even putin gave russian support and provided territorial access for the invasion when turkey ( a nato ally) wouldn't

the taliban government quickly collapsed and all major town and cities were captured.

that was an appropriate american response that her 9/11 "eye-for-an-eye" attackers understood

mission accomplished, and an american military withdrawal right after that would have been ok,

followed by a covert cia global hunt for anti-american terrorists.

afghanistan is irrelevant.

why the us is still mucking around there with drone-killings is something else.

 

The Middle East wars are all about oil and money.

 

of course it's about oil and money, not just for the usa but for world economic stability including that of the middle-east.

do you know that american military operations in the middle-east to keep oil flowing from opec nations have arab support?

jet fuel for us fighters during the gulf wars years were paid for by saudi arabia.

god knows what else went on between the flowers and the bees while folks like you and i lounged in the garden.

 

And now that there is a plentiful supply of oil the gas prices have gone up $.40. Why? Because the rich bastards can do it and get away with it. Our government is supporting them.

 

i will give you that 40 cents

a small price to pay

to win you back on the side of the government

 

That is true, Tao does not care. But the Sage does. You cannot be Tao but you could be sagely.

 

you can be sagely

i would rather be tao-ly.

how's that?

Edited July 21, 2013 by narveen

[narveen]

every revolution that has used violence as an ends to the means has always failed.

 

"no revolution without blood" , a chinese saying

 

this is meant to tell the difference between

the inconsequential riff-raffs of activism

and true revolutionaries

Edited July 21, 2013 by narveen

[voidisyinyang]

In its essence, the Indochina war was a war waged by the US and such local forces as it could organize against the rural population of South Vietnam. Regarding the Geneva Accords of 1954 as a "disaster," Washington at once undertook a program of subversion throughout the region to undermine the political arrangements. A murderous repression in South Vietnam led to the renewal of resistance. Kennedy involved US forces in counterinsurgency, bombing, and "population control." By 1964 it was obvious that there was no political base for US intervention. In January 1965, General Khanh was moving toward an alliance with anti-American Buddhists and had entered into negotiations with the NLF. He was removed as the systematic bombardment of South Vietnam began, at triple the level of the more publicized bombing of the North. The full-scale US invasion followed, with consequences that are well known. The civilian societies of Laos and then Cambodia were savagely attacked in a war that was at first "secret" thanks to the self-censorship of the press.

 

The Meaning of Vietnam

Noam Chomsky

The New York Review of Books, June 12, 1975

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19750612.htm

 

The American war was criminal in two major respects. Like the Dominican intervention and the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia, it was a case of aggression, conscious and premeditated. In 1954, the National Security Council stated that the US reserved the right to use force "to defeat local Communist subversion or rebellion not constituting armed attack," i.e., in violation of "the supreme law of the land." The US acted on this doctrine. Furthermore, the conduct of the war was an indescribable atrocity. The US goal was to eradicate the revolutionary nationalist forces which, US officials estimated, enjoyed the support of half the population. The method, inevitably, was to destroy the rural society. While the war of annihilation partially succeeded in this aim, the US was never able to create a workable system out of the wreckage.

 

“Genocide in Iraq, The Case Against UN Security Council And Member States ”

Book Review By Dr Gideon Polya

08 February, 2013

 

“Genocide in Iraq . The case against the UN Security Council and member states” by Abdul-Haq Al-Ani and Tarik Al-Ani (Foreword by Professor Joshua Castellino; Clarity Press, Atlanta) is an extremely important book that sets out the case for prosecution of people involved in the Zionist-backed, US-spearheaded genocide in Iraq during the period of Sanctions (1990-2003). Of course, as recognized by the authors, the carnage continued after the illegal US-led invasion and occupation. However the authors have chosen here to limit consideration to the horrendous effects of Sanctions because they were UN sanctioned, and in being associated with an estimated 1.7 million Iraqi avoidable deaths from deprivation (1990-2003; substantially children; an Iraqi Holocaust and an Iraqi Genocide) violated the intent and letter of international law and international humanitarian conventions devised to protect non-combatants and children.

 

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya080213.htm

[narveen]

hey, pythagor,

 

do you have any mind of your own?

or are you a deaf mute shoving things in other people's faces

to make yourself understood?

[narveen]

So no one thinks for themselves? got it. im an alien. fuck humans.

 

pie guy said that people are awful.

[narveen]

I agree. In a democracy or what is left of it, we can still try to elect better representatives. Social nonviolent activism. When I see posts such as the ones by NAJA it reminds me how ignorant so many are of history and social dynamics.

 

let's not be condescending

towards people who don't think like you do.

intellectual cross-breeding is healthy

even when you feel you are being ridden by an ass.

 

sharing ideas with people who think like you do

is like sleeping with your own sisters

such incestuous relationships

produce warped minds

Edited July 21, 2013 by narveen

[narveen]

I am a bit strange in that I am a conservative regarding my life and how the government (not Republican, Conservative) should be run but I have so many bents toward a liberal society.

 

perhaps the strangeness comes from a fuzziness about what is a conservative value to you and what is a liberal sentiment.

 

cite one liberal bent you have towards a societal ideal of yours

and give an example of conservatism in the running of your own life.

 

you could be surprised that your perceived conflict is an illusion

and that, deep down, your integrity is fundamentally intact

either as a hundred percent sane conservative or a far-left loon

Edited July 21, 2013 by narveen

[voidisyinyang]

hey, pythagor,

 

do you have any mind of your own?

or are you a deaf mute shoving things in other people's faces

to make yourself understood?

 

 

I just watched this doc - Delta Boys - about how Western oil companies are destroying the Niger Delta of Nigeria so that the West gets cheap oil and the Nigerians get the local livelihoods wiped out.

 

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/delta_boys?autoplay=true

 

So the Delta Boys were forced to attack the oil companies, causing billions of dollars in damage from lost revenue.

 

The government bought off some of the militants but the Western oil companies continue their same behavior - destroying the environment, wiping out the local livelihoods.

 

So new militants have taken action again.

 

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/28/drilling_and_killing_landmark_trial_against

 

Chevron is one of the main oil companies in the Niger Delta....

 

 

A San Francisco district court is hearing a case brought by Nigerian plaintiffs who accuse Chevron of recruiting and supplying Nigerian military forces involved in the May 1998 shooting and killing of protesters in the oil-rich Niger Delta. The protesters were occupying a Chevron-owned oil platform called the Parabe, demanding jobs and compensation for environmental damage to their communities.

 

http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059963316

U.S. Supreme Court threw out their case.

 

 

Soon after landing in Chevron-leased helicopters, the Nigerian military shot to death two protesters and wounded several others. The eleven activists were detained for three weeks, thrown into the notorious Nigerian jails. During their imprisonment, one activist said he was handcuffed and hung from a ceiling fan hook for hours for refusing to sign a statement written by Nigerian federal authorities.

 

Just standard fascist genocidal operation for a U.S. client state in the U.S. global empire.

[ralis]

i meant to say that the first iraqi war was to drive saddam out of kuwait.

sorry for the error which has been amended now.

 

 

i believe we lost in vietnam because of presidential idiocy.

never mind the strategy and lack of an end-game

sun tzu would have been appalled at the rationale for starting the military conflict in 1961

vietnam was to america what stalingrad was to hitler's germany

at least the germans had a just cause - stamp out the russian menace

we are still confronting the russian problem today (something hitler foresaw)

but the threat of global communist domination by russia and china, was unreal

 

Your statement proves that you have no concept or understanding of history. E.g. "the Germans had a just cause". Do you even realize why Hitler attacked Russia? Here is a hint; Munich.

 

There is no Communist threat except one created by fear mongers who need an enemy to hate.

 

There are plenty of academic documents that utterly refute your statement of errors.

[narveen]

Your statement proves that you have no concept or understanding of history. E.g. "the Germans had a just cause". Do you even realize why Hitler attacked Russia? Here is a hint; Munich.

 

munich? another activist conspiracy theory?

 

 

There is no Communist threat except one created by fear mongers who need an enemy to hate.

 

well, you are the fear-monger spreading stuff about the enemy you hate: the usa

 

There are plenty of academic documents that utterly refute your statement of errors.

 

what academic documents?

chomsky's rants?

[narveen]

I just watched this doc - Delta Boys - about how Western oil companies are destroying the Niger Delta of Nigeria so that the West gets cheap oil and the Nigerians get the local livelihoods wiped out.

 

it just so happens that the oil is within nigerian terrirtory.

if the usa is as bad as you say, she could just move in a gunship and take that oil for free

the nigerians don't know how to get that oil out of the ground

and that is why they hired the oil companies to get the oil out

meanwhile the nigerians fight among themselves for the oil money

chevron doesn't give a shit who gets the money

nigerian government or the delta thugs

chevron doesn't really care.

all they want is their cut for doing the job.

 

So the Delta Boys were forced to attack the oil companies, causing billions of dollars in damage from lost revenue.

 

they want the oil money, sucker.

you think they care about anything else?

 

The government bought off some of the militants but the Western oil companies continue their same behavior - destroying the environment, wiping out the local livelihoods.

 

western oil companies are contractors hired by the nigerian government

if there are any environmental trade-offs, it is for the nigerians to make the call.

the oil companies would drill your skull if you paid them the right price

it's your skull and you are making the call

if it's not the right thing to do, don't blame the oil companies

kick your own butt

 

So new militants have taken action again.

 

thugs, selfish thugs out for themselves

they are no different than the somali pirates on the other side of africa

 

Just standard fascist genocidal operation for a U.S. client state in the U.S. global empire.

 

you do have a problem, my man.

i need to psycho analyse you

Edited July 21, 2013 by narveen

[Marblehead]

you can be sagely

i would rather be tao-ly.

how's that?

Too much to respond to this early in the morning in that post.

 

Yeah, you go ahead and be Tao-ly. That would be good.

 

Hopefully our troops will be leaving Afghanistan soon.

[Marblehead]

perhaps the strangeness comes from a fuzziness about what is a conservative value to you and what is a liberal sentiment.

That may well be true.

[ralis]

munich? another activist conspiracy theory?

 

 

 

well, you are the fear-monger spreading stuff about the enemy you hate: the usa

 

 

what academic documents?

chomsky's rants?

 

If you care to read, William Shirer's account of the rise and fall of Nazi Germany goes into detail as to why Hitler hated the communists and Jews. It all began in Munich Germany.

 

You have derailed this topic from the OP. Why not participate?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Third-Reich-ebook/dp/B005Z57E18/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374420988&sr=8-1&keywords=rise+and+fall+of+the+third+reich

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Well, actually, I think you might be a delusional alien.

 

Why are you so bent on destroying yourself instead of just living within the environment you live? Don't like the environment? Move.

 

All things will pass and that includes me and you. We really don't matter all that much.

 

I'm here. I matter. You're here. You matter.

WE'RE ALL here, we ALL matter.

 

And before you go defending the douchebags and assholes:

 

We are all equal: Those who trespass upon the free will of others speak into existence that they have no free will, and you may do unto them as you please, for they have, by disregarding the free will of another, forsaken consent and relinquished any rights thereof.

 

 

 

Yeah, I admit, im being a total asshole on these forums, to drive my point home, to open your eyes and ears to the truth of the reality of free will, which you all possess in your own hearts, as sovereign and ultimate authorities over your own selves.

 

 

I've embraced it, that makes me selfish and greedy. the king of evil. I want to share this gift, but it is a gift which cannot be given or lent or borrowed. I must CONVINCE you to secure immortal freedom. weather you live forever, or just long enough to satisfy this lifetime.

 

 

I want to satisfy every life, mine included. but I cannot focus on my life alone, that would leave me miserable.

 

 

I want to see the natural environment of the earth, live in a natural humane community of tribal people.

 

 

I would move there if I knew where there was AND HOW TO GET THERE! Why, in god's name why, do you think I'd be here, bitching, if I could be there working and living?!?

 

 

I swear, you make it out like im some kind of delusional criminally insane threat.