The decline and eventual fall of the USA as world superpower?

[Formless Tao]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits

 

Remove UK from my above list.

 

Add Turkey, South Africa, n Russia questioning the UK regarding the 2009 G20 meeting in UK which im sure the US was in on too.

 

The Germans are now also questioning the UK...

[Formless Tao]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/25/germany-uk-gchq-internet-surveillance

 

Link to German Chancellor unhappy over joint UK/US spying...

[ralis]

http://news.sky.com/story/1109739/snowden-spying-claims-us-bugged-eu-offices

 

It seems these new claims of the US spying on Europe offices is making matters worse for the US. As each day goes by and each extra leak that Edward Snowden releases it seems that more and more countries are asking the US for a full explanation.

 

So far, China, Hong Kong, Russia, South Africa, UK and now the EU. Im sure more will follow.

 

Julian Assange believes that Snowden has more information to leak. If this is the case it seems the US is piling up unhappy enemnies and allies.

 

It seems to me that this leaking is slowly turning the world against the US.

 

Who knows maybe the more Snowden leaks the more it may even help Julian Assanges case in Europe.

 

 

Snowden is not a leaker but a whistleblower. There is a difference. Anyone who accepts the media and government propaganda as to how Snowden is portrayed (leaker and traitor) is not paying attention.

[Formless Tao]

My apologies Ralis for the negative 'leaker' labels above.

 

They should read as correctly pointed out by Ralis the positive 'whistleblower' label instead

[voidisyinyang]

Snowden is not a leaker but a whistleblower. There is a difference. Anyone who accepts the media and government propaganda as to how Snowden is portrayed (leaker and traitor) is not paying attention.

 

Yeah Glenn Greenwald is on top of this!

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/29/edward_snowden_nsa_leaks_glenn_greenwald_on_the_guardian_s_next_scoop.html

 

“In their minds, the only kinds of leaks that are bad are leaks that the government doesn’t want disclosed to the public,” Greenwald said. “The only thing that is journalism to them is when they carry forth the message that has been implanted in their brains by the political officials whom they serve. And I think this behavior highlights the true purpose of establishment journalism more powerfully than anything I or anybody else have ever written.”

[narveen]

I don't want to argue with you this morning but I do want you to know that I have read your post.

 

Yes, we have a different view of the importance of what has happened here. That's okay.

 

it's not ok. you need to sort your mind out. if you are not with us, you are against us. americans need to pull together.

 

if the government is indeed messing up, we the people need to kick the administration's ass and do it PROPERLY.

 

snowdon's behavior is unamerican. his modus operandi is not different than that of those cowardly hijackers who took down the twin towers killing innocent people without warning or care. it's cowardly to blindside your opponent or stab people in the back. americans do not do this.

 

I will agree with your final statement here though and I have said the same thing myself. We, the people get what we deserve. Now we (the majority of Americans) don't trust the government and the government doesn't trust us.

 

this is not acceptable. get in touch with your congressman and senator. you don't put up with bullshit, you said. then do something and raise hell. as clint eastwood said, the government works for you. do you really think the fbi or cia will take you out? you are not living in russia or china or nigeria.

Edited June 30, 2013 by narveen

[ralis]

it's not ok. you need to sort your mind out. if you are not with us, you are against us. americans need to pull together.

 

if the government is indeed messing up, we the people need to kick the administration's ass and do it PROPERLY.

 

snowdon's behavior is unamerican. his modus operandi is not different than that of those cowardly hijackers who took down the twin towers killing innocent people without warning or care. it's cowardly to blindside your opponent or stab people in the back. americans do not do this.

 

 

this is not acceptable. get in touch with your congressman and senator. you don't put up with bullshit, you said. then do something and raise hell. as clint eastwood said, the government works for you. do you really think the fbi or cia will take you out? you are not living in russia or china or nigeria.

 

You wish to engage in divisive rhetoric/propaganda and join the ranks of such notables as Lenin, George Bush and John Ashcroft et al? You would prefer not to know the truth of the NSA spying program and label one who has the balls to reveal the truth as unamerican? Who are you to define what is American? To compare Snowden to the 9/11 hijackers is absurd and just plain faulty reasoning. Congress will do nothing about this egregious violation of our rights and to advocate writing to Congress will accomplish nothing!

Edited June 30, 2013 by ralis

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/12/more_intrusive_than_eavesdropping_nsa_collection

 

More Intrusive Than Eavesdropping? NSA Collection of Metadata Hands Gov’t Sweeping Personal Info

[Marblehead]

it's not ok. you need to sort your mind out. if you are not with us, you are against us. americans need to pull together.

My mind is sorted and stable. It is you who is not seeing the whole picture. But for now I am against you because you are seeing the problem from the wrong side. You are supporting the liars and condemning the truth sayers.

 

if the government is indeed messing up, we the people need to kick the administration's ass and do it PROPERLY.

It is and I have but apparently there are not enough people seeing that there is a problem. If you think there is no problem you will have no reason to do anything.

 

snowdon's behavior is unamerican. his modus operandi is not different than that of those cowardly hijackers who took down the twin towers killing innocent people without warning or care. it's cowardly to blindside your opponent or stab people in the back. americans do not do this.

You are totally wrong here. Snowdon did the right thing. He showed how our government has been lying to us and to other nations. Our government even condemns other countries for doing the same thing our government is doing. That makes it not only liars but hypoctites as well.

 

The twin towers? You've got to be shitting me!!! The FBI and CIA both had info on the gathering of those terrorists who did that. A number of them had expired visas and the FBI knew where they were but did nothing. The FBI was supposed to do a background check on anyone applying for a commercial pilot's license but yet they did not (or covered up their doing) conduct a background check on any of them.

 

What Snowdon did is totally different from what the terrorists did and you should be ashamed for linking him to them.

 

this is not acceptable. get in touch with your congressman and senator. you don't put up with bullshit, you said. then do something and raise hell. as clint eastwood said, the government works for you. do you really think the fbi or cia will take you out? you are not living in russia or china or nigeria.

 

I have already done so. Have you? Likely not because you think there is no problem.

 

No, the government no longer works for me. It works for itself. It has become a living organism capable of taking care of itself because it simply takes anything it needs. Doesn't even have to ask anymore.

 

You were not alive during the late forties through the mid-sixties so you know nothing about what America was and can be.

 

But as long as people keep demanding support from the government they will continue to be indebted to the government and as long as the government keeps giving they are going to keep taking and every turn will allow the government to become more powerful and have more control over the life of the people.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/12/is_edward_snowden_a_hero_a?autostart=true&get_clicky_key=suggested_next_story

 

Is Edward Snowden a Hero? A Debate with Journalist Chris Hedges & Law Scholar Geoffrey Stone

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/28/jamiol-presents-88/

 

Appropriate Channels for whistleblowers

[Marblehead]

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/28/jamiol-presents-88/

 

Appropriate Channels for whistleblowers

Well, as we don't have a "Don't Like This" ticker on the forum I have to state up front that I didn't like that one.

 

I hope you were just joking. Hehehe.

[narveen]

My mind is sorted and stable. It is you who is not seeing the whole picture. But for now I am against you because you are seeing the problem from the wrong side. You are supporting the liars and condemning the truth sayers.

 

i am not supporting the government. i am debating your reason for supporting snowdon.

 

It is and I have but apparently there are not enough people seeing that there is a problem. If you think there is no problem you will have no reason to do anything.

 

correct. this is a downside of democracy. if the dumb majority doesn’t act, the wise minority has to stuff it in. chalk this up as one cause for snowdon’s action.

 

snowdon won’t stuff it in and the wise minority sees him as a hero because they know the dumb majority won’t act and needs saving. am i getting this right?

 

You are totally wrong here. Snowdon did the right thing. He showed how our government has been lying to us and to other nations.

 

snowdon showed you and the minority of wise guys who are slick in the mind and quick on your feet unlike the dumb majority who are sheep.

 

Our government even condemns other countries for doing the same thing our government is doing. That makes it not only liars but hypoctites as well.

 

welcome to the world, my friend. you weren’t born yesterday, you said. if you want a better world, drop dead. this is the way we humans are - liars, one and all. i lie, you lie, everybody lies. chalk this up as another cause for snowdon’s action.

 

The twin towers? You've got to be shitting me!!! The FBI and CIA both had info on the gathering of those terrorists who did that. A number of them had expired visas and the FBI knew where they were but did nothing. The FBI was supposed to do a background check on anyone applying for a commercial pilot's license but yet they did not (or covered up their doing) conduct a background check on any of them.

 

on hindsight, that is your judgment. my judgment is that america before 9/11 was a free and safe country and everyone wanted to come to america. (people still do.) back then, once past immigration (federal government), you could disappear from the radar screen, get a license, buy a car, find work and live the good life in any state in the union. and americans were a trusting gracious lot who accept everyone and would show anyone no matter what gender, race or creed how to fly an airplane. 9/11 changed all that. now, no one of any description can board a flight from anywhere in the world to the us without clearance. all airlines comply with us security requirements or they don’t fly to us ports-of-call. even americans don’t have that easy passage and the “welcome home” anymore when they get back from abroad. now that the problem has become homegrown, the noose has to tighten around everyone for the sake of all.

 

What Snowdon did is totally different from what the terrorists did and you should be ashamed for linking him to them.

 

snowdon is not terrorising you and your minority. it all depends on which side you are on. i just don't like cheats, that's all. if you are doing it the wrong way, you can't be doing the right thing. i don't believe in robin hoods.

 

I have already done so. Have you? Likely not because you think there is no problem.

 

no, i haven’t. on the contrary, i think the system we are living in is a grave problem. i don’t like it anymore than you do. where we part ways is the approach to dealing with the problem. if all this reading of the tao te ching didn’t open my eyes to how people play dirty in the name of the tao, i would pay no heed to principles and jump on the snowdon bandwagon with you.

 

it’s good that you talked to your political representatives even though you know the system doesn’t work for you. i am curious about what they said to you.

 

No, the government no longer works for me. It works for itself. It has become a living organism capable of taking care of itself because it simply takes anything it needs. Doesn't even have to ask anymore.

 

seems that way.

 

You were not alive during the late forties through the mid-sixties so you know nothing about what America was and can be.

 

true. even in its shoddy shape now, america is still the best place on the planet. even the loveliest places in europe, don’t do it for me. there is no energy there in their cities. and for natural beauty, the Chinese don’t call america “beautiful kingdom” for no small reason. we have it all including the likes of snowdon. can you imagine a russian or chinese whistle blower let alone one allowed to scamper all over the globe without being neutralized within 24 hours?

 

i think hollywood is responsible for shaping our perception of snowdon as a hero. he is coming across as jason bourne, the victim of operation treadstone. unlike you, i know when i am watching a movie and when it's real life.

 

But as long as people keep demanding support from the government they will continue to be indebted to the government and as long as the government keeps giving they are going to keep taking and every turn will allow the government to become more powerful and have more control over the life of the people.

 

is the situation really that bad, for you personally in your neck of the woods? you still get to enjoy your coffee and your smokes and work on your pretty neighbour’s swimming pool and feel great being alive at 72 in your flower garden. that’s something to celebrate. i will right now pour myself a glass of wine and drink to your happiness. i may even come down your way with my guns and we can go shoot some ducks in the everglades. what do you say, pardner?

 

cheer up. if things get real bad we can always move up to canada. it's almost as good as the usa.

[voidisyinyang]

Well, as we don't have a "Don't Like This" ticker on the forum I have to state up front that I didn't like that one.

 

I hope you were just joking. Hehehe.

 

 

Sibel Edmonds -- that's her website - she created an organization of whistleblowers. She was FBI - and she's the most censored whistleblower in U.S. history - or something like that.

 

So her point is that Snowden could not go through "official channels" as others claim because the official channels are so corrupt to make them obsolete. Hence the comic.

 

Whistleblowers can not even go to the "alternative" media since it's controlled by corporate-state foundations, etc.

 

So they have to go to Sibel Edmonds.

 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/how-a-30-year-old-lawyer-exposed-nsa-mass-surveillance-of-americans-in-1975/

 

How a 30-year-old lawyer exposed NSA mass surveillance of Americans—in 1975

[Marblehead]

Sibel Edmonds -- that's her website - she created an organization of whistleblowers. She was FBI - and she's the most censored whistleblower in U.S. history - or something like that.

Thanks for the explanation! I feel much better now. So much so that I take back the "Don't Like This" point.

[Marblehead]

i am not supporting the government. i am debating your reason for supporting snowdon.

Okay. I needed to test your alignment. I support Snowden because he told the truth. The truth sometimes hurts, especially if your character is such that you tell more lies than truths.

 

correct. this is a downside of democracy. if the dumb majority doesn’t act, the wise minority has to stuff it in. chalk this up as one cause for snowdon’s action.

Perfect!

 

snowdon won’t stuff it in and the wise minority sees him as a hero because they know the dumb majority won’t act and needs saving. am i getting this right?

You are so close you could reach out and touch it. (Except be careful with judging wise/dumb. I haven't done that.)

 

snowdon showed you and the minority of wise guys who are slick in the mind and quick on your feet unlike the dumb majority who are sheep.

Unnecessary comment. All you are doing here is trying to strengthen your position, just like Obama did when he called Snowden a "hacker". Snowden is not nor ever was a "hacker".

 

welcome to the world, my friend. you weren’t born yesterday, you said. if you want a better world, drop dead. this is the way we humans are - liars, one and all. i lie, you lie, everybody lies. chalk this up as another cause for snowdon’s action.

I don't lie (anymore). True, I may have a misunderstanding of something or I may have an illusion or delusion about something but I will always speak "my truth". (Unless I am just joking around, of course; and I do that fairly often.)

 

Yes, I know how the "real world" is. This is why I mostly just stay home. I have plenty to do here to keep my body and mind challenged.

 

I will stop here and continue in another post.

[Marblehead]

on hindsight, that is your judgment. my judgment is that america before 9/11 was a free and safe country and everyone wanted to come to america. (people still do.) back then, once past immigration (federal government), you could disappear from the radar screen, get a license, buy a car, find work and live the good life in any state in the union. and americans were a trusting gracious lot who accept everyone and would show anyone no matter what gender, race or creed how to fly an airplane. 9/11 changed all that. now, no one of any description can board a flight from anywhere in the world to the us without clearance. all airlines comply with us security requirements or they don’t fly to us ports-of-call. even americans don’t have that easy passage and the “welcome home” anymore when they get back from abroad. now that the problem has become homegrown, the noose has to tighten around everyone for the sake of all.

Yes, but it started with the US's failure in Cuba and because we failed in Cuba it was decided that we could get an easy win in Vietnam. We failed there too. And we have been failing every since. Sure, the nation is still strong - we have lots of resources in the US and can easily buy the resources most oother countries have.

 

snowdon is not terrorising you and your minority. it all depends on which side you are on. i just don't like cheats, that's all. if you are doing it the wrong way, you can't be doing the right thing. i don't believe in robin hoods.

Snowden is not terrorizing anyone. All he did was speak the truth.

 

Yes, there still are Robin Hoods. Many of them - willing to put their life on the line in order to do what they feel is the "right thing".

 

no, i haven’t. on the contrary, i think the system we are living in is a grave problem. i don’t like it anymore than you do. where we part ways is the approach to dealing with the problem. if all this reading of the tao te ching didn’t open my eyes to how people play dirty in the name of the tao, i would pay no heed to principles and jump on the snowdon bandwagon with you.

We won't always agree with each other but we should at least have principles we can support with sound reasoning and logic.

 

it’s good that you talked to your political representatives even though you know the system doesn’t work for you. i am curious about what they said to you.

They simply stated their position and that was the end of it. The e-mail was one of those "do not reply" type things so I knew there was no reason to speak further.

 

true. even in its shoddy shape now, america is still the best place on the planet. even the loveliest places in europe, don’t do it for me. there is no energy there in their cities. and for natural beauty, the Chinese don’t call america “beautiful kingdom” for no small reason. we have it all including the likes of snowdon. can you imagine a russian or chinese whistle blower let alone one allowed to scamper all over the globe without being neutralized within 24 hours?

Hehehe. What a two-sided post!

 

Yes, I still love my country and would die in its defense. But I have a problem with my government.

 

Yes, Snowden was aware of what our government could do before making his first releases. He was prepared.

 

i think hollywood is responsible for shaping our perception of snowdon as a hero. he is coming across as jason bourne, the victim of operation treadstone. unlike you, i know when i am watching a movie and when it's real life.

Bad comparision between you and me. You don't know me. I wonder if you even know your "true self".

 

Where do you think the idea for the "Bourne" series came from? It came from "real life".

 

is the situation really that bad, for you personally in your neck of the woods? you still get to enjoy your coffee and your smokes and work on your pretty neighbour’s swimming pool and feel great being alive at 72 in your flower garden. that’s something to celebrate. i will right now pour myself a glass of wine and drink to your happiness. i may even come down your way with my guns and we can go shoot some ducks in the everglades. what do you say, pardner?

All good until you got to the last two sentences. I don't hunt and I don't even fish anymore. I couldn't justify killing fish when I spend so much time trying to keep my pond fish alive and healthy.

 

Yep, life is great for me. I do feel sad for generations younger than mine though.

 

cheer up. if things get real bad we can always move up to canada. it's almost as good as the usa.

Hehehe. No sadness here. All is well in my world. I shouldn't even care but I do.

 

No, I will die here. I'll be fine.

[manitou]

I'm coming in rather late to the conversation but I do have a few thoughts. They relate to karma.

 

We, the U.S., in order to build our country, kidnapped nearly an entire continent of people to build it for us against their will. Then, once the country was built, the kidnapped and enslaved people were released, but no further thought was given to their welfare. There was no organized attempt to socialize the freed slaves into society, no organized attempt to teach them living skills appropriate for this country.

 

Then, from the mid 1800's to the present time, we white folks have treated the ancestors of the slaves with contempt; an attitude of barely 'tolerating' them. Being quite content to see them living in projects, living nearly at an animal level. Keeping them separate and unequal.

 

We say 'It wasn't me that did this - it was my ancestor!' (My ancestors, the Greenleafs, were actually builders of slave ships in Massachussetts in the 1700's - I do not exempt my self from this story either)

 

And do recall that time is an illusion, that it's all actually happening now. It sure is, it's still happening. Whoopie, we have a black president. Personally, I love him. But did anybody else catch the snippet on the news right after he was first inaugurated when it showed a group of republicans rallying and vying to get the White House back? Do you know what they actually said (I heard it on MSNBC but only heard this clip once - I looked for it again and again and never saw it again) - there was a republican man standing at a podium and getting everyone excited, saying "What's the first thing we're going to do when we get the White House back?" And someone in the crowd shouted "Fumigate It!" resulting in peals of laughter.

 

that's what I'm talking about. What the F**k kind of karma do we think we deserve?? The laws of equity in the universe are not going to let this nation escape its karma. We don't deserve to escape the karma. Of course we're going down. That which must be deflated must first be inflated. Our inflation is about at an end, IMO.

Edited July 1, 2013 by manitou

[Jetsun]

"US combs through half a billion of German phone calls, emails and text messages on a monthly basis and has classified its European ally on the same target level as China, a German news magazine revealed.

The NSA document leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden and published by Der Spiegel classified Germany as a “third-class” partner, on the same level as China, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, meaning that the US surveillance in Germany was stronger than in any other EU country.

NSA snooped through 20-60 million German phone connections and 10 million internet data sets a day, Der Spiegel claims.

In comparison, US tapped around 2 million connection data a day in France."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/spying-on-our-allies-us-taps-half-billion-german-phone-and-internet-activities-a-month/5341085

Why are they so worried about Germany? I don't think the Germans are going to be happy about this considering they are meant to be allies now

[silent thunder]

I'm no longer surprised by the lack of trust and abuse of power in any organization. To lead requires power. Those who desire, seek and achieve power of control over others, require aggressive, violent, manipulative, psychotic/socio-pathic tendencies in order to succeed and maintain.

 

In any political, religious, or grass roots organization, if the person/s in authority do not possess, display and master these skills/traits, they do not maintain their authority for long. It's inherent to the structure and is compounded by the size of the organization and the mindset of the culture. In this case, on this level, I see very little difference in east/west.

 

If kept small enough, the inherently negative aspects of leadership can be held in balance with a bit more success. But any large or wildly successful organization is going to be rife with psychotic tendencies, due to the nature of the people attracted to the positions of highest authority and the requirements of maintaining that authority. There is always another one waiting to knock off the king. The Sword of Damocles is ever-present.

 

I see this not being the norm on all levels and in all locations; there are, of course, always exceptions. But the overall culture of leadership and control in east and west, both display a deep psychosis from my perspective.

[narveen]

that's what I'm talking about. What the F**k kind of karma do we think we deserve?? The laws of equity in the universe are not going to let this nation escape its karma. We don't deserve to escape the karma. Of course we're going down. That which must be deflated must first be inflated. Our inflation is about at an end, IMO.

 

maybe you got your history wrong, pal. the slaves were not brought to america by americans. it all began with the french, the dutch and the spanish bringing slaves to the carribean and brazil. according to wikipedia, slavery had been practiced in British North America from early colonial days, and was firmly established by the time of the United States' Declaration of Independence (1776).

 

your need for self-flagellation is not doing any good for the american narrative and will keep on feeding "white guilt" forever. it's 2013. time to move on.

[Apech]

By 1783, following the American Revolutionary War, an anti-slavery movement to abolish the slave trade throughout the Empire had begun among the British public.

In 1808, after Parliament passed the Slave Trade Act of 1807, the Royal Navyestablished the West Africa Squadron. The squadron's task was to suppress the Atlantic slave trade by patrolling the coast of West Africa. It did suppress the slave trade, but did not stop it entirely. It is possible that, when slave ships were in danger of being captured by the Royal Navy, some captains may have ordered the slaves to be thrown into the sea to reduce the fines they had to pay. Between 1808 and 1860 the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. They resettled many in Jamaica and the Bahamas.

[narveen]

 

By 1783, following the American Revolutionary War, an anti-slavery movement to abolish the slave trade throughout the Empire had begun among the British public.

In 1808, after Parliament passed the Slave Trade Act of 1807, the Royal Navyestablished the West Africa Squadron. The squadron's task was to suppress the Atlantic slave trade by patrolling the coast of West Africa. It did suppress the slave trade, but did not stop it entirely. It is possible that, when slave ships were in danger of being captured by the Royal Navy, some captains may have ordered the slaves to be thrown into the sea to reduce the fines they had to pay. Between 1808 and 1860 the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. They resettled many in Jamaica and the Bahamas.

 

resettled in jaimaca and bahamas? why not back from where they were taken: Africa?

[narveen]

Snowden is not terrorizing anyone. All he did was speak the truth.

 

he is terrorizing the administration. if the white house doesn't watch it and handle this matter the way it has been handling the other messes, obama could see judgment day before his term is over.

[Marblehead]

he is terrorizing the administration. if the white house doesn't watch it and handle this matter the way it has been handling the other messes, obama could see judgment day before his term is over.

And I will suggest that the administration deserves to be terrorized. They lied and are conducting illegal activities.

 

I must say that the Obama administration is no better than the Bush administration was. Power-hungry and fearful of losing any of the power they have.