Love Shys, Involuntary Celibates, True Forced Loneliness, etc.

[ilumairen]

20 hours ago, gendao said:

Well, if you think it's bad in Europe...then you've obviously never been to the US before, lol!

I've been to both, and the US is a wholleee 'nother ball game, bro!  That's why it has been GROUND ZERO for all the various men's movements (PUA, MRA, MGTOW, INCEL, etc, etc).

 

Hmm... perhaps consider the area, instead of painting the US in one broad stroke?

[ilumairen]

13 hours ago, gendao said:

So, if the "alpha males" are getting MULTIPLE women but incels aren't...even though their views of women/sex are just as "unattractive"...then what's the difference?  They are simply more "alpha," are better BS artists (less honest), and/or more physically attractive?

 

They're not whining? 

 

16 hours ago, Dame Du Lac said:

A part of this is the moping, whiny attitude about how they feel they're entitled to sex.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by ilumairen

[SirPalomides]

The key difference is waiting for the third date before talking about the Annunaki.

[ilumairen]

Been looking up the terms in the title.

 

This being the most recent I read today:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Love-shy.com

 

The rest weren't much more pleasant. 

[gendao]

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

They're not whining? 

No, Dame Du Lac basically verified the Incel thesis that Looks >>> Personality when she said how both "alpha males" with harems and incels have equally "unattractive" views of women.  If anything, the alpha males may just be more dishonest about them.

 

Which would also explain why a 5'7", slightly-balding Indian guy still fails at dating at 30...even with a great, upbeat, and non-whiny personality.

Quote

I’ve been told by people that I can be quirky (in a good way), that I can make them laugh, even been described by one friend as a true gentleman, and still like to show my creative side every now and then

So, now what happens when this friendly gentleman goes on a (BLIND, of course, lol) date?

Quote

Holly: “The potential to meet the man of my dreams (although I’m not sure if Aidan Turner has time to date between filming).”

Holly: “He wasn’t quite Aidan Turner.”
Holly: “No, I don’t think we were a great match, but we still had fun (and the steak was delicious).”
Holly: “Shahan is extremely open and friendly, and made me feel at ease.”
Holly: “I would have had more wine.”
Holly: “No, we went our separate ways.”
Holly: “Not for me I’m afraid.”
Holly: “Not for a date, but maybe as friends.”

IOW, she thought he had a good personality, but she just wasn't even interested from the GET-GO because he didn't have prerequisite TV star looks...much less the ultimate (Incelist) fantasy of being a hot, wealthy, dominant, alpha male with "considerable length," lol. So, the only thing she enjoyed on their date was the free dinner, although she wished she could have chugged more booze while she had the chance, lol.

Meanwhile, Aidan Turner could fart in her direction and she would sniff it deeply until her thighs quiver...

 

Of course, a lot of this female sexual leverage is actually supplied by men who no longer have to marry a woman to get sex anymore.  Thus, with that high bar removed...it's become a limbo contest for men for how low each will go to blow their nuts.  In this scenario, nearly any woman will do...except even the most beautiful women will be avoided if they refuse sex!

Quote

Olympian Lolo Jones says that being honest about her virginity ‘was a mistake’

Lolo Jones has long been open and honest about being a virgin. But now, the 37-year-old athlete says that her candidness “was a mistake.”
she admitted that being an open book about waiting until marriage hasn’t done good things for her dating life. Instead, she said that her brutal honesty has only hurt her chances of finding a man.
“That killed all my dates after that,” Jones said of publicly discussing her virginity. “Like didn’t even have a chance. Before, at least I had a chance. Before, I’d like, tiptoe. ’Okay, when’s a good time to tell him? Do I wait until he sees my personality a little bit? Or do I just drop the bomb?’”

So, there ya go - now the female counterpart - a 37-yo single woman.  Clearly, it's not her "whiny personality" that is the problem here, right?  In fact, isn't being openly honest about maintaining your personal values displaying high integrity?  Rather, it's simply that she REFUSES TO HAVE SEX UNTIL MARRIAGE.  Full stop.  So, what's the point of expending lots of time and energy (resources) dating her...when you can't have sex, right?  But you could more easily with someone else?

What we are seeing here is thus that both genders' primary "romantic" value to each other has been reduced to sex...of which personality is nearly irrelevant.

 

I know real life isn't necessarily as extreme as these examples...but I can certainly see the general trend as such, especially amongst the younger generation.

Edited January 26, 2020 by gendao

[SirPalomides]

 

19 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Been looking up the terms in the title.

 

This being the most recent I read today:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Love-shy.com

 

The rest weren't much more pleasant. 

Oh yeah it’s an utter cesspool. It’s one thing to be lonely, shy, etc and completely another to gravitate toward a depraved, vicious misogynist ideology often dovetailing with fascism and other forms of reaction. 

[Toni]

If u r not attractive and hot, women will not even give u a chance

[ilumairen]

2 hours ago, Toni said:

If u r not attractive and hot, women will not even give u a chance

 

So, the world was a better place when fathers chose their daughter's husbands? 

 

And if this isn't your solution/conclusion, I'd like to hear what actually is.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by ilumairen

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, gendao said:

No, Dame Du Lac basically verified the Incel thesis that Looks >>> Personality when she said how both "alpha males" with harems and incels have equally "unattractive" views of women.  If anything, the alpha males may just be more dishonest about them.

 

Oh my stars, aren't you the happy little cherry picker - seeing only what verifies your predetermined conclusion. 

 

1 hour ago, gendao said:

Meanwhile, Aidan Turner could fart in her direction and she would sniff it deeply until her thighs quiver...

 

"Until her thighs quiver," eh?

 

As usual, you're far to verbose for your own good...

 

1 hour ago, gendao said:

So, there ya go - now the female counterpart - a 37-yo single woman.  Clearly, it's not her "whiny personality" that is the problem here, right? 

 

 

Another false correlation; she's not involuntarily celibate.

 

1 hour ago, gendao said:

I know real life isn't necessarily as extreme as these examples...

 

I'm glad you recognize this much at least...

 

 

[thelerner]

Isn't there a large middle ground, where people want to hook up and have realistic views of the opposite sex?  Realizing that they themselves aren't rich, great looking or that charismatic and want to find a good person?   That the opposite sex are human like themselves; don't view them as evil or manipulative, that they can be warm caring funny sexy entertaining aggravating engaging. 

 

If Incels can't reach that point of understanding.  If they use social media to reinforce how victimized they are by woman, then there's little hope of a satisfying relationship.  Not the end of the world, but too bad.  Men and woman compliment each other.  A good relationship is a warm hearth.   

 

Loneliness is tough, its bitter.  I wish it was easier to meet and have fun, to shelve the pressure, sexual and otherwise.  I met my wife 25 years ago at what was called a Gail Prince singles meet.  It was at a large night club, not that there's as many of those, for better or worse. 

 

At the beginning of the party you filled out cards with your name and phone number.  There was an interesting rule, that if someone gave you a card, you couldn't give them a card back.  Strange but it made psychological sense because you didn't have to commit to anything or hurt peoples feelings.   Anyhow the party would divide up the room by asking questions like what your favorite ethnic food.  Then get people together in small groups of equal men and woman.  And have them discuss why.

 

My future wife and I broke the rules by giving each other cards at the same time.  It was a decent way to meet.  Too bad coffee houses and bars don't have safe designated meeting areas. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, Toni said:

If u r not attractive and hot, women will not even give u a chance

 

Women aren´t my specialty but I don´t think this is true.  Maybe it just seems so if you´re trying to hook up online.  I look around and see lots of unattractive and decidedly unhot (at least in the conventional sense) married men.  Did they all just let themselves go after securing the ring?  I don´t think so.  I think they forged real relationships based on more than just looks and, you know, fell in love.

Edited January 27, 2020 by liminal_luke

[gendao]

5 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Another false correlation; she's not involuntarily celibate.

Well, there is no direct equivalent, because there is basically no such thing as a female incel.

 

But she is a counterpart in the sense that she is also perpetually single, not due to her personality or looks, but for no other reason than simply because she refuses to put out and have sex.  Which thus boils down relationships to their CORE ESSENCE.  That is the simple TRUTH.

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Isn't there a large middle ground, where people want to hook up and have realistic views of the opposite sex?  Realizing that they themselves aren't rich, great looking or that charismatic and want to find a good person?   That the opposite sex are human like themselves; don't view them as evil or manipulative, that they can be warm caring funny sexy entertaining aggravating engaging. 

 

If Incels can't reach that point of understanding.  If they use social media to reinforce how victimized they are by woman, then there's little hope of hooking up.  Not the end of the world, but too bad.  Men and woman compliment each other.  A good relationship is a warm hearth.   

Well, their proposition is that they are so ugly that they don't fall in the middle ground to begin with.  And furthermore, this middle ground has also been shrinking due to female hypergamy, since no one needs to exclusively and permanently pair off 1-to-1 anymore.  Therefore, if everyone is just going for hook-ups without demanding commitment, then a majority of women don't mind time-sharing Alpha anymore, who offers no exclusivity or commitment.

Is HIS personality just "so great?"  Better than Shahan's?

 

Again, these are extreme examples just used to better isolate and illustrate general trends.

 

There is also clearly a lot of subjectiveness to what's "hot," etc, etc...

 

I have literally seen this my entire life, to some degree, no lie.  But also some seeming exceptions to that rule (or just different subjective standards?).  Hasn't everybody?  Is this really some big secret?

 

What if all the common aphorisms are really backwards?  What if the secrets to life are that...money CAN buy happiness?  Looks ARE everything?  Might IS right?  Romantic love is EXTREMELY conditional.  Maybe both versions of each are right, situationally and paradoxically, lol?

Edited January 27, 2020 by gendao

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, gendao said:

Well, there is no direct equivalent, because there is basically no such thing as a female incel.

 

 

Whoa...maybe I don´t understand the terms here.  Are you saying there are no women who would like to have sex and aren´t getting any?  That´s what incel means, right -- involuntary celibate??  I think there are plenty.

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, gendao said:

Well, there is no direct equivalent, because there is basically no such thing as a female incel.

 

 Perhap's lonely women haven't banded together beneath the header of some acronym, but surely you aren't suggesting lonely women don't exist?

 

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

 Perhap's lonely women haven't banded together beneath the header of some acronym, but surely you aren't suggesting lonely women don't exist?

 

 

Lonely women exist but nobody notices them.  

[gendao]

10 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 Perhap's lonely women haven't banded together beneath the header of some acronym, but surely you aren't suggesting lonely women don't exist?

No, involuntary celibate women don't exist.  Pretty much any women can get SEX, unlike men.

You will never find a 40-yo virgin woman, unless it was voluntary...

Edited January 27, 2020 by gendao

[ilumairen]

@gendao

 

To be as blunt and direct as possible, you are full of shit, and quite arrogant in your ignorance.

 

And the movie is a horrible example, as he also runs from sex with the vomiting woman...

[liminal_luke]

6 minutes ago, gendao said:

No, involuntary celibate women don't exist.  Pretty much any women can get SEX, unlike men.

 

I know some lusty women who would beg to differ.  Conversely, a lot of men who think of themselves as incels could get sex but put up a lot of barriers.  Maybe they´re only willing to have sex with women of a certain weight or a certain age.  Maybe they´re only willing to have sex with women who won´t ask anything of them emotionally.  Some men say women won´t have sex with them, but what they really mean is that they can´t find a women to sleep with that meets the criteria of their objectified fantasy.

[thelerner]

24 minutes ago, gendao said:

No, involuntary celibate women don't exist.  Pretty much any women can get SEX, unlike men.

You will never find a 40-yo virgin woman, unless it was voluntary...

Hits google.  Actually there are some.  They see men as frightening Incels, some agree with incels others have body and/or relationship issues.  The internet can amplify fears and insecurities.  Even without it, the world can be a scary lonely place.  Coping by vilifying the opposite sex is not going to move one in the right direction

 

Diving into the net, I see femcels, volcels.

 

I remember being single and looking, as awfully scary.  Like continual job interviews.  Get turned down enough and you get gun shy.. angry, at woman, at yourself.  And that anger at woman, left unchecked is gonna set up a feedback loop thats going to add to ones problem. 

 

My dad has some 'incel' in him.  It kept him from being a good husband.  It also just kept him out of a first rate senior resort living.  After passing the physical and financial standards, they wouldn't let him join their community, said he was too misogynist.  There are costs to looking at the world through red colored glasses. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

The world is full of people who would like to connect with others but, for a variety of reasons, find connection difficult.  Some people are handicapped in ways that make dating and sexual relations challenging.  Some are disfigured.  Some obese.  A good friend of mine told me he´d start dating once he lost weight -- and we all know how that goes.  Then there´s that huge cross-section of people who have experienced sexual trauma, many of whom are lonely and lusty but also frightened out of their minds.  Some people struggle with religious beliefs that get in the way of a satisfying sex life.

 

It´s a huge world out there and everybody has got a story.  

Edited January 27, 2020 by liminal_luke

[ilumairen]

10 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Hits google.  Actually there are some.  They see men as frightening Incels, some agree with incels others have body and/or relationship issues.  The internet can amplify fears and insecurities.  Even without it, the world can be a scary lonely place.  Coping by vilifying the opposite sex is not going to move one in the right direction

 

:bold mine:

 

True.

 

10 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Diving into the net, I see femcels, volcels.

 

More (unpleasant) terms for me to look up. 

 

https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/27/forget-incels-femcels-new-online-terror-haunt-dreams-7665326/

 

Today I'm considering the simplicity of a (pop)culturally ignorant life. 

 

10 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I remember being single and looking, as awfully scary.  Like continual job interviews.  Get turned down enough and you get gun shy.. angry, at woman, at yourself. 

 

 

And yet, you're now happily married with older children...

[gendao]

37 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I remember being single and looking, as awfully scary.  Like continual job interviews.  Get turned down enough and you get gun shy.. angry, at woman, at yourself.  And that anger at woman, left unchecked is gonna set up a feedback loop thats going to add to ones problem.

I would agree that it is better to just accept the basic TRUTH about women, than get angry at them for following their basic instincts.  Reality is, Mother Nature is a beast.  She is raw, primal, beautiful, savage, wild, and creative chaos...like kundalini.  She is the circle that cannot be squared.  There is 1 egg for every ~250 million sperm in a load, which means many males were born to be incels from, well, cells...

 

So...so what if more grown men become incels?  That's Mother Nature's form of eugenic "quality" control.  It is what it is.

 

They do have a right to be angry at being so misunderstood and often forced to socially support women who totally sh*t on them, though.

20 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And yet, you're now happily married with older children...

In general, that's a bad assumption...

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by gendao

[ilumairen]

 

7 minutes ago, gendao said:

In general, that's a bad assumption...

 

 

More pop-culture? I've spent much of my life being what I once referred to as pop-culturally illiterate, and am beginning to recognize it is still a personal preference. 

 

BTW There waa no assumption on my part; he's on my "follow" list and I've been reading his ppd for a rather long time now. But I suppose you wouldn't be happy posting without some odd visual reference... carry on.

[gendao]

14 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

More pop-culture? I've spent much of my life being what I once referred to as pop-culturally illiterate, and am beginning to recognize it is still a personal preference. 

 

BTW There waa no assumption on my part; he's on my "follow" list and I've been reading his ppd for a rather long time now. But I suppose you wouldn't be happy posting without some odd visual reference... carry on.

I was just using that for illustrative purposes.  My actual opinion is based upon personal experience and knowing many other couples.  I personally know of no other married couple from Gen-X and younger that is not teetering on the brink of divorce, held together only by gossamer threads...  I mean, I'm sure there's some, but then again, maybe not?  I just don't know...as once you get to peer behind their facades, they're all simmering Hot or Cold Wars.

 

I've read his PPD posts too - and don't recall much specific mention of his marriage other than just referencing that he is.

 

Again, this is why I think perhaps the natural, primal free-for-all might not just be our natural state.  Women just want to fvck Alpha, and men just want to fvck all the women they can.  So, why not?

Edited January 27, 2020 by gendao

[ilumairen]

28 minutes ago, gendao said:

I would agree that it is better to just accept the basic TRUTH about women, than get angry at them for following their basic instincts. 

 

Yeah, most women don't want to have sex with someone they aren't attracted to on some level.

 

How absolutely horrifying! :mock terror, heavy with sarcasm:

 

Speaking of "basic instinct," long ago I read an article which focused on females generally stronger sense of smell, and how this correlated with subconsciously sensing genetic issues which could be passed on to their offspring if they chose particular mates.