Monogamy in Daoism and other Chinese Thought

[spyrelx]

Hi all,

 

I'm curious about what any of you know about the way monogamy has been treated in Chinese philosophy, religion and culture. I'm particularly interested in Daoism (which I suspect says little about it), Confucianism and Buddhism, but am open to any other views.

 

No offence, but I'd rather stay clear of the High Status Male and Pick Up Artist views (you know who you are) or, frankly, people's personal opinions on the matter (though they are obviously welcome if you think they're relevant to the central theme).

 

I'm really looking for the traditional religious, philosophic view is on the subject.

 

For example, in Judaism and Christianity monogamy is taken very seriously. When a man and woman become a sexual couple they become "one flesh" and doing anything to interfere with that (including cheating on your spouse, divorce, etc.) is looked upon as immoral. Religion being flexible, there are always outs and caveats built up over time but that's the general view of it -- and any daoist on the board can probably see the "energetic" rationale for such a view.

 

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Pietro]

Hi all,

 

I'm curious about what any of you know about the way monogamy has been treated in Chinese philosophy, religion and culture. I'm particularly interested in Daoism (which I suspect says little about it), Confucianism and Buddhism, but am open to any other views.

 

No offence, but I'd rather stay clear of the High Status Male and Pick Up Artist views (you know who you are) or, frankly, people's personal opinions on the matter (though they are obviously welcome if you think they're relevant to the central theme).

 

I'm really looking for the traditional religious, philosophic view is on the subject.

 

For example, in Judaism and Christianity monogamy is taken very seriously. When a man and woman become a sexual couple they become "one flesh" and doing anything to interfere with that (including cheating on your spouse, divorce, etc.) is looked upon as immoral. Religion being flexible, there are always outs and caveats built up over time but that's the general view of it -- and any daoist on the board can probably see the "energetic" rationale for such a view.

 

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

Since you don't want the PU view I'll stay clear of it and answer only for what I know about Taoist and Chinese POV. Essentially Taoism is not, as it has been presented to us by Bruce, fixated on either Monhogamy, or Polygamy or Celibacy. It is all about finding your true nature and sticking to it. And this might mean that some people should (read must) follow a monogamous route, because that's what they are. And some remain celibate, or get into multiple relationships.

 

But then you have Confucianism. And for Confucians, from what I understood not being a Confucian myself, the family is the center of the society. I am not sure if you are allowed lovers on the side. I am not even sure they give much weight to the thing at all. I am quite sure that your wife is supposed to be faithful to you, but how much is a man required to be faithful to his wife I ignore. But what is really important for confucians are the ancestors and the descenents. Because your descendents are the ones that are going to do sacrifices for you once you are dead. And for this reason some Taoists who are also Confucianists (and many neo-taoists are, since neotaoism came out when taoism started to merge with Buddhism and Confucianism), will make sure they have a family, and kids.

 

That's as much as I know about it. I am sure there are then differences between the various types of taoism. Maybe someone else might integrate what said with some more info from China.

[sean]

My off-the-cuff understanding was that the "bedroom practices" of Taoism arose precisely to help men integrate multiple lovers into their practices.

 

Regarding Christianity and Judaism, I think monogamy was tacked on to these religions relatively recently. The old testament is chock full of holy men with multiple wives. Marriage is considered sacred, yes, but I can't recall ever reading anywhere in the Bible where polygamy is denounced or where monogamy is declared to be more righteous.

 

Sean

[spyrelx]

Thanks both of you. Pietro, who is Bruce? Do you mean Frantzis? (and thanks for refraining from PU POV).

 

Sean, I haven't gone back to the bible for a while, but I think by the time of the new testament monogamy is pretty ingrained.

 

Regardless, don't you both think from an energetic point of view anything other than monogomy (or celibacy) becomes a rather difficult undertaking. I mean it's hard enough to balance energy with one person, let alone multiple ones. And that's just energetic. I haven't even gotten into the emotional and psychological aspects of it.

[Pietro]

Thanks both of you. Pietro, who is Bruce? Do you mean Frantzis? (and thanks for refraining from PU POV).

 

Sean, I haven't gone back to the bible for a while, but I think by the time of the new testament monogamy is pretty ingrained.

 

Regardless, don't you both think from an energetic point of view anything other than monogomy (or celibacy) becomes a rather difficult undertaking. I mean it's hard enough to balance energy with one person, let alone multiple ones. And that's just energetic. I haven't even gotten into the emotional and psychological aspects of it.

 

yes, BK Frantzis.

 

It is difficult for me to answer your question from a personal POV without refering to my new PU understanding. I'll just say that if you are naturally poligamous you don't lose energy from multiple partners, in fact you lose energy from having a single partner because of the hidden (often even to you) regret you have against that partner as she stops you from the rest of life you feel is awaiting for you.

 

The fact is that around sex there is this aura of sacredness. Now in Taoism (as it has been presented to us...) they try to shred it, up to the point where making love is just something that happens in life. So some taoist groups will have multiple relationships, before having a single relationship. We are speaking about men who are requested to make love with 1000 women before entering in a relationship.

 

On the opposite in Judaism this sense of something special happening during sex is not only honored, but enhanced in all possible ways. So havng sex with many people tend to water down the experience.

 

I even remember some parts of the bible which said that if you have had with 3 people you basically lost all.

 

While Taoism values equanimity, balance, and the feeling that all is the same, all is smooth and all is ok, Judeo-Christian seem to value having a strong polarity, and chosing clearly between the two poles.

 

But may I ask you why are you asking those questions?

[thaddeus]

Regarding Christianity and Judaism, I think monogamy was tacked on to these religions relatively recently. The old testament is chock full of holy men with multiple wives. Marriage is considered sacred, yes, but I can't recall ever reading anywhere in the Bible where polygamy is denounced or where monogamy is declared to be more righteous.

I think the lying and sneaking around to obtain the extra partners does the damage energetically and spiritually rather than union with more than person.

T

[Taoist81]

On the opposite in Judaism this sense of something special happening during sex is not only honored, but enhanced in all possible ways. So havng sex with many people tend to water down the experience.

 

I even remember some parts of the bible which said that if you have had with 3 people you basically lost all.

 

While Taoism values equanimity, balance, and the feeling that all is the same, all is smooth and all is ok, Judeo-Christian seem to value having a strong polarity, and chosing clearly between the two poles.

 

But may I ask you why are you asking those questions?

??? Where did you find that in the Bible? In the Old Testament many of the "patriarchs" had multiple wives and concubines. Jesus doesn't mention it except to say that in Heaven people won't "be married or given in marriage". And Paul simply stated that a Bishop (specifically) or in some translations a "pastor" should be the husband of one wife. There is nothing in the bible to suggest that one is "lost" after being with three people.

 

As for Taoism, its view of marriage seems to be as varied as its views of everything else. Some sects value celibacy, some polyamory, and some monogamy. Just as some allow one to eat meat and others are against it. Personal experience has shown one can have very meaningful experiences with ones solitary partner, or with a friend, or with a stranger, or with ones partner and a friend (or more). It all depends on mindset, and what you make of a given experience. What can greatly benefit one person, can destroy another.

[Pietro]

??? Where did you find that in the Bible?

 

I wish I knew it. I know I haven't made it up. But I might be repeating something someone else made up.

 

I am just wave handing here, but could it be in the torah, or other jewish sacred texts?

[Yoda]

Actually, I remember reading that gay sex between men is consented to in the Bible in certain situations (bad relationship with wife, plus love between the men). I'd need to email my brother for the verse if anyone is interested.

 

In Wile's Art of the Bedchamber, he quotes that the Yellow Emporer ascended to heaven thanks to a little help from 1,200 consorts.

[Taoist81]

I wish I knew it. I know I haven't made it up. But I might be repeating something someone else made up.

 

I am just wave handing here, but could it be in the torah, or other jewish sacred texts?

Possibly the Talmud? I am not familiar with that collection of texts. The Torah is just the first 5 books of the Hebrew "Bible" commonly known as the Old Testament. They didn't have a stated "limit" there. The Talmud is mostly composed of the "technicalities" that the Rabbis pulled from the Law (like how far you could walk on the Sabbath without it being considered "work") so it certainly could be there.

 

 

Actually, I remember reading that gay sex between men is consented to in the Bible in certain situations (bad relationship with wife, plus love between the men). I'd need to email my brother for the verse if anyone is interested.

 

In Wile's Art of the Bedchamber, he quotes that the Yellow Emporer ascended to heaven thanks to a little help from 1,200 consorts.

 

There are some claims about David and his "best friend" whom the Bible says he "loved beyond the love of women". There are also claims that the "man who lays with man as he would a woman must be stoned to death" was referring to "idolatrous" temple prostitution and had more to do with the worship of other gods than the actual intercourse of homosexuals. But most seem to agree that Jehovah was homophobic. Notably only Paul mentions Lesbians as being bad, not the old testament. So maybe like the stories of the Yellow Emperor, the wives and concubines of the Patriarchs simply hooked up with each other while he was with a particular one of them. who knows.

[spyrelx]

Nice biblical digression. I don't have time to do the research right now, but I think that most scholars would agree that Judaism, from at least the time of the New Testament, was (1) very opposed to homosexuality (an abomination) and (2) also opposed to monogamy. Christianity has been opposed to both since the beginnings of that religion. The fact that powerful men throughout the ages have engaged in polygamy (sometimes with the tactic blessing of the reining religious order) doesn't mean it was approved by the religion.

 

I'm pretty sure of this and can find sources for you if I get the time but really I wanted to focus on eastern stuff.

 

Judging by your comments the taoist perspective seems to be "well, whatever works for you".

 

Does anyone know the Buddhist perspective on this?

 

Pietro to answer your question, I realize that I haven't been monogamous for most of my adult life, and lately I'm not particularly happy with that. And though I have a great list of rationalizations for my conduct, lately I'm starting to think that it's not very productive, or conducive to my own personal growth (not to mention the havoc it's reeked on others).

 

Since daoism has made a lot of sense to me, I'm wondering what they think about this topic. Also, as I alluded to earlier, I think there's a very real energetic component to sex, which fits well with what I know about daoist esoterics.

 

So I'm looking for guidance and wisdom on the topic, and turning to the Chinese, that ancient and subtle culture that has so many wise things to say about the human condition and the way to live our lives.

 

David Bowie's "Modern Love" is playing as I write this. It fits somehow . . .

[Pietro]

Nice biblical digression. I don't have time to do the research right now, but I think that most scholars would agree that Judaism, from at least the time of the New Testament, was (1) very opposed to homosexuality (an abomination) and (2) also opposed to monogamy. Christianity has been opposed to both since the beginnings of that religion. The fact that powerful men throughout the ages have engaged in polygamy (sometimes with the tactic blessing of the reining religious order) doesn't mean it was approved by the religion.

 

I'm pretty sure of this and can find sources for you if I get the time but really I wanted to focus on eastern stuff.

 

Judging by your comments the taoist perspective seems to be "well, whatever works for you".

 

Does anyone know the Buddhist perspective on this?

 

Pietro to answer your question, I realize that I haven't been monogamous for most of my adult life, and lately I'm not particularly happy with that. And though I have a great list of rationalizations for my conduct, lately I'm starting to think that it's not very productive, or conducive to my own personal growth (not to mention the havoc it's reeked on others).

 

Since daoism has made a lot of sense to me, I'm wondering what they think about this topic. Also, as I alluded to earlier, I think there's a very real energetic component to sex, which fits well with what I know about daoist esoterics.

 

So I'm looking for guidance and wisdom on the topic, and turning to the Chinese, that ancient and subtle culture that has so many wise things to say about the human condition and the way to live our lives.

 

David Bowie's "Modern Love" is playing as I write this. It fits somehow . . .

 

Spyrelx, thanks for your answer. I do find that knowing somethng about a person life gives me a better appreciation about the questions asked, and this puts it all in the right context.

 

I really can't stop bringing on the bible thread by saying that I heavily doubt that a powerful man could go so far off the ethic and morality of its society and remain a powerful man. Even in a non democracy. Emeperors have been put down in history, so if powerful man act in a way it probably tells us something of what is at least accepted in the society.

 

I try to add a few extra details on taoism and multiple partnership, now that I understand better where you are coming from.

 

I said that there are people engaging in having none, one or multiple partners. And that part of the training might include having multiple partners before having the partner you want to have kids with.

 

but

 

this kind of behaviour is advocated only for people who follow a very thorough training. Example, a practice might be to be present while a person you are attracted with have sex with someone else. And not interfere. Such practice could totally break a person who does not know how to handle it, while a taoist would meditate and dissolve any feeling of jelousy, anger, attachment. Until they are ok with what is going on. So before doing a practice like a person need to be fairly good in dissolving. This, by the way, is an example of a taoist practice, which is not a water method technique, and yet it involves dissolving. I mention this because many people identifies water method tradition with the practice of dissolving.

 

On the contrary a person who has not been trained and is forced/required to look at a person that they are attracted to make love with someone else might have energetic blockages out of it that hunts him (or her) down for their whole life.

 

This is just one of the possible practices. So I think you need to divide between way of life, and practices. And you need further to divide between what you do when you are dealing with only taoists, and when you are dealing with other folks. Generally with other folks you might need to be more uptight, as they might not have the tools to handle and process your taoist way of life. Having multiple partners might be ok for you, but in our society most people just cannot handle it. Could you train them... maybe, but then you are entering in the whole issue of, am I their teacher or am I their lover.

 

I should also note that Bruce once gave us a long speach on Jelousy, and why it wasn't a good emotion to have in your relationship. This independently if a person is monogamous or poligamous.

 

The fact of having to act differently with only taoists than with other folks is at the base of my desire, at some point to join/found a taoist village/community.

 

 

Pietro

[thaddeus]

So I'm looking for guidance and wisdom on the topic, and turning to the Chinese, that ancient and subtle culture that has so many wise things to say about the human condition and the way to live our lives.

Spyrelx, it seems to me that you found the guidance and answers you need by yourself already. Trust your instinct and keep following it. We will all find light eventually, making transgressions and paying for them eventually becomes tiresome and, as you've learned, counter productive. But it needs to happen so we can learn and move forward.

T

[QiDr]

Buddhism and Taoism both refer to sexual union as needing to be appropriately motivated. The highest level of attainment in Taoism is virtue, and one does not do that which is unvirtuous. Virtue is responding to all beings from an ethical and moral place.

The so called taoist sexual practices that are so compelling to many adolescent seekers are considered a rather base form of cultivation and culturally innapropriate even in China.

[spyrelx]

Thanks to everyone for the fine responses.

 

Thaddeus, you hit me where I live.

[Pietro]

Thanks to everyone for the fine responses.

 

Thaddeus, you hit me where I live.

 

Spyrelx,

I know you closed the topic, but I just remembered that the Dalai Lama in "the art of happiness" claims that romantic love is an illusion. Since you asked what was the Buddhist position this might be of some help.

 

Pietro

[spyrelx]

Spyrelx,

I know you closed the topic, but I just remembered that the Dalai Lama in "the art of happiness" claims that romantic love is an illusion. Since you asked what was the Buddhist position this might be of some help.

 

Pietro

 

 

Thanks Pietro. That's an interesting position (though I suspect that the Dalai Lama might claim that EVERYTHING is an illusion).

 

And I didn't mean to close the topic. More discussion is completely welcome.