Michael Winn, Enlightenment, Monkey Mind

[spyrelx]

I pulled these quotes out of Michael Winn's latest missive. It's rare I complement the man, but these resonated with me quite a lot, so I thought I'd share. Enjoy.

 

 

Silencing the chattering Monkey Mind is one (widely

advertised) aspect in the process [of Enlightenment], but ofttimes is

taken to rigid extremes of asceticism and body denial

in a doomed effort to silence desire. Silence can never

be final or total while living in monkey bodies in

linear time. The function of silence is to give us

clarity in unfolding who we truly are. We are always

going to think, feel, act and perceive as long as we

have a monkey body and have enough chi to enough to

respond to our environment.

 

Contrary to popular myths about shutting down the

Monkey Mind, without the ordinary mind ("xin", or

Heart-Mind to the Taoists), Enlightenment does not

exist and would cease to exist. It is the very

ignorance of the ordinary mind, the very boundary of

sensory perception, and its corresponding sexual and

psychic tension, that allows the process we think of as

Enlightenment to even exist. Ignorance has been

unfairly given a bad name as the cause of all desire

and evil. I believe the human Veil of Ignorance is the

ultimate driver behind the human quest for spiritual

development and creativity.

 

I believe it's why our "formless, all-knowing soul" is

veiled when it begins to crystallize itself into a

clump of flesh, an embryo floating in the amniotic

fluid of our mother's womb. The soul intentionally

separates itself from the transcendent mind of

Heaven-Earth in order to challenge itself, to discover

something new through physicalization in human form.

Who else but our soul, putting on the blind-fold called

Monkey Mind, would ask the curiously dumb questions?

Its our monkey-ness that veers off into unexpected

directions, or tosses out wildly unconscious energies -

that lead to fresh insights and stimulate new solutions

to old problems. The Soul is not stupid when it dons

the Veil of Ignorance. Ignorance is just Wisdom waiting

to be born.

 

So why bother even talking about Enlightenment? Are we

better off silently chewing bubble gum, than blowing

hot air about the wattage in our cosmic light bulbs?

Well, since I have the podium, I'd say a focused

discussion about Enlightenment can be beneficial on

several levels. It might positively affect the mental

body reading the words. Concepts can lead to trying out

useful practices that are more embodied. Words might

occasionally stimulate shifts in perception in other

subtle bodies. The subtle bodies are all linked

energetically, so if the mental body shifts, it ripples

through the others. Words have chi in them, one of

humanity's special gifts. Words are part of the dynamic

flow of Humanity.

 

My experience is that our Monkey Mind's innate

cleverness can be directed to good use. The monkey has

a heart-mind that can be trained to embrace the neutral

point between past and future, Water and Fire, Female

and Male, form and formless. There is a neutral

observation point where the Soul is hanging out, in the

portal between different dimensions of the self. When

the personality brings its free will and focuses its

sexual volatility at that neutral point - Bingo! Our

old resistance to change in linear time/3-D space is

overcome. Soul and Heart-Mind couple and a new identity

is birthed.

 

String enough of those mini aha! moments together and

the Monkey Mind gradually begins to accept the timeless

perspective of its own Soul as an equal reality to its

linear physical perspective.

Edited March 19, 2007 by spyrelx

[thelerner]

There is a neutral observation point where the Soul is hanging out, in the

portal between different dimensions of the self.

 

Boom, that is the reason and aim(IMHO) for emptiness style meditation. Getting to the neutral point, hanging out with the soul.

 

Michael

[Yoda]

My mental body just got buff, thanks! If that ripples to the physical then I'm totally stylin'!

[Spectrum]

Ignorance has been unfairly given a bad name as the cause of all desire

and evil.

 

Where is this view originating? It sounds Indian? Chinese Bhuddist? Not Chan? What is the true source of evil?

 

I believe the human Veil of Ignorance is the

ultimate driver behind the human quest for spiritual

development and creativity.

 

I'm reminded of Shiva standing upon Ignorance. Funny the Hindu concept of zero mirrored the Nothing of Chinese Taoists. Where would we be without 0's and 1's. Back to the River for me.

 

My experience is that our Monkey Mind's innate

cleverness can be directed to good use. The monkey has a heart-mind that can be trained to embrace the neutral point between past and future,

 

Humour is a good one. Love is another. Timeless passages, stories, themes, transformations, steer the compass of the heart on the journey of the soul between birth and death.

 

When the personality brings its free will and focuses its

sexual volatility at that neutral point - Bingo!

 

Human Work - > Art - > Worship ala Ego Death - > ... ?

 

Our old resistance to change in linear time/3-D space is

overcome.

 

Somatic Pattern Dissolution & Transformation - Unique to somatic disciplines and mind body practices.

 

Soul and Heart-Mind couple and a new identity

is birthed.

 

Be ReBorn Birthy Freshly Me

 

String enough of those mini aha! moments together and

the Monkey Mind gradually begins to accept the timeless

perspective of its own Soul as an equal reality to its

linear physical perspective.

 

Another Comment Goes Here.

 

 

Is this prose from a posting on Mr. Winns forum?

[Spectrum]

There is a neutral observation point where the Soul is hanging out, in the

portal between different dimensions of the self.

 

Addressed in true style. Zero point awareness. Dualisms United to Dissolve Illusions of Mind. Avoid clinging onto the sides of the Portal through attachments, pretend it's a hydro tube! I think they closed those because adults were breaking legs; kids have the most fun.

 

The subtle bodies are all linked

energetically, so if the mental body shifts, it ripples

through the others. Words have chi in them, one of

humanity's special gifts. Words are part of the dynamic

flow of Humanity.

 

People often doubt the power of their internal dialog especially when it's self-directed. Language and Communication are interesting topics to bring up here, how closely connected are the dynamic exchange of Words to the langauge of music to deeply and quickly shift subtle bodies. Surely Music is more closely within our origins than words alone. This assumes a de-evolution cosmology perhaps.

 

Spectrum

[林愛偉]

There is no actual "monkey mind"and "monkey heart/soul" as he is saying.

It is only called a monkey mind due to the dual thinking, and wandering thoughts.

 

Duality only breeds duality. When thoughts loose momentum , they will slow, and vanish. That is when there is clarity, immortality, and further cultivation results in enlightenment.

 

Mr. Winn is deep in dual realm and usual discrimination as well as misunderstanding in his views of cultivation.

 

I read an article on him bashing Buddhism.. hahaha and his works on Daoism are no better.

I know Daoist Priests who respect thoroughly the cultivation school of Buddhism, read Buddhist texts, and place

Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on their temple alter because they are cultivators in general, and there is ultimate respect regardless of the manner one takes.

What Mr. Winn says of Buddhism is not Buddhism. It is misunderstanding and ignorance, arrogance.His works on Daoism are only on surface cultivation and intellect. He has put many heads on top of his own.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

[Spectrum]

There is no actual "monkey mind"and "monkey heart/soul" as he is saying.

It is only called a monkey mind due to the dual thinking, and wandering thoughts.

 

 

I think he's talking about a combination of ideas including the idea that humans are evolved monkeys (heart thing) ...

 

monkey see as monkey does

[xenolith]

Winn should be ashamed. The requirement of subjugation of the ego for spiritual evolution is understood.

 

No allusion to monkeys is required. That element's subjugation is implied.

 

spyrelx, what exactly of Winn's comments resonated for you?

Edited March 22, 2007 by xenolith

[林愛偉]

Every animal has characteristics of eachother. Since this is so, it is possible to say that every living being is every living being. They are all made from the same elements. Different compbinations manifest different bodies. These elements have certain qualities, and since humans can discriminate, they tend to associate to certain qualities, and attach to them. At that ppoint, they call them personalities, ego, being.

Human bodies weren't evolved from monkeys. It is just that the elements that make up physical bodies are the same elements in this world system, universe. Physical make up is only the outcome. The manner, the cause for such a physical body to manifest is what it evolves from. Some animals have similar make up to others, some in more percentage than others. That doesn't mean that these bodies evolved from eachother.

It means that the energetic resonance, the causes for those bodies manifestation were a result of other causes, and those causes and the vessel inwhich was created were a good match.

Like drinking water. One used to drink from the hands, then moved to maybe a spoon like object, to a bowl, and now we have cups. The cup is most proper for the water doesn't spill out as easily as it does from a bowl, spoon andoone's hand.

 

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[xenolith]

林愛偉,

 

Send me a sack.

 

Love.

 

xeno

[spyrelx]

Winn should be ashamed. The requirement of subjugation of the ego for spiritual evolution is understood.

 

No allusion to monkeys is required. That element's subjugation is implied.

 

spyrelx, what exactly of Winn's comments resonated for you?

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your critique. I don't think Winn even uses the term Ego. And I think aiwei and perhaps you are going on tangents about the use of the word "monkey".

 

To me what Winn is saying is that part of the human condition on this planet is having a mind that bounces around a lot and grasps at things and never sits still. That's what he's calling "monkey mind", a common term among meditators that has nothing to do with evolutionary theory. It simply means your thoughts jump around (like a monkey).

 

So we have this mind that jumps around. Some argue that's an illusion, some argue that should be repressed. Winn agrees the monkey mind isn't great for you if given free reign, but he is arguing that it's part of the human condition, that it actually exists because our "still mind" soul now exists in this dual world, and also that the energy and curiosity of the monkey mind can be used to further our spiritual evolution.

 

You're right, "subjugation" of the monkey mind for spiritual evolution is a pretty common belief. He's arguing for something slightly different. He says use it and train it, but don't try to defeat it, because it is you as long as you exist here.

 

It's a theory. A grand and poetic one as far as I'm concerned.

 

The idea of stringing those "aha" moments together and inching yourself and your hyperactive mind along the road to trusting stillness makes a lot of sense to me. That's why I posted it.

[Ian]

 

You're right, "subjugation" of the monkey mind for spiritual evolution is a pretty common belief. He's arguing for something slightly different. He says use it and train it, but don't try to defeat it, because it is you as long as you exist here.

 

 

I always feel that he has a point, sort of, but that he's really arguing from a point of view of not wanting to stop being Michael Winn, because he fancies himself so much.

[spyrelx]

I always feel that he has a point, sort of, but that he's really arguing from a point of view of not wanting to stop being Michael Winn, because he fancies himself so much.

 

 

I would agree with that entire statement. As I said when I opened this thread, it's not often that I compliment the man.

[xenolith]

What I'm saying is that within subjugation of ego, one need not be concerned with dealing with the monkey mind, because in the accomplishment of the former the latter no longer exists.

 

The result of ego subjugation is union with the Tao. Which allows movement within it.

 

When one moves within the Tao the monkey mind doesn't exist...the spiritually evolved person sees the Tao in all of his/her day to day actions...the passing of one's credit card to the gas station attendant is done with the grace of one who is an element of the Tao.

 

In this matter Winn is presenting foolishness. Based on his presentation, I must conclude that he's not accomplished the ego subjugation required to understand how spiritual evolution is achieved and how moving within the Tao is accomplished.

 

IMO.

 

Love.

 

xeno

Edited March 24, 2007 by xenolith

[Spectrum]

The cup is most proper for the water doesn't spill out as easily as it does from a bowl, spoon andoone's hand.

 

Word pass that Cup this way brah. We'll drink of the living waters in a pagoda on Dragon Tiger Mountain.

 

...

 

What I'm saying is that within subjugation of ego, one need not be concerned with dealing with the monkey mind, because in the accomplishment of the former the latter no longer exists.

 

Most practices have opening and closing sequences. A pupil dilates to let in the perfect amount of light.

 

Perhaps the brief moments that a novice or initiate spends opening, looking through, these windows and doorways into different states of mind, into different dimensions of being, only to be drawn away by "being concerned", about anything at all seems to be the practical part of the learning curve.

 

Thinking is the boombox that drowns out the pulsating gurgling babbling gushing roaring streams of consciousness. Thoughts are the clouds floating through your internal terrain. Breakthroughs result in continued progress through peak and trough. Knowing the path enables one to summit, some travelers will meet their demise, you can only bring yourself on your journey. When you return you are different then before. By passing the space between two points you are changed. The death of ego along the way is assumed for the most part, but its also often forgotten that this gateway experience of ego death turns many travelers away.

 

So the internal dialog must be quieted so what is actually going on can be observed, this is often a type hypnogogic state w/ a lot of potential for visualization, and which full day dreams can sometimes occur simply by "thinking" about something... these mental states seem easier to observe steadily upon waking in the morning, closely related to the wake/dream transition I suppose. If one finds themselves in this state without understanding the ramification of thought under the circumstance of egolessness; the experience may be unfortunately misinterpreted. In this example the monkey mind taking on different characteristics due to your perspective, (wake to sleep) thoughts in dreamtime turn monkeys into gorillas. Does the response to gorillas mirror your earlier responses to the little monkey while awake? Ultimately truths translate mediums. Embodiment Artforms take on deepened significance as a medium which the meditator functions within the psycho-physiological terrain of form and formlessness.

 

The result of ego subjugation is union with the Tao. Which allows movement within it.

...

When one moves within the Tao the monkey mind doesn't exist...the spiritually evolved person sees the Tao in all of his/her day to day actions...the passing of one's credit card to the gas station attendant is done with the grace of one who is an element of the Tao.

...

In this matter Winn is presenting foolishness. Based on his presentation, I must conclude that he's not accomplished the ego subjugation required to understand how spiritual evolution is achieved and how moving within the Tao is accomplished.

 

Breaking for a commercial...

[spyrelx]

What I'm saying is that within subjugation of ego, one need not be concerned with dealing with the monkey mind, because in the accomplishment of the former the latter no longer exists.

 

The result of ego subjugation is union with the Tao. Which allows movement within it.

 

When one moves within the Tao the monkey mind doesn't exist...the spiritually evolved person sees the Tao in all of his/her day to day actions...the passing of one's credit card to the gas station attendant is done with the grace of one who is an element of the Tao.

 

In this matter Winn is presenting foolishness. Based on his presentation, I must conclude that he's not accomplished the ego subjugation required to understand how spiritual evolution is achieved and how moving within the Tao is accomplished.

 

IMO.

 

Love.

 

xeno

 

You speak like a daoist immortal. So I can only conclude you either are a daoist immortal, or your just parroting things you've read or heard and, like Michael Winn, are just going by the very slight level of results that you've gotten from the particular practices and procedures that you've tried.

 

I don't have the experience to judge if you're right, and I suspect you don't have it either.

 

"Foolishness" is people taking dogmatic positions about stuff they know little about and can't really prove anyway. He's got a theory (which he can't prove), and you've got another one (which you can't either). I think it's fine to discuss how your theory is better. I don't know how subtle and not so subtle attacks on Winn validate your position.

[xenolith]

I'm speaking based on my experience spyrelx. I'm sorry if you're offended by my comments regarding Winn's hypothesis and what I think it indicates about Winn. I'll recuse myself from further discussion of this matter.

 

Love.

 

xeno

Edited March 25, 2007 by xenolith

[Spectrum]

I'm all for originality.

 

Spectrum

[fatherpaul]

forgive me

experience will not give up the truth of this matter.

[spyrelx]

I'm speaking based on my experience spyrelx. I'm sorry if you're offended by my comments regarding Winn's hypothesis and what I think it indicates about Winn. I'll recuse myself from further discussion of this matter.

Love.

xeno

 

 

Xeno, I've sent you a P.M.

[xenolith]

I find this internet custom so illogical...one cannot be unaware of the presence of a PM that has been sent to them. The notifying of it's presence in a thread is unnecessary.

 

Nonetheless, I'll conform in this instance...spyrelx, you have a PM.

 

fatherpaul,

 

All is forgiven and there is nothing to forgive. I encourage you to read and consider my signature in the context of your statement regarding experience and truth.

 

Love.

 

xeno

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[xenolith]

What does the Freudian concept of "ego" have to do with anything Taoist? And where is this ego that you claim to subjugate? Furthermore, what subjegates this imagined concept of ego, if not some sense of an "I"?

I ask because your post is based on binary western views of reality, that include freudian theory, logic and some modern new agey sounding stuff (like "spiritual evolution").

All concepts and modes of thinking that developed after and culturally seperate from the main ideas and practices that we categorize as Taoism. The formulation of Taoism was not founded in logic like everything we westerners say, think and do. Logic does not necessarily apply.

And it is also interesting that the first relatively minor and yet major step of real Taoist practice is to still the thoughts for a few hours per day.

 

My dear friend, we are all stuck with words in this format aren't we? When I write of ego subjugation (check your spelling of this word and of words in general) I'm referring to the process of stripping of the ego from the self. Understand that the self is that which is harmonious with the Tao and that the ego is that which is not.

 

Love.

 

xeno

[Uncle Fester]

.

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Yen Hui]

What does the Freudian concept of "ego" have to do with anything Taoist? And where is this ego that you claim

to subjugate? Furthermore, what subjegates this imagined concept of ego, if not some sense of an "I"?

 

 

THREE QUOTES FROM THE HUAI NAN MASTERS:-

 

01 - Clarity does not mean seeing others, just seeing oneself. Acuity does not mean hearing others, just

hearing oneself. Understanding does not mean knowing others, just knowing oneself. (Taoist Classics,

Vol. 1, p. 384)

 

02 - The vital spirit belongs to heaven; the physical body belongs to earth. When the vital spirit goes home,

and the physical body returns to its origin, where then is the self? (ibid, p. 381)

 

03 - When you penetrate psychology, you realize that habitual desires, likes and dislikes, are external. (ibid,

p. 375)