Michael Winn, Enlightenment, Monkey Mind

[Wayfarer64]

Darebak- You keep insisting that only the ancient teachings of Taoism are of any merit. This flies in the face of change being the only constant. This is so in physics as in Taoism. Why do you insist that only the ancient masters can be trusted as "pure"- I believe they would find your conceptualization of their teachings anethma to the contant of the teaching.

 

Going with the flow has many aspects-many get abused in western culture. But a reliance on ONLY ancient teachings-and in our case mostly translated works- is in essense the same as saying only those who believe in the resurection of Christ will not go to hell. It is ignorant in the extreme to stick to only your own conceptions as the only truth. Even if you are correct for yourself it can not possibly be the way for everyone. That is not the way of the way, which accepts all participation as part of the process...the values you are placing on these means to an end refutes the process inherent in evolution and regeneration-with change being the constant...

 

The way to finding one's own most enlightened intent and purpose can be pointed to by many sources, even yours or Seans or perhaps the inegmatic Father Paul... Being open minded still has a place in Taoism, I hope.

[thelerner]

I agree with Wayfarer, The old texts are important and informative, but not gospels. There is a liquidity and freedom to taoism that refuses the 'This is ..' and 'That is..'s' that the mind want to label.

 

I think there is more insight from the person who uses simple monosyllable words to explain something then from the person who pulls up a 400 year old quote (that learning is of value, but for me, less).

 

Michael

 

 

I think Darebak hits a neccessary(?) weakness in the HT system when he says the first and most important step in practice is to go a few hours a day with a quiet mind. Its hard to sell a book which says, Ch.1 quiet your mind for a minute, practice and come back in a week. Ch. 2. Quiet your mind for 5 minutes, come back in a month. Ch. 3...

 

Westerners wouldn't put up with it, so the books written for the masses don't get into it as seriously as they should. You do hear it when you see the teachers one on one.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Trunk]

specific paradigms with specific goals, with specific formulae or algorithms for reaching these goals.

..

Its just that I don't believe the true foundations and theories of Taoism have become known in the west yet.

..

The need for some people to play at being an authority based on a few incomplete scraps of translated info in the west combined with the pathology of mass consumerism, obscures the simple truth that we are missing the information on Taoism that we need to truly begin to understand and learn.

Well written!, good points.

[spyrelx]

[xenolith]

I'll recuse myself from further discussion of this matter.

 

Love.

 

xeno

[DentyDao]

Edited April 7, 2007 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

 

Yeah, you know what I mean.

Edited April 7, 2007 by seandenty

[spyrelx]

I'll recuse myself from further discussion of this matter.

Love.

xeno

 

 

Well, that's the second time you've done it. So, again, you're presence here consists of either making dogmatic statements or leaving in a huff when being asked to back them up. I suggest you use the time away to try to get your ego in check.

Love,

spyrelx

 

 

Oh, and Sean -- as always, I passively acknowledge your infallible wisdom.

yours in the tao,

Oprah

[DentyDao]

Oh, and Sean -- as always, I passively acknowledge your infallible wisdom.

yours in the tao,

Oprah

 

I know

[Eric23]

Seandenty, Darebak, Spyrelx:

 

When you guys refer to Traditional Taoist methods are you talking about alchemical processes/methodolgies or religious rituals? The reason I ask is that for the average westerner who has discovered the Tao Te Ching and finds the words resonating and profound, your views seem very discouraging.

 

I can certainly see how the alchemical practices of Taoism can be taken way out of contex and mis-represented to the western market. I can only imagine the vast majority of folks stumble into this looking for better sex or a more powerful punch. I don't think that the US and western Europe have a monopoly on the consumerism mentality either, just look at Japan or Hong Kong. Everybody, world wide is looking for the quick fix and really don't want to be bothered with the long, slow inner work. From my novice perspective, the basis of the inner work is quieting the mind, stillness and working with the breath. Basicly we're talking meditation. I would think that at this basic level of meditation, westerners can find something positive in their lives being taught by folks who may not have the credentials of the ancient masters. FatherPaul paraphrased a quote I heard attributed to LaoTzu, " At the center of your being you have the answer, you know who you are and what you want." To me this implies quieting the mind through stillness and letting real you who has been beaten up by the monkey mind/chatter telling him everything that is wrong emerge. Does one really have to travel to China or the Himalyas to find a teacher who can help a person find emptiness?

 

My experiences with religion have been so bad over my life, the description of Taoism as the non-religion religion appeals to me. I know some folks find comfort in a religious setting, and that's fine. I've read volumes about what translation of the Bible is the "true word of God", sounds like dega vu with the Taoist cannons. Same issues, same arguements. I'm sorry, but when someone starts telling me what morals I need to subscribe to, Eric checks out. The golden rule as always seemed like a pretty good barometer.

 

I hope you guys would agree that there is some merit in the contemplative aspects of Taoism (or neoTaoism) that seekers from all walks of life can find comfort.

[Yen Hui]

I hope you guys would agree that there is some merit in the contemplative aspects of Taoism (or neoTaoism)

that seekers from all walks of life can find comfort.

 

Nice post, Eric! It made a whole lot of good sense to me, seriously. Cheers ~ Yen

[DentyDao]

I hope you guys would agree that there is some merit in the contemplative aspects of Taoism (or neoTaoism) that seekers from all walks of life can find comfort.

 

I agree, it 's a good thing. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Spectrum]

D. All of the above.

[Wayfarer64]

Many Thanks Darebak-for that response. It is hard for any of us to know what is in the mind of others, much less the ancient mystic masters we hope to glean some knowledge from. We often seem to have a hard time understanding one-another here, each using Emglish and somewhat on the same page most of the time. The transmission of insight and knowledge seems to be pretty haphazard all too often, so going to the source is always a logical and often the best way to begin. I just don't believe that it is the only way.

 

Most if not all of us have gotten up on our respective high-horses in the transmission of our beliefs and thoughts. We usually get called on it too. I understand yr outrage at our supposed claims of knowledge. We are being foolish to suppose any real knowledge of anything in this life, the complexities are much too vast.

 

This is also one reason why the unity of Taoism has such allure for many western seekers. It offers a middle way with ernest and forthright assurences of belonging without much dogma to contend with.

 

I agree with the idea that the real work is in deep introspection and in the stillness of meditation. The physical practices are needed to maintain the discipline required in a true and faithful questing. All aspects of our humantiy should be directed to the quest to make our own truths manifest. These truths may each be different for us at differing levels of insight and at different times of our lives.

 

But each of us may still have a singular way to be a Taoist, no matter what course we take. To loose ones' personality is not the goal, only to shape it to a better nature found within us, and not one that has its being and goals tied to the maya surrounding us.

 

I am sure there are many other paths to fullfillment than mine. I sure hope so. There is no reason for us each to follow on the same path.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[fatherpaul]

 

 

fatherpaul,

 

All is forgiven and there is nothing to forgive. I encourage you to read and consider my signature in the context of your statement regarding experience and truth.

 

Love.

 

xeno

"Suspend belief to discover new ones."

 

belief is doubt

[DentyDao]

To loose ones' personality is not the goal, only to shape it to a better nature found within us, and not one that has its being and goals tied to the maya surrounding us.

 

I would say, in losing your 'self' you find you true 'Self.'

[mYTHmAKER]

I would say, in losing your 'self' you find you true 'self.'

 

I would say there is no self to lose and no true self to find.

You cannot attain what you already have. So there

[Wayfarer64]

I would say there is no self to lose and no true self to find.

You cannot attain what you already have. So there

 

I wouldn't say that....But you can't lose what ya never had-Mick Jagger said that.

 

I can only speak for myself and if that self is or isn't here or there depending on who is aware of me, and how aware of myself I am and what level of my own consciousness is aware of another level of my consciousness,,, well then: ... I am being observed in the quantum field again... stop watching me !!! I feel yr eyes! Let me be me in my own space/time continuum as The I that my own insipid desires to be the true representitive for myself...OOPS... I'm slipping out of reality... see ya 'round the cosmos.

[Spectrum]

Dude. It's tea time again. Wheres that honkey Aiwei? (big grin) He's getting good prices on Iron Goddess while the rest of us are talking hawking.

 

When's the regional taobums meets? I vote to host on the coast.

 

Spectrum

Edited April 8, 2007 by Spectrum

[spyrelx]

Seandenty, Darebak, Spyrelx:

 

When you guys refer to Traditional Taoist methods are you talking about alchemical processes/methodolgies or religious rituals? The reason I ask is that for the average westerner who has discovered the Tao Te Ching and finds the words resonating and profound, your views seem very discouraging.

 

I can certainly see how the alchemical practices of Taoism can be taken way out of contex and mis-represented to the western market. I can only imagine the vast majority of folks stumble into this looking for better sex or a more powerful punch. I don't think that the US and western Europe have a monopoly on the consumerism mentality either, just look at Japan or Hong Kong. Everybody, world wide is looking for the quick fix and really don't want to be bothered with the long, slow inner work. From my novice perspective, the basis of the inner work is quieting the mind, stillness and working with the breath. Basicly we're talking meditation. I would think that at this basic level of meditation, westerners can find something positive in their lives being taught by folks who may not have the credentials of the ancient masters. FatherPaul paraphrased a quote I heard attributed to LaoTzu, " At the center of your being you have the answer, you know who you are and what you want." To me this implies quieting the mind through stillness and letting real you who has been beaten up by the monkey mind/chatter telling him everything that is wrong emerge. Does one really have to travel to China or the Himalyas to find a teacher who can help a person find emptiness?

 

My experiences with religion have been so bad over my life, the description of Taoism as the non-religion religion appeals to me. I know some folks find comfort in a religious setting, and that's fine. I've read volumes about what translation of the Bible is the "true word of God", sounds like dega vu with the Taoist cannons. Same issues, same arguements. I'm sorry, but when someone starts telling me what morals I need to subscribe to, Eric checks out. The golden rule as always seemed like a pretty good barometer.

 

I hope you guys would agree that there is some merit in the contemplative aspects of Taoism (or neoTaoism) that seekers from all walks of life can find comfort.

 

Eric,

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said and I'm sorry if I've given you the impression otherwise.

 

I don't know anything about religious taoism. When I talk of traditional taoism (which I don't remember doing on this thread) I'm generally talking about alchemical or health practices from established lineages and written canonical texts.

 

Just so we're clear, I DON'T believe one can only grow spiritually by learning from some 80 year old guy in china. One of the reasons I started this thread was to post words from a guy who in my opinion doesn't really have much in the way of credentials (despite what his website says) and might not be all that far along the path (despite what he believes).

 

I also don't think one needs to be following a regimented 1000 year old system in order to progress along a spiritual path. I think spiritual growth happens in all sort of ways through all sorts of paths -- whether "traditional" or newly invented. Indeed one could argue (as Winn and others do) that the ONLY way to make a 1000 year old system work for a 21st century urban dweller is to radically alter it, perhaps even weaving in technology, psychotherapy, and chemical supplements.

 

For my own growth, I generally prefer exploring established systems and lineages. I feel more secure that at least the system has worked for someone over time. But without question a practitioner of any system or non-system can benefit from quiet contemplation.

 

Hope that clears that up.

[Spectrum]

I DON'T believe one can only grow spiritually by learning from some 80 year old guy in china.

 

Could be a 5 year old you learn something from... could be anyone in the right context.

 

Indeed one could argue (as Winn and others do) that the ONLY way to make a 1000 year old system work for a 21st century urban dweller is to radically alter it, perhaps even weaving in technology, psychotherapy, and chemical supplements.

 

Sounds like something said about people practicing w/ a lot on their minds. Sensory Isolation chambers, bi naural technology and supplements can aid, but the metropolis field of energy at 60hz is something to look for a window facing away from.

 

Without a doubt I endorse practicing in natural environments, outside "the grid"... Good old fashion fresh air and mountain streams clean the senses and calm the "monkey"... when the body is functioning properly the mind is calm. Of coarse a walk is nice, a park is a great place, a stream offers conversation, I just think on some routine level one should gradually expand their practice to include meditative isolations in natural settings...

Edited April 8, 2007 by Spectrum

[forestofsouls]

 

I also don't think one needs to be following a regimented 1000 year old system in order to progress along a spiritual path. I think spiritual growth happens in all sort of ways through all sorts of paths -- whether "traditional" or newly invented. Indeed one could argue (as Winn and others do) that the ONLY way to make a 1000 year old system work for a 21st century urban dweller is to radically alter it, perhaps even weaving in technology, psychotherapy, and chemical supplements.

 

For my own growth, I generally prefer exploring established systems and lineages. I feel more secure that at least the system has worked for someone over time. But without question a practitioner of any system or non-system can benefit from quiet contemplation.

 

I think one would get a lot further with a system that has been proven over several millenniums rather than with inventing one's own system based on a single lifetime of experience*.

 

My trouble with the modern view is the cafeteria approach: a practitioner picks and chooses what one likes and discards what one doesn't. It is hard to develop mental concentration and deal with internal states such as boredom, minor physical pain, and the desire to move about. The trouble with the spiritual path is that it is sometimes painful, but with purpose. It's simply too easy to cut out the hard parts and imagine that one can obtain anything without hard work.

 

 

*: Buddha didn't have a lineage, but he mastered the one's that existed BEFORE declaring them unfit.

[DentyDao]

I think one would get a lot further with a system that has been proven over several millenniums rather than with inventing one's own system based on a single lifetime of experience*.

 

*: Buddha didn't have a lineage, but he mastered the one's that existed BEFORE declaring them unfit.

 

It boggles my mind how people seem to miss this common sensical point. It's like insisting that your little red wagon you screwed togther in your garage is going to be just as fast as the guy with Ferrari. "Hey man, check out my fucking wagon. It's a time machine."

 

Careful, if you keep this delusional fantasy going you could end up like this guy:

 

http://revision3.com/webdrifter/foreveryoung

 

Make sure you watch the whole interview, closely.

[Yen Hui]

http://revision3.com/webdrifter/foreveryoung

 

I don't know, but that was a darn funny clip!