Michael Winn, Enlightenment, Monkey Mind

[Wayfarer64]

Seriously this time-

It seems we are addressing two seperate ways of seeking that may each lead to the same realm of consciousness and may actually need each other to get there.

 

One being open-mindedness - so that the new and the awakening aspects of growth will not be missed... The other being accepting the tried and trued path of proven attainments, so that we do not waste time on the tried and shown to be untrue, (in the main)...

 

Each of these paths may indeed prove fruitless to any one of us - if taken to the extreme. So again I would seek the middle way using both elements of path-finding to further my growth.

 

Sean D. makes a very good point in that the Buddha - who indeed was an inovator and a finder of a new and valuable path; did start with the known techniques of his day and place- and stayed with them for a very long time. These surely aided his awakening, and allowed his own open-mindedness to stir him to allow his imagination full bloom... Giving the world a fresh approach to spiritual questing.

 

Jesus had Buddha's teachings to build on - each prophet has used the past to gain a foot-hold on a greater reality and then to create a new way to see ahead for his followers.

 

I for one, do not hold with the notion that the newest prophet is the best nor truest prophet, as is held in Islam of Mohammed... (For one thing- there is now the Bahai to further our human growth beyond the narrower approach of say the Wahabbis)...The notion of "best" just doesn't work in these matters it is a process that may use many aspects to attainment and it will- by nessecity- be unique to each of us.

 

So in my final take on this I will not claim any right way nor wrong path for anyone to explore. But I will say keep an open mind no matter which path you choose- or you may miss clues to your own awakening.

[Spectrum]

Sho 'nuff we didn't invent anything. It's all been done before. Pass the pot of Iron Goddess.

[spyrelx]

http://revision3.com/webdrifter/foreveryoung

Make sure you watch the whole interview, closely.

 

Confirms my view of most of these things you see on the web. I always suspected Dr Lin would look a lot like that if you went for a visit.

[Pero]

Oh come on... Is that for real? Was that really Alex Chiu or just some actor? It looked fake to me...

[spyrelx]

Oh come on... Is that for real? Was that really Alex Chiu or just some actor? It looked fake to me...

 

I don't know if it was fake or not -- but this shows how tenuous anybody's ability to see the truth is.

 

Think about it, we're no longer debating whether the guy who sells magnetic rings to make you immortal is a looney charlatan, we're now debating whether the guy EXPOSING the looney charletan was misleading in his expose.

 

Actually, come to think of it Pero, who exactly are you? I find it rather strange that some supposed guy named "Pero" would just pop up all of a sudden on this thread just when the Tao Bums were getting to the bottom of this immortality thing. Perhaps you're working for this Chiu guy . . . OR . . . perhaps you're working for the guy that did the video, and you're just throwing out this -- obviously fake --- criticism to make us embrace the video even more.

 

Whatever you're plan, know this: we're on to you.

[林愛偉]

Hi There,

 

Sorry about my disappearance for abit...I wasn't ignoring anyone actually.

I just haven't been following the thread.. he he he I have read a few posts about me.. haha honkey???

Funny

 

I haven't referenced anything in my posts though

 

Have fun.. this thread has become a replaying movie...

 

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

 

Dude. It's tea time again. Wheres that honkey Aiwei? (big grin) He's getting good prices on Iron Goddess while the rest of us are talking hawking.

 

When's the regional taobums meets? I vote to host on the coast.

 

Spectrum

 

 

haha what do you mean? Iron Goddess... ? Whats that..

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited April 9, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Pero]

I don't know if it was fake or not -- but this shows how tenuous anybody's ability to see the truth is.

 

Think about it, we're no longer debating whether the guy who sells magnetic rings to make you immortal is a looney charlatan, we're now debating whether the guy EXPOSING the looney charletan was misleading in his expose.

 

Actually, come to think of it Pero, who exactly are you? I find it rather strange that some supposed guy named "Pero" would just pop up all of a sudden on this thread just when the Tao Bums were getting to the bottom of this immortality thing. Perhaps you're working for this Chiu guy . . . OR . . . perhaps you're working for the guy that did the video, and you're just throwing out this -- obviously fake --- criticism to make us embrace the video even more.

 

Whatever you're plan, know this: we're on to you.

 

Lmao...

Thanks for the laugh.

As for who am I... In what context do you mean? Because you see, I`m not really sure who I am... There might be no "I"... In which case, there is nothing you can be on to.

Do you know who you are?

 

Anyway, the video just looks unreal to me... I don`t think a real Chiu would say something like "Girls think I`m a loser" (or was it just I`m a loser?). And that he`s afraid of death? Singing karaoke? Being videotaped running in that way with the music?

Whether Chiu`s a charlatan... Probably, but I can`t really know. Personally I don`t believe his rings for immortality work... Obviously, if the real Chiu is on the video, he`s a fake, hard to argue against that. I mean, if his rings give immortality, why isn`t he wearing them?

He has an I Ching site, which looks pretty interesting, has anyone checked that out?

[Pero]

Ok... So it says it`s him on wikipedia (not that wikipedia can`t be wrong or something....). And what he actually said was "I am a loser, girls don't like me...it doesn't help [that] girls keep on thinking you're Frankenstein, because, you know, you think you can make people live forever.".

So if that`s him, he`s pretty stupid for a supposed genius. I mean, what kind of picture of him does that video give out? I doubt it helps his bussines. Though some say any kind of publicity is good publicity...

And if he does have 3 milion dollars worth of real estate, why is he in that appartment... He could at least afford a maid or something...

 

Oh and it looks like he connected the I ching with Jewish teachings....

 

Ah well...

[spyrelx]

[Wayfarer64]

Where's Frodo Baggins when ya need him? He'd know what to do with such rings, and Samwise Gangi could assist as per usual...Gandolf will not be part of this expedition he is much too busy seeking a monkey to de-brain...But Gollum will be resurected as a crispy critter (and much reformed) to guide our intrepid questers to lala land....

 

I give this guy the NO SOAP award for sillyness personified...

 

(Now get me one of those damn rings ASAP, I want to be silly too!)

[Pero]

[spyrelx]

A fool on a journey I am though, no doubt.

 

 

No doubt. And I as well, Peter, I as well . . .

 

Thanks for your postings.

[hagar]

I can't help coming out of the closet, and reveal my true identity as a sucker, so here goes...

 

I've worn Alex's rings for a couple of years on and off. Why? Curiosity I guess, but most importantly, I am a firm believer in the placebo effect. As such, the effect of the rings are hard to pin down, and there may absolutely be nothing whatsoever about them except for the tingling I get in my pinkies when I put them on.

But they do have an effect. Mostly related to sleep. I tend to have deeper sleep when I have them on, although in the beginning, I tended to get heart palpitations. Later, I feel very little, but always sleep better. My explanation is that eventhough Alex is more than a little nerdy and insecure, he actually stumbled across something.

 

We all know that there is some validity to magnet therapy, but by accident he found a way to harness the effects of the polarities of the magnets with the meridians. The pinkie finger is associated with the heart, and I do feel that it affects the heart and sleep. And I got them sent from Alex' site for free, so no money was wasted.But the effect can't compare with a good session of qigong or meditation, and probably does not work very well alone. But are they immortality rings? Noop.

 

I found the video hilarious btw.

 

 

 

h

[thelerner]

In many ways a good charlatan is better then a great enlightened teacher. First they often communicate better and on your level. Two, while they a charlatan may be expensive, a great enlightened teacher might have you chuck all of your stuff or at least make you feel its meaningless.

 

Three a skilled Charlatan is grounded in new age, pop psychology and a smattering of old world traditions vs the enlightened teacher who only knows a single traditions. So the Charlatan will (often) immediately have you feeling good, whereas an enlightened teacher should have you immediately feeling bad (ie. not only do you 'know' nothing, the 'you' is really not you and is not good at all).

 

Four, the methods of the Charlatan can actually work very very well. Plus they change there methods so often that they are bound to connect w/ a huge mass of people. Also I find any practice done sincerely and long enough can have a profound effect on the person who does it.

 

The ultimate Charlatan was Osho(Castaneda a close second). He wrote a huge number of books on every possible new age subject. All the books were good though many contained contradictory information. He was well loved though rumored to abuse and sometimes kill wayward believers. People in his presence reported he clearly had "Something..It..Juice" but he was also addicted to drugs and suffered a variety of ailments psychological and otherwise. Most who learned from him and his books swore by them and there were many who would later swear at him.

 

As easy a target as he was, beware. Was the founder of your system a Charlatan(Moses, Christ, Buddha)? Hard to say, we didn't learn at their knee. Even if we did its hard to escape a high energy persons charisma. Success turns Charlatans into ..?.. messiahs?

 

 

Michael

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[DentyDao]

Well you've exposed a major issue here.

Is my intent to feel good?

If that is the case, lots of things can work there. I can get blissed out from lots of things like hot sex, a good tai chi session on a lovely day, a couple of percocet and so on...

A healthy dose of psilocybin mushrooms will give me a nice little Shamanic journey albeit the tourist version.

 

But if my intent is to transcend Karma, merge with the original consciousness, further delve into Taoist practices I can't even conceive of at this point...well then Osho, Castaneda, Winn, Ni...none of these guys are qualified to teach me these things.

 

Yep, I think we, in the west (or people in general for that matter), tend to associate 'feeling good' with being 'spiritual' on an uncouncious level. Obviously this is completely flawed as we often crave and get great pleasure from things that hurt us. Most of us are like the lab rat that keeps pressing the button for more and more cocain until it kills itself. The smart ones know they are killing themselves and wasting their lives, but most of us are unconcious.

 

That's why the Taoists emphasize Virtue, always correct; which has nothing to do with 'getting off.' Spiritual practice can be a drug just like anything else; especially if we throw sex onto the fire. Some of course need to live in a fantasy; it becomes a way to self medicate the broken heart of the modern age. Of course, it's human to want to feel pleasure, in moderation and naturally without becoming self destructive or deluded.

[sharp-nose]

i think the only thing that prevents us form learning form any master or so called master is shear arrogance

 

 

this stinks, me thinks

[fatherpaul]

i think the only thing that prevents us form learning form any master or so called master is shear arrogance

this stinks, me thinks

 

but if you are your own master and own student?

[Yoda]

I equate feeling good with oneness with God/Tao/etc. What's the point of spiritual growth if it feels bad? Imo, spiritual development is about learning to feel ecstatically nice independent of external, impermanent situations.

 

The only two sources of knowledge are our feelings and the guidance of others. If we divorce our spiritual quest from feeling good, then we fall prey to relying overly on the guidance of others. Even if that person is as well meaning as your own mother and is very enlightened, it still can be problematic.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[fatherpaul]

i'm sorry, but what the fuck does the chattering mind have to do with anything, let alone taoism???

[thelerner]

"i'm sorry, but what the fuck does the chattering mind have to do with anything, let alone taoism???"

 

I'd say it has to do w/ everything. IMHO a chattering mind is impediment #1. It splits our attention, destroys concentration, pulls us directions we don't want to go.

 

 

Dareback poses an important question. In the midst of void is there bliss? I don't know. Peace certainly, a feeling of everything is fine, nothing is needed. That's what I feel when I'm deep into emptiness meditation. Never had bliss or satori, not yet. It may not be my way.

 

A few here have experienced B & S. From what they've told me its temporary, but its echoes inform there lives.

 

 

Michael

[DentyDao]

I equate feeling good with oneness with God/Tao/etc. What's the point of spiritual growth if it feels bad? Imo, spiritual development is about learning to feel ecstatically nice independent of external, impermanent situations.

 

Sometimes growth is painful. Whether something feels good or bad doesn't necessarily mean it is. For example, psycologists tell us that the personal satisfaction gained from revenge killing is one of the greatest highs and self esteme builders for the killer. But does it contribute to his personal growth?

 

The idea of virtue is that it's about doing the right/correct thing, not just what feels good. It feels great to sit on the couch all day and drink beer while watching tv, but it's not really spiritual.

 

The only two sources of knowledge are our feelings and the guidance of others. If we divorce our spiritual quest from feeling good, then we fall prey to relying overly on the guidance of others. Even if that person is as well meaning as your own mother and is very enlightened, it still can be problematic.

 

I would say it's about what is going to give us lasting happiness, not about 'feeling' good; again the two don't always go together. It's important to find a good teacher who has both compassion and true knowledge. A good teacher gives you a third source of knowledge called experience. Once you have your own authentic experiences, the rest doesn't really matter.

 

In the end we just need to trust what we are doing and have faith by following our hearts, it's true. But there are things we can do to skillfully clear our doubt and test our beliefs and these are important steps to take.

 

S

[Eric23]

The idea of virtue is that it's about doing the right/correct thing, not just what feels good. It feels great to sit on the couch all day and drink beer while watching tv, but it's not really spiritual.

 

 

My understanding from Alan Watts' Watercourse Way is that virtue in the Taoist sense is from the origional meaning of the word. That is , virtue is "the active power accomplish a given effect" (Webster's). You seem to be using the meaning that equates virtue with morality. Watts' take is that because we are human there is within us the virtue of human which operates according to the Tao. The realities of life, our shortcomings, including monkey mind/chatter all get in the way of letting our human nature function as it should. Therefore by seeking to understand Tao, and get out of it's way, we begin to increase our virtue as humans. That is to say, we begin to function using more of the active power. Watts comes from the contemplative perspective and never really talked about the alchemical aspect in any great detail other than to mention it wasn't in the scope of his book. However I can see how virtue (the active power) could encompass the alchemical practices.

[fatherpaul]

My understanding from Alan Watts' Watercourse Way is that virtue in the Taoist sense is from the origional meaning of the word. That is , virtue is "the active power accomplish a given effect" (Webster's). You seem to be using the meaning that equates virtue with morality. Watts' take is that because we are human there is within us the virtue of human which operates according to the Tao. The realities of life, our shortcomings, including monkey mind/chatter all get in the way of letting our human nature function as it should. Therefore by seeking to understand Tao, and get out of it's way, we begin to increase our virtue as humans. That is to say, we begin to function using more of the active power. Watts comes from the contemplative perspective and never really talked about the alchemical aspect in any great detail other than to mention it wasn't in the scope of his book. However I can see how virtue (the active power) could encompass the alchemical practices.

 

 

now this makes sense

the human being is the human being

it is a very natural thing

this monkey mind business is bullcrap

believe it if you want