Michael Winn, Enlightenment, Monkey Mind

[thelerner]

Denty, you spent last night going over my old posts and personal forum thread looking for ammunition and then say I lead a boring life. Man.

 

This diversion started because someone had a minor disagreement with you and called them a geek and said they should get balls. They weren't attacking you, they just disagreed. You try to win the argument(that doesn't exist) with school yard intimidations of calling names and getting personal. That is your pattern and its a bad one.

 

The point, the heart of this site is communication. Being right is secondary, we're here to learn and connect. Thats why I like Live Chat so much, its pretty unique to this site. To be communicating live with someone in North Carolina, Arizona and China at the same time still blows my mind.

 

If memory serves me right, here is where come in with a passive aggressive reply of how sorry you are for me..yada yada yada yada.

 

 

 

Michael

[Spectrum]

Patterns repeat themselves.

 

"From the pine tree

Learn of the pine tree.

And from the bamboo

of the bamboo."

- Basho

Edited April 14, 2007 by Spectrum

[sharp-nose]

At least two people came to their senses.

Thats a big plus.

Thank you

Sean, what you just said confirmed my-our suspicions.

Get well man.

 

One more thing I remembered.

There was a sage that said something I will remember as long as I live.

He said that:

 

 

Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity, you must lend a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path, and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it, if that is what your heart tells you to do. But, your decision to keep on the path or leave it must be free of fear or ambition.

 

I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself and yourself alone, one question. The question is one that only a very old man asks. My benefactor told me about it once when I was young, and my blood was too vigorous for me to understand. Now I do understand it. l will tell you what it is.

 

Does this path have a heart?

 

All paths are the same; they lead nowhere. In my own life, Icould say I traversed long paths, butI am not anywhere. My benefactor's question has meaning now. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't, it is of no use.

 

Both paths lead nowhere but one has heart, the other doesn't. One makes for a joyful journey, as long as you follow it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong, the other weakens you.

 

The trouble is nobody asks the question and when a man finally realizes that he has taken a path without a heart, the path is ready to kill him. At that point, few men can stop to deliberate, and leave the path.

 

A path without heart is never enjoyable. You have to work hard to even take it. On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it.

 

For me there is only the traversing of paths that have heart, on any path that may have a heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length.

 

And there I travel looking.............looking breathlessly.

[DentyDao]

If memory serves me right, here is where come in with a passive aggressive reply of how sorry you are for me..yada yada yada yada.

Michael

 

Hi Michael, I think you are a nice guy. My 'flame' was intended as humor to get you off your soap box and make you laugh a little. Sadly your mellow drama continues and this about what a big gerk I am because I Rude to some guy on the internet who basically comes out of nowhere saying I am a heartless power hungry asshole. Then, when I come back and say, " no, your wrong and this is why.' You show up with the same old line about how uncalled for me reponses are.

 

Isn't this really about the fact that I have been critical of someone you respect? I have told the truth about Michale Winn and it rubbed you the wrong way didn't it; because you have looked up to him and incorperated his teachings into your daily life, and now, when I expose some unwholesome experiences I had with him, you go on the defensive. Is it because you would rather try to find something wrong with me as a person than accept that Michael Winn is dishonest?

[DentyDao]

I guess I will just have to keep you in the ignore section of cyberspace ala DaBums...Since I put you there I have had a much more pleasent experience here.

But you alway do take me off you ignor list Pat? Make up your mind.

[DentyDao]

[Wayfarer64]

But you alway do take me off you ignor list Pat? Make up your mind.

 

Sean, why keep this going?

You have remained on my ignore list since I discovered the option, and I am usually happy to have it available, even though you are the only name that I have ever put on there.

 

The function does not work unless one is logged in as a member of the TaoBums. I often come to this site to read without logging on or making any entries, therefore I am subjected to your BS as well as able to read any tid-bits of knowledge you may impart to us...

 

I made my mind up about you long ago Sean. Your emotionalism makes you untrustworthy. I would rather not have to deal with your BS, even though you seem to be well-read and knowledgible, you display no sagasity or self-control...

 

I have no ill feelings toward you Sean, except a mild annoyance from time to time when I am prompted to respond to some sillyness from you. I trust you will grow out of this phase, I hope so, you have too good a mind to waste in emotionalism.

 

Still all of this is of no real importance -save how it disaffects the site. So let us go back to not addressing each other - if you please, unless it pertains directly to the subject matter of the threads.

I have no horse in this race vis-a-vis Mr. Winn. It is too bad that anyone has given you cause to be so upset, much less someone that you sought out as a teacher. But you may still be able to transcend the hurtfulness with some discipline on yr emotions. Venting and warning of dangers to others are both cool with most of us here.

 

But your claiming once sincerity and then attempted humor as to yr reasons for flying-off the way you did here is disconcerting. Making-up one's mind is a funny expression...Does it conotate one's fantasy or solidity of purpose? Making up one's mind...??? Just who makes yours up for you? Do we need make-up artists to do our minds like some women's faces are done?Are these our Gurus? Is there a make-up test available if we miss the boat on the first take?

Can't we just shake hands and make-up, before we part once again into our respective corners?

[sharp-nose]

you missed, by much, and btw, i dont have the heart to be that mean to a person.

i dont know you personally, and you dont know me.

i just followed the messages on this board, and your own private, of your actual teacher.

i am interested in the system david teaches - which by the way is not his own property.

btw, my menthor has video training stuff with david, david isnt even aware off...

were just checking out guys who spent some time with chia, so you can see what our set of values could be.

and im sure chia and winn woundnt mind if i swear at him, but done the right thing.

 

the five god theory... take it just as metaphor.

 

i dont know who you fight with, but relax now. im not trying to hurt you in any way.

forgive me for any harm done.

but all i said stands.

someday you will understand. and if you dont, your friends will.

an example, for good or for bad, is always welcomed.

 

truely, thank you.

 

Sharpie

Edited April 14, 2007 by sharp-nose

[DentyDao]

[Smile]

Wow, so much about what Sean is/isn't... Isn't it a Winn's thread? I agree with what Sean has experienced when dealing with Winn- I also heard stories from Winn himself that were later changed over the years to play into "lineage" thing. If anything, everyone should be grateful to Sean for telling about his experiences so they don't buy into HT BS too much. It's one thing to learn from books and tapes and another to learn live and spend time with the teacher and his students. Sometimes, it's not even close to the picture publicly painted.

 

We can talk about why Winn is getting blind or why Chia keeps stealing info from other masters to use in his books, but then some would say it's a character assassination. After all, for some the truth should be always painted in pink with flowers and cute bunnies. On that note...

[DentyDao]

you missed, by much, and btw, i dont have the heart to be that mean to a person.

i dont know you personally, and you dont know me.

 

I haven't seen you be anything but insulting.

 

i just followed the messages on this board, and your own private, of your actual teacher.

i am interested in the system david teaches - which by the way is not his own property.

 

Actually, his teaching is his responsability because he is authorized as a direct lineage holder of the methods he teaches. I'm starting to get a clearer picture of who you are.

 

btw, my menthor has video training stuff with david, david isnt even aware off...

were just checking out guys who spent some time with chia, so you can see what our set of values could be.

and im sure chia and winn woundnt mind if i swear at him, but done the right thing.

 

What's this? You are living up to all my intuitions about you. So what? you have a pirited video of my teacher; probably more of the stuff that Chia tried to steal from David and publish without permission. Good thing it's all useless demos you fuck wit.

 

the five god theory... take it just as metaphor.

I prefer to take it as more bullshit from a crazy person which you clearly are.

 

i dont know who you fight with, but relax now. im not trying to hurt you in any way.

forgive me for any harm done.

but all i said stands.

someday you will understand. and if you dont, your friends will.

an example, for good or for bad, is always welcomed.

You don't want to fight? Hmmm... isn't that exactly what you want? You coward!!! What's your real indentity Hmmm... Your not from Poland, your one of he few true crazy Mofo's who has been emailing me and harrassing my fellow students from day one aren't you??? I could be wrong, but I smell a rat.

 

truely, thank you.

 

Sharpie

 

Oh no, thank you Sharpie. You have made me realize that I need to very careful who I give information to. You are nothing but a wanna be. I've seen it soooo many times. It's really old hat.

 

Peace, S

 

 

 

To Pat G.

 

Sean, why keep this going?

 

No, your right, I don't. I think if you were in my shoes you might understand my position a little more clearly. Forgive me for being suspisicious of you. After the last exchange, I now am 99% sure who Sharpnose really is. An old wacko from years ago. But, given our history I suspected it might be you. Sorry to drag you into it; we made are piece and let's keep it that way.

 

Good luck on your journey to China.

Edited April 14, 2007 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

Wow, so much about what Sean is/isn't... Isn't it a Winn's thread? I agree with what Sean has experienced when dealing with Winn- I also heard stories from Winn himself that were later changed over the years to play into "lineage" thing. If anything, everyone should be grateful to Sean for telling about his experiences so they don't buy into HT BS too much. It's one thing to learn from books and tapes and another to learn live and spend time with the teacher and his students. Sometimes, it's not even close to the picture publicly painted.

 

We can talk about why Winn is getting blind or why Chia keeps stealing info from other masters to use in his books, but then some would say it's a character assassination. After all, for some the truth should be always painted in pink with flowers and cute bunnies. On that note...

 

 

Thank you. I'm not looking for allies, but Max has a history with HT and it's why he understands my comments have real meaning.

 

I apologize if my criticism of the HT seems like an unwarrented 'attack.' If this is the case it is only due to my own lack in expressing myself clearly. I hold no ill will to anyone, but the truth is the truth and I will not hide what I know and bite my tongue.

 

As a service, to those who may be hurt by what I have shared. I will post a compiled list of teachers who I feel are genuine. My personal research extends much further then David Shen and people here might benifit from my opinions on the matter. Even if, in the grand scheme, what I know is very limited, I have spent time with people who have devoted their lives to finding authentic teachers. I will dig up my notes and and post some reflections this Summer.

 

Yours, S

[sharp-nose]

i dont know if im to laugh or to cry. you are way... way... off track.

and the thing you seem to fail to realise is that you are a good portrait of what your school and teacher is.

take it anyway you like it. i saw simmilar things with davids posts. he is just a little more of a diplomat.

if you consider to be on topic mile long messages praising your teacher... well, so be it.

i was curious, how come when someone (other than me!!!) tries to defend winn, chia and others, suddently they are called names and even considered duped and brainwashed, and when you try to defend your teacher, its normal and legitimate.

 

i dont know who is harrasing you, and i feel sorry for anyone who passes through such incidents.

but i think i can shade some light on what kind of people do this, and on what purpose.

 

my menthor says power is like money. you may have it, work for it, but is still not enough. you need to know how to invest it, to make it work for you and for others, to help you in your wordly things, and make your life maybe a little bit easier.

 

the guys hunting you, and shen, and andreas, and kosta, and chang, are power-avid people.

this happens the same with people who work for a lot of money, they are always stalked by this kind of characters.

 

there are a lot of them on the proboard forum as well, their cunningness is so transparent. maybe you didnt noticed them, but im sure david did.

 

i never understood why the great masters choose not to show any special powers. from what i gathered until now, i think i understand why. just look at the kind of students this line of teaching attracts.

im not envious on david, i sure am very curious on how will he handle such students. and how and by what means does he espect them to improve.

 

these are personal concerns, because, as i said, i am studying your school. as i study winn-s, and chia-s, and andreas-s... and many others i cannot talk about.

 

as for winn, he is not very good, and not verry bad.

all i have to say is that his place should be at chia-s side.

maybe these words will offend him, i dont know.

but i think they need each other.

so maybe a miracle will happen, at the last moment, just before chia will retire for the immortal practices.

he is turning 65...

i understand why chia didnt go too much into the much higher spiritual practice, and i can appreciate what he is doing, even though maybe i would have done it a little different.

 

for seans information, and others too, i do have a practice, and a training schedule.

and i consider working inside a school a prolific way to grow up, that teaches you how to cope with the light and dark sides of being a human being. not too much and not verry little.

and paths are only paths. all that matters for me is if my paths has a heart for me.

and it does.

 

 

Sharpie

[thelerner]

You totally don't get it. Third time, my criticism of your writing has nothing to do w/ what you think of Winn. Its about your childish attacks on any one who disagrees with you. I keep repeating the same thing to you. Its not about political correctness or mindless agreement or ganging up on.

 

If you think Winn or the HT is dangerous you have every right to say so. This site was made to get away from HT control, but almost every thread you're on ends with you making personal attacks on other people. Its something you should work on.

 

One of the things Sean the Sysop has done is create an exceptional well run site w/ a wide spread interesting group of people. He does ask us to be respectful to each other.

 

 

Michael

[DentyDao]

Third time, my criticism of your writing has nothing to do w/ what you think of Winn. Its about your childish attacks on any one who disagrees with you. I keep repeating the same thing to you. Its not about political correctness or mindless agreement or ganging up on.

 

Sharpnose questioned my character, motives and heart. From what? and why? I responded to his silly post with an equaly silly post.

 

If you think Winn or the HT is dangerous you have every right to say so. This site was made to get away from HT control, but almost every thread you're on ends with you making personal attacks on other people.

I'm not really interested in making internet buddies. I respect your sensativity, but I have a right to respond to people in kind when they call me a liar and engage in pointless personal attacks. I have had plenty of respectful and meaningful exchanges here. Your lack of ability to see this is your problem.

 

One of the things Sean the Sysop has done is create an exceptional well run site w/ a wide spread interesting group of people. He does ask us to be respectful to each other.

Michael

 

I think I have done that here. If you disagree show something more convincing than accusations. Let's see some balanced examples of me being 'rude' when the other party didn't start attacking first? Look carefully at my posts and you will see people saying all kinds of rude imflamitory remarks, backed up with little or no real knowledge about me or what I'm saying.

 

Learner, I'm really sick and tired of your bullshit. Take off your rose colored glasses. What I have to say is challenging and contraversial, so naturally I will have critics. But when people just get pissed off and start making useless and unskillfull accusations I answer back; And I will NOT bow down to your distorted sensabilities nomatter what your personal opinion of me is.

 

Peace out, S

[DentyDao]

i was curious, how come when someone (other than me!!!) tries to defend winn, chia and others, suddently they are called names and even considered duped and brainwashed, and when you try to defend your teacher, its normal and legitimate.

 

They have been duped and some even brainwashed. Before you start making judgements about David, wouldn't it more rational to meet him or speak with him personally? Just a thought.

 

i dont know who is harrasing you, and i feel sorry for anyone who passes through such incidents.

but i think i can shade some light on what kind of people do this, and on what purpose.

 

They are sick. Plain and simple.

 

my menthor says power is like money. you may have it, work for it, but is still not enough. you need to know how to invest it, to make it work for you and for others, to help you in your wordly things, and make your life maybe a little bit easier.

 

the guys hunting you, and shen, and andreas, and kosta, and chang, are power-avid people.

this happens the same with people who work for a lot of money, they are always stalked by this kind of characters.

 

Interesting that you mention Andreas and Kostas and John Chang? Hmmm... There is one or two of these people on the proboard. Again, they are sick and need help. What they fail to understand in their desperation to be accepted, is that people would be happy to accept them if they just ask and be honest in the first place. And besides, no one has a monopoly on Taoism. Anyone with the heart and desire can find a good teacher. Some even teach for free.

 

there are a lot of them on the proboard forum as well, their cunningness is so transparent. maybe you didnt noticed them, but im sure david did.

 

Interesting that you noticed these people and I did not. Hmmm.... Maybe your good at spotting these kinds of people for a reason?

 

i never understood why the great masters choose not to show any special powers. from what i gathered until now, i think i understand why. just look at the kind of students this line of teaching attracts.

im not envious on david, i sure am very curious on how will he handle such students. and how and by what means does he espect them to improve.

 

Yeah, the sounds like more BS and right in line with what I would expect from you. The opposite is infact true. These kinds of dishonest people are not attracted to what David teaches. They lose interest when they realize it's NOT ABOUT POWER.

 

these are personal concerns, because, as i said, i am studying your school. as i study winn-s, and chia-s, and andreas-s... and many others i cannot talk about.

If you want to study a school, I would suggest SOME ACTUAL STUDY instead of making silly judgements over the internet.

 

as for winn, he is not very good, and not verry bad.

all i have to say is that his place should be at chia-s side.

maybe these words will offend him, i dont know.

My guess is you have never even met Michael Winn.

 

i understand why chia didnt go too much into the much higher spiritual practice, and i can appreciate what he is doing, even though maybe i would have done it a little different.

Fine, maybe you should have just made this your point instead of personally insulting me with you amature psycho analysis. Spare me.

 

for seans information, and others too, i do have a practice, and a training schedule.

and i consider working inside a school a prolific way to grow up, that teaches you how to cope with the light and dark sides of being a human being. not too much and not verry little.

and paths are only paths. all that matters for me is if my paths has a heart for me.

and it does.

Sharpie

 

I'm sure everyone here is delighted to hear all about what a great and humble student you are. Next time please leave me out of it.

[fatherpaul]

this parlay seems senseless

 

no one, and i mean no one can

give you understanding, enlightenment

or freedom from yourself

[dunbar]

That was a lot of text to read through. Some good points about michael winn sean thank for that very long but informative post. One thing - you might be totally justified to argue with people and I think you are - but i wouldnt even give it the time of day - just ignor them. In the end its better for your health. lol - I thought your other posts spoke for themselfs without alowing this guy to get to you.

 

jim

[Cameron]

I still say tennis is the answer. Remember, the civilized game of tennis allows for the wonderful doubles matchup. Smile and Sean D on one side and The Learner and sharpnose on the other. Everyone does their respective meditaitons beforehand to make sure those with the truest qi wins.

 

4 men enter...2 men leave winners...

[Smile]

Power is a natural outcome of any spiritual cultivation. Spiritual superpowers come hand in hand with correct practices- all it takes is to spend enough time doing it plus proper sexual conduct advised by your teacher. We talked about this before, I believe.

 

Cam: I still say tennis is the answer. Remember, the civilized game of tennis allows for the wonderful doubles matchup.

I prefer you talking about BJJ. Less gay.

[Cameron]

Power is a natural outcome of any spiritual cultivation. Spiritual superpowers come hand in hand with correct practices- all it takes is to spend enough time doing it plus proper sexual conduct advised by your teacher. We talked about this before, I believe.

 

I prefer you talking about BJJ. Less gay.

 

 

Raquetball then!

[DentyDao]

That was a lot of text to read through. Some good points about michael winn sean thank for that very long but informative post. One thing - you might be totally justified to argue with people and I think you are - but i wouldnt even give it the time of day - just ignor them. In the end its better for your health. lol - I thought your other posts spoke for themselfs without alowing this guy to get to you.

 

jim

 

No problem. Yeah, you are probably right. I'm more annoyed than anything, but there are much better ways to spend my free time; thanks for reminding me. I get all inspired to tell the 'truth' and then I realize I'm talking to some teenager from Poland? Like anybody really cares. Anyway, back to reality. I have said my peace and really have nothing further to add. People can make up their own minds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Raquetball then!

How about frisbee golf. Now there's a gay sport

[Cameron]

All right bowling but after that I am out of ideas .Or just settle it from the comfort of your own homes with some X Box live or something...

[voice]

This is a fascinating series of insights and exchanges, with much pain lurking and many truths shining.

 

My take is simple: Later Heaven (3D world) is unalterably divided. We cannot find common ground at this level. Personality differences, experiences, needs, goals etc. make it impossible for us to all get along.

 

At deeper levels we do connect, and that may be part of why we are all on this board together.

 

There is no solution through the war of words, as they are of Later Heaven. Whose teacher is best, whose teacher is most evil -- all these thought are true, but they can never be resolved.

 

When someone attacks me or lets me down (which must happen, as I have a Later Heaven life), as time goes on, I learn to fight or complain less and less. Instead, I connect with deeper dimensions of them, and I feel satisfied.

 

Chris

(disclaimer: I've been a student of Winn's for 9 years)

[dunbar]

(disclaimer: I've been a student of Winn's for 9 years)

 

It seems clear to me after reading here that winn is lost his mind. True i didn't like his course and there might be more to his story. He's not a teacher i would trust with my training from my view he is making a lot of his teacjhing up - that's just not right. I just don't see how sean is the one with issues - unless he is also telling lies and I don't get that from his writing. Maybe it is more simple than some later heaven story - maybe winn is just a dude who stole some teaching out of books and made a business. It seems clear that is how chia opperates - I say the fruit doesn't fall very far from the tree.

 

Jim