Michael Winn, Enlightenment, Monkey Mind

[spyrelx]

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

Spyrelx,

 

I just posted my note above and didn't see your letter. I really am sorry you were so offended. But as I said, my comments about the Learner where meant as a totally tongue and cheek ribbing. My 'flame' was so obviously 'over the top,' that I didn't think anyone here would take it seriously. I was simply trying to illustrate the absurdity of the whole affair. I'm not at all angry at anyone. I'm a pissed that someone, probably Sharp-nose, has been emailing me hate mail, but it's part of the deal; when you put yourself out there, some people are bound to be critical.

 

Just for the record, I'm not representing anyone. I'm human just like you and I'm certainly not a sage or some kind of Daoist Master. If people want to hold me up to 'higher standard' and single me out, there is really nothing I can do about it. I prefer to just be myself and let all my flaws and imperfections be expressed along with the good. I never dreamed that I would attract the kind of attention I sometimes do and quite frankly, it's not something I really care a whole lot about.

 

The fact that some people (you included) seem to want to address 'my' personal issues on a thread that has nothing to do with 'me' boggles my mind. Why would anyone care that much? Why are people judging a school that I have been a part of for less than a year based on my behavior? I'm just not willing to take these people too seriously.

 

Yes, I can be an asshole. Yes, I'm totally human and imperfect. But who are you to judge me. Are you saying there is no drama in your life?

 

I think we could all use a little lightening up, don't you.

 

Best, S

Edited April 16, 2007 by seandenty

[Spectrum]

Obviously... monkey mind is running rampant.

 

Isn't the speechlessness of afterglow grand?

 

Spectrum

 

Watch your thoughts; they become your words.

Watch your words; they become your actions.

Watch your actions; they become your habits.

Watch your habits; they become your character.

Watch your character for it will become your destiny.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[DentyDao]

Hey,

 

This is your chance to kick me while I'm down everyone. Come on you know you want to

Edited April 16, 2007 by seandenty

[Christoph]

"If people want to hold me up to 'higher standard' and single me out, there is really nothing I can do about it."

 

 

Ok I'll pile on...no one is holding you to a higher standard only the generally accepted standard of discourse on this message board. No one is singling you out...you do quite well enough with that one by yourself.

 

 

"I never dreamed that I would attract the kind of attention I sometimes do and quite frankly, it's not something I really care a whole lot about. "

 

IMO your posts are provocative (its why I am replying)

so why be surprised when attention is given.

[dunbar]

Hey,

 

This is your chance to kick me while I'm down everyone. Come on you know you want to

 

On the contrary - keep up the good work sean - thank you for sticking your neck out. The people who agree with you realize that taking sides is pretty self-serving. Your critics wouldn't be interested if they didn't envy you in some way and take my advice- ignor the people and do your thing.

 

keep your head up

 

Jim

[Wayfarer64]

Hey there Dunbar-

Welcome to the TaoBums.

You sure have jumped in with both feet on this. How do you know Denty, through Winn etc? It seems you also studied with Winn and had a poor experience. Thanks for the warning. I would never have looked him up anyway... still - what we don't know can't help us.

It seems sad to me that you would need to enter this thread when there are so many better ones going on.

Being hurt by a mentor or teacher is a bitter thing indeed, It is a shame to see the results here with so many so obviously distraught by the past they shared with Winn.

 

Chris- You seem to be rather well balanced for someone who has studied with Winn... the rest here seem distracted from reality & somehow imbittered...Why have you come out seemingly unscathed? Did you not take him/his teaching to heart?

 

As I stated earlier I have no real interest in studying with any of the people mentioned here. The idea of a path with heart has a ring of truth to it - but then we all can only make do with what we have been exposed to and what we bring ourselves to be exposed to.

 

I sense no quiet hearts on this thread, not even mine. In truth, I am worried for and about all the pain being emited from here.

 

Sean- I am beginning to understand that you have been deeply hurt, as you state - by Winn, and need to get that pain well away & out from your mind and being. It is bound to be a hard and painful process. Just please be aware that sometimes the excorsism of your pain is felt by some of us here as unreasonable attacks toward us and not just your getting rid of your anger in anyway that you are able to do so.

Now that I can get a sense of where your anger comes from - I can only sympathize and wish you well. BUT-I do ask you to TRY to be aware of the irrational levels that we all are capable of reaching when distrought. The reactions from a few of us only made you more angry and that is also too bad.

 

I know that I never had any ill-will towards you as a person, and I believe that Michael is also sympathetic to you as a person. Now that reason for the anger you emit is more clear, much has been made clear.

 

I will pray for you to also transcend the pain and get on with a more positive approach to offer. Let go of the pain and the anger as well as you are able to . It is one of the hardest things I have ever attempted to do. But I have found that attaching my anger to any available target is not productive. I suggest writing a heart-felt letter to Winn explaining how he has hurt you. Not to make him feel guilty, but to let him know the facts of the matter and not be complacent in his methods, which seem so very distructive from my point of view...

 

I trust this was not too much of a "Dear Abby" take on these matters I do not think I have any answers- I just wanted to express my concerns and try to heal...

Namaste-PDG

Edited April 16, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Spectrum]

I sense no quiet hearts on this thread

 

SHHhhhh. Listen.

 

Thump-Thump.... Thump-Thump.... Thump-Thump....

[DentyDao]

Sean- I am beginning to understand that you have been deeply hurt, as you state - by Winn, and need to get that pain well away & out from your mind and being. It is bound to be a hard and painful process. Just please be aware that sometimes the excorsism of your pain is felt by some of us here as unreasonable attacks toward us and not just your getting rid of your anger in anyway that you are able to do so.

Now that I can get a sense of where your anger comes from - I can only sympathize and wish you well. BUT-I do ask you to TRY to be aware of the irrational levels that we all are capable of reaching when distrought. The reactions from a few of us only made you more angry and that is also too bad.

 

I know that I never had any ill-will towards you as a person, and I believe that Michael is also sympathetic to you as a person. Now that reason for the anger you emit is more clear, much has been made clear.

 

I will pray for you to also transcend the pain and get on with a more positive approach to offer. Let go of the pain and the anger as well as you are able to . It is one of the hardest things I have ever attempted to do. But I have found that attaching my anger to any available target is not productive. I suggest writing a heart-felt letter to Winn explaining how he has hurt you. Not to make him feel guilty, but to let him know the facts of the matter and not be complacent in his methods, which seem so very distructive from my point of view...

 

I trust this was not too much of a "Dear Abby" take on these matters I do not think I have any answers- I just wanted to express my concerns and try to heal...

Namaste-PDG

 

Pat,

 

Thank you for your very thoughtfull approach. There is still some disapointment about my experience with Michael Winn, mostly sadness that people will continue to be fooled; not that he's totally evil. I would say it's more of a lack of respect than anger. Michael Winn called me to iron things out after our heated exchange on the HT forum, but as you can see from the letter I posted above, this only led to further insult.

 

I feel I have found a much better place to devote my time and energy and moved on, but I really do appreciate your understanding. In the end 'we are all on the same bus.'

 

P.S. Thanks to those who sent me PM's, you words are also appreciated and I'm glad you a few feel they benifited from what I written on the forum here.

[Wayfarer64]

SHHhhhh. Listen.

 

Thump-Thump.... Thump-Thump.... Thump-Thump....

 

Ah - I thought that was the couple next-door on the meditation & sex thread...

 

Seriously -Thank you for reminding me to listen to my own heart as often as I can... It is a very fine form of meditation, listening to ones heart listening to ones heart listening to ones heart

 

all the 10,000 things and their aspects, all the reasons, all the head-banging...just fades away

listening to ones heart...It even helps us make up our minds!

yes

I feel better now...

Edited April 16, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Smile]

I suggest writing a heart-felt letter to Winn explaining how he has hurt you. Not to make him feel guilty, but to let him know the facts of the matter and not be complacent in his methods, which seem so very distructive from my point of view...

Hi,

There were multiple conversations with Winn privately and on HT forum about the dangers of Iron $hirt, Bone marrow packing, $exual practices in the original book, etc. Still the books are for $ale with lame excu$e$. The only thing left is to inform the others. Plus, I believe Sean has touched only the tip of what M. Winn is. I wonder if he contacted Spyrelx a few years back after Winn owned me $50 (or was it $80?) and I told him to put it on Michael's account and sent him whatever he wants.

[thaddeus]

How dangerous is this stuff really. First of all, most people don't practice enough to actually get hurt. I can see the dangers of breathing/packing wrong, but you would have to do alot and you would be getting some serious headaches and such before anything really bad happened. Next, if you were the serious type to really practice this stuff I would think you would be clued in enough to see the Winn stuff for what it is. The only harm is you spent a little bit of money (he's not outrageously expensive) and you have nothing to show for it. IMO, it's not that much different with the *real deal* teachers anyway wherever they are.

T

[Eric23]

After reading through this thread, I'm really questioning what direction to turn. Kind of jumping on with Thaddeus here, what practices are safe, particularly for beginners? I'm getting the feeling that a lot of the stuff that has been allegedly "made up" started with Chia, and is being passed on by his former students. Who out there with material in English have not come through Chia or HT?

[DentyDao]

How dangerous is this stuff really. First of all, most people don't practice enough to actually get hurt. I can see the dangers of breathing/packing wrong, but you would have to do alot and you would be getting some serious headaches and such before anything really bad happened. Next, if you were the serious type to really practice this stuff I would think you would be clued in enough to see the Winn stuff for what it is. The only harm is you spent a little bit of money (he's not outrageously expensive) and you have nothing to show for it. IMO, it's not that much different with the *real deal* teachers anyway wherever they are.

T

Tell that to the people who spent a decade or more with Chia and Winn. I think they might see things a little differently. Lot's of health problems; and many of the original HT people have now died rather unbecoming deaths at what I would consider a relatively young age.

 

One example: when I was working for Michael a young lady named Fern from the East coast called the HT hotline. She had taken the basic HT course and practiced her smiling and the other fundamentals, but one day she was practicing and something went wrong. She became very mentally unbalanced and began having panic attacks; she was getting all kinds of ill effects. She even became fearfull to leave her apartment, worried that she might have a panic attack or become disoriented in a public setting. She was upset when she called. Michael tried to help her, but he couldn't. Whatever he suggested just made the problem worse.

 

After a few calls asking for more help. Michael told us not to take her calls. He got angry and started telling us 'this is why he doesn't play the master game and people needed to take responsability for there own practice and not leach others time and energy.' Mean while Fern's situation grew worse and worse and she was calling the retreat begging for help or she would sue. Michael refused to help her or talk with her about her problem. It was very sad for all of us and created a pretty dark mood in the office that month. Sadly, none of us could have helped her even if we had wanted to.

 

There were several calls like this that I personally took. Nobody was very interested or capable of helping these people.

 

I still get letters from people all the time who have side effects from the practice; most of them are minor, but some are serious.

 

But, aside from the fact that some people have health problems from the HT practices, the other half of the pie is the fact that they don't work. You can't take a method here and a technique there and mix it all up and come out with a functional system. It's a business venture not a spiritual practice. Some might argue that you can practice cooking or any activity and make it spiritual, but this, while it might be true, is a far cry from the promise and intention that has been presented by the HT.

 

S

Edited April 16, 2007 by seandenty

[spyrelx]

Sean,

 

Thanks for the response, sorry about the hatemail you've gotten and any unresolved pain from the HT days. Just a couple of things:

 

my comments about the Learner where meant as a totally tongue and cheek ribbing. My 'flame' was so obviously 'over the top,' that I didn't think anyone here would take it seriously. I was simply trying to illustrate the absurdity of the whole affair. I'm not at all angry at anyone.

 

It wasn't just that post, it was many others as well. Also -- regardless of intent -- you need to consider the effect on the reader. I'm pretty sure that most people here don't view your flames as harmless good fun jokes, but as serious, passionate, personal and ego-fueled insults. Rightly or wrongly, that's how you're viewed. So if you're at all concerned about getting information across (and why else would you be here?), you have to consider your audience and how they might take (or if you like "misinterpret") what you're putting out.

 

If people want to hold me up to 'higher standard' and single me out, there is really nothing I can do about it.

 

As someone above mentioned, I don't think you've being held to a higher standard. You simply get a lot more belligerent and personal, a lot more consistently, than most here. Part (though certainly not all) of the issue could be that you now have a reputation for it, so people are particularly sensitive to it. But, again, if you really want to generate light rather than heat, you're got to deal with those perceptions and modify the message accordingly. If you really don't care about getting a message across, then I suggest you've got little business being here.

 

The fact that some people (you included) seem to want to address 'my' personal issues on a thread that has nothing to do with 'me' boggles my mind. Why would anyone care that much?

 

Two things about that above quote. First, I'm addressing it because I think your behavior might relate to personal issues that have nothing to do with what the Learner or anyone else says and I'm a bit concerned about you. Perhaps that's arrogant on my part (never even met you) but it is I think also genuinely altruistic (or in that lingo that always makes me cringe "heart centered"). So in any event that's why. You can accept the concern about your personal issues or not, but enough people have pointed it out that I think it's at least worth considering.

 

Second, I note that you and others have addressed Michael Winn's "personal issues" on a thread that was about a philisophical statement that he made and really had not much at all to do with him as a person. I think it's fine to have a thread called "Why Michael Winn is full of it" or "What's wrong with Healing Dao". That's not what this thread was about. So, again, I just point out an inconsistency in approach and ask you to consider what might be behind it.

 

Why are people judging a school that I have been a part of for less than a year based on my behavior?

 

I can only speak for myself. On this Board, you're the "public face" of David's teachings. By that I mean you bring David and his teachings up all the time, and promote them as a true and beneficial path that gets results. Implied in all this is of course that youv'e been practicing his system for some time, and have been progressing along spiritually. Obviously no one is perfect, but to the extent you are inconsistent, rude, offensive, beligerent, irrational, hypocritcal, etc., that reflects on your school and your master. I'm sure David or any one of his teachers would agree.

 

(By the way, I don't mean that last paragraph as some sort of passive aggressive way to call you all those names and start a fight, I'm just trying to illustrate why one might judge a school by negative actions of its students).

 

Yes, I can be an asshole. Yes, I'm totally human and imperfect. But who are you to judge me. Are you saying there is no drama in your life?

 

Thanks for the admission. You're not the only one. Certainly I'm not perfect and can be an asshole as well. We all judge others, you more than most (read almost any of your posts on this site). I don't object to judgement, I object to anger and beligerence on a forum that is supposed to be about collective discussion. I've got drama (believe me) -- but I also try very hard not to take it out on a bunch of strangers who's only sin is they've invited me into their discussion group.

 

I think we could all use a little lightening up, don't you.

 

I do. In the interests of being consistent with our positions, why don't you start with yourself and think about that statement before you send your next few posts. I promise you I will do the same.

 

Finally, I know I said I wouldn't respond but, as you can see, I'm not perfect either.

 

Spyrelx

[spyrelx]

Tell that to the people who spent a decade or more with Chia and Winn. I think they might see things a little differently. Lot's of health problems; and many of the original HT people have now died rather unbecoming deaths at what I would consider a relatively young age.

 

One example: when I was working for Michael a young lady named Fern from the East coast called the HT hotline. She had taken the basic HT course and practiced her smiling and the other fundamentals, but one day she was practicing and something went wrong. She became very mentally unbalanced and began having panic attacks; she was getting all kinds of ill effects. She even became fearfull to leave her apartment, worried that she might have a panic attack or become disoriented in a public setting. She was upset when she called. Michael tried to help her, but he couldn't. Whatever he suggested just made the problem worse.

 

After a few calls asking for more help. Michael told us not to take her calls. He got angry and started telling us 'this is why he doesn't play the master game and people needed to take responsability for there own practice and not leach others time and energy.' Mean while Fern's situation grew worse and worse and she was calling the retreat begging for help or she would sue. Michael refused to help her or talk with her about her problem. It was very sad for all of us and created a pretty dark mood in the office that month. Sadly, none of us could have helped her even if we had wanted to.

 

There were several calls like this that I personally took. Nobody was very interested or capable of helping these people.

 

I still get letters from people all the time who have side effects from the practice; most of them are minor, but some are serious.

 

But, aside from the fact that some people have health problems from the HT practices, the other half of the pie is the fact that they don't work. You can't take a method here and a technique there and mix it all up and come out with a functional system. It's a business venture not a spiritual practice. Some might argue that you can practice cooking or any activity and make it spiritual, but this, while it might be true, is a far cry from the promise and intention that has been presented by the HT.

 

S

 

 

You know it's an interesting issue. The overall critique that some of these practices can be dangerous and no one appears to be reaching "immortality" using the HT techniques is, I think, quite accurate.

 

On the other hand, an interesting question is is the world a better or worse place for the existence of Chia and HT? For instance, although I don't feel like I'm on the road to immortality, I do think those practices have shown me vast possibilites, caused me to seek out more powerful teachers and practices, and therefore put me on the road to spiritual development. If I ever do achieve significant spiritual growth I'd have to honestly admit that guys like Chia and Daniel Reid were initial steps on that path.

 

I think Winn is very wrong to preach miraculous growth from his practices. And I think he shares that sin with virtually every teacher and book on daoist practices, regardless of whose system they represent.

 

But I think he's right to say people need to take responsiblity for their own development, particularly in the age of workshops and cafeteria style spirituality. I've definately backed off from certain HT practices because I felt I wasn't sufficiently strong or knowledgable to proceed.

 

I obviously don't know anything about this woman. It's perfectly conceivable to me that Winn could be an insensitive prick and that insensitivity could cause real damage. And I agree that a teacher has a greater moral responsibility toward the welfare of their students. It's also conceiveable to me that he could spot a nut and make a reasoned judgement call (which could prove to be correct or not).

Edited April 23, 2007 by spyrelx

[thaddeus]

You can't take a method here and a technique there and mix it all up and come out with a functional system. It's a business venture not a spiritual practice.

S

That's exactly what's wrong with these guys.

On the other stuff, there are lot of crazy people out there, whether the training practices, which you have to admit are largely innocuous mental visualizations, made them nuts is very debatable. I'm inclined to think the woman in your story was already unbalanced. Visualizing crucibles in your torso and concentrating on points on the orbit aren't going to give you health issues. Packing wrong? possible strokes, broken blood vessels, high blood pressure, but again, you have to be going completely hard core and completely unaware of what's going on in your body. Retention..maybe endocrine irregularities, prostrate problems/inflammation from the million dollar point nonsense. Chi weightlifing..obvious things can go wrong. But I think these are problems in all systems without adequate supervision. Even with great teachers things go wrong with students.

Funny, Dahn Yoga is a big cult probably worse than Chia, I wonder if they have the same issues.

T

[DentyDao]

Nice to see you enjoying yourself Spyrlex. Please know that I share non of 'your' concerns or your enjoyment.

Edited April 16, 2007 by seandenty

[Cameron]

Sean D you suck!

 

*kidding*

[DentyDao]

That's exactly what's wrong with these guys.

On the other stuff, there are lot of crazy people out there, whether the training practices, which you have to admit are largely innocuous mental visualizations, made them nuts is very debatable. I'm inclined to think the woman in your story was already unbalanced. Visualizing crucibles in your torso and concentrating on points on the orbit aren't going to give you health issues. Packing wrong? possible strokes, broken blood vessels, high blood pressure, but again, you have to be going completely hard core and completely unaware of what's going on in your body. Retention..maybe endocrine irregularities, prostrate problems/inflammation from the million dollar point nonsense. Chi weightlifing..obvious things can go wrong. But I think these are problems in all systems without adequate supervision. Even with great teachers things go wrong with students.

Funny, Dahn Yoga is a big cult probably worse than Chia, I wonder if they have the same issues.

T

 

I really do need to move on, but I will add a few more points. There are a lot of problems that the HT practices cause that are counter productive to cultivation. The big one, and the most popular, being the sexual practices. The only way you would know this was happening would be to go and see an authentic master. Unless you did this you might have no serious side effects, just a lower quality of life and weakened organs.

 

Peace, S

[voice]

Wayfarer asked "Chris- You seem to be rather well balanced for someone who has studied with Winn... the rest here seem distracted from reality & somehow imbittered...Why have you come out seemingly unscathed? Did you not take him/his teaching to heart?"

_______________________________________

 

Michael's personality is often bothersome to me, and I have challenged him on that several times, including on his discussion board. I have not seen the insensitivity that Sean Denty talks about, though I do not doubt it.

 

But, his teaching takes me deep, way deep, and that is what matters to me. Every course takes me into levels of being much deeper and more profound than I could imagine, and I couldn't ask for anything more.

 

Why am I unscathed by the HT practices? My former Shaolin teacher tells me that I have a special constitution to my "blood", and whenever we meet he gets scolds me for not teaching and sharing that state with others. So, maybe it is something I inherited. Or, maybe it is the many years that I spent before HT, dwelling in my crap, getting my house in order.

 

I trust my inner heart on people, and my inner heart is joyful on this path with Michael Winn.

 

Chris

[Wayfarer64]

Wayfarer asked "Chris- You seem to be rather well balanced for someone who has studied with Winn... the rest here seem distracted from reality & somehow imbittered...Why have you come out seemingly unscathed? Did you not take him/his teaching to heart?"

_______________________________________

Why am I unscathed by the HT practices? My former Shaolin teacher tells me that I have a special constitution to my "blood", and whenever we meet he gets scolds me for not teaching and sharing that state with others. So, maybe it is something I inherited. Or, maybe it is the many years that I spent before HT, dwelling in my crap, getting my house in order.

 

I trust my inner heart on people, and my inner heart is joyful on this path with Michael Winn.

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris-

This I can relate to. I also began with very basic paths. Judo,Hatha Yoga, ShaoLin (Hung Gar)KungFu and very simple quiet meditation techniques.

 

There was no seeking after power or immortality etc... Just a yearning to quiet my heart and mind and be as loving and open as I was able. Taoism has led my to seek oneness with the wider world and to seek a mindful approach to finding a way to be the best me I can manage to be.

 

I think that I understand the inner heart aspect of your calmness. I hope it is contagious !

 

Staying centered and calm(with a sense of humor)- usually has proved to be enough for the typical and even the extaordinary crap that enters my life.

 

I seek no master other than my own self-mastery. I am not sure that can be taught by anyone. - Which is (I think) - the point that PapaPaul makes...

 

I have no need to watch parking meters, but I don't follow leaders...

 

I am on a path that is getting simpler and harder, narrower and more sure, steeper and more breath-takingly wonderous. It is scary and sublime. I am only able to take it because I trust that it is mine and mine hearts' alone. I am mindful of my heart my breath and my life's will and the dispersal of that same will...I am thankful to be a loner on this path... I hear the banging on drums and racket from some other paths here and am grateful to be able to turn away and inward for a breath of my breath- the stuff of life the air that transforms my being every moment . the breath that sustains me the air that feeds my heart and lets me forget my head and its world of striving and figuring out the angles and the way to prove what ever...

So...

This monkey brain thing has some merit.

I have seen monkey forests on a couple continents...The monkeys are noisy and out-siders are not welcome. The monkeys vie for power & status and some are nasty as often as not, This depends a lot on the leaders' direction as much as anything else. A good monkey king brings peace and tranquility. There are often contenders who stir things up and the females usually make the peace and harmonize the group, while the young mellow everyone out with their play and foolery. We are not so different.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[xenolith]

spyrelx,

 

While you choose to believe that I'm lying, you'll not understand what I'm saying. Choose differently.

 

Love [which you (and possibly others) may find more understandable as Choose Love].

 

xeno

[Spectrum]

Silent meditation retreats. Lots less to think about, preferably less expectations on reality.

 

Spectrum