Being perceived

[Taomeow]

Being perceived by the world starts at exactly the same time we start perceiving the world. Did you notice when you came into existence in the world? Do you remember when, do you remember how it felt?

 

What about being perceived by the world? Did you notice when the world noticed you? Did your mother notice you first, or maybe a doctor? Do you remember when, do you remember how it felt?

 

Do you perceive being perceived? Do you notice mirrors? Do you notice your reflection in the mirrors? Do you ever feel that some of them are distorted and can't reflect you correctly? How does it feel to be reflected in a distorted mirror? How does it feel to be reflected in the mirror that mirrors you accurately?

 

If what we perceive, as they like to say today citing authorities in the field of quantum physics, among others, is influenced and modified by the very process of observation --

 

what does this process do to us when WE are the object of observation, when we are the 'material' of others' perceptions?..

 

???

Edited March 19, 2007 by Taomeow

[Bob H]

what does this process do to us when WE are the object of observation, when we are the 'material' of others' perceptions?..

 

???

 

In a martial arts school I attended we did an exercise while outside in a flat grassy area. All except one student stood spread out in a big circle, backs to the center and eyes closed. One student stood in the middle, and his/her task was to select a circle member at random and softly, silently, sneak up behind them and touch them. While doing this, the "stalker" was instructed to intentionally project chi with all the malice he could summons, if necessary visualizing violent deeds he would do when within range. The students in the circle were instructed to, as soon as they perceived they were being stalked, turn around and open their eyes. There were of course many false starts at first, but we got better and better at "feeling" the attack coming, often as soon as the stalker made his selection.

 

Then, we turned it around. This time the stalker was told to try to "turn their chi inward", to suppress or swallow all intention. After the usual false starts, only the most experienced students ever detected the stalker before being touched.

 

I would conclude from these experiences that the effect of observation depends greatly on the intentions of the observer and the strength of those intentions.

[Leidee]

what does this process do to us when WE are the object of observation, when we are the 'material' of others' perceptions?..

 

???

 

 

It does nothing to me. It is external to me. I sense it and can acknowledge the observations/perceptions but I don't buy into it.

[Taomeow]

It does nothing to me. It is external to me. I sense it and can acknowledge the observations/perceptions but I don't buy into it.

 

Do you remember at what age it started? Or were you like that from birth? And if not, when and why did you choose to become separated/divorced from the external? Did the external world somehow fail you? Hurt you?..

 

In a martial arts school I attended we did an exercise while outside in a flat grassy area. All except one student stood spread out in a big circle, backs to the center and eyes closed. One student stood in the middle, and his/her task was to select a circle member at random and softly, silently, sneak up behind them and touch them. While doing this, the "stalker" was instructed to intentionally project chi with all the malice he could summons, if necessary visualizing violent deeds he would do when within range. The students in the circle were instructed to, as soon as they perceived they were being stalked, turn around and open their eyes. There were of course many false starts at first, but we got better and better at "feeling" the attack coming, often as soon as the stalker made his selection.

 

Then, we turned it around. This time the stalker was told to try to "turn their chi inward", to suppress or swallow all intention. After the usual false starts, only the most experienced students ever detected the stalker before being touched.

 

I would conclude from these experiences that the effect of observation depends greatly on the intentions of the observer and the strength of those intentions.

 

Cool exercise!

 

Which party do you mean by "observer" in your last sentence, the students in the circle or the "stalker"?

 

I wonder what would happen if the "stalker" was instructed to stalk the people in the circle with love, admiration, blessings, delight... Would he or she be able to generate enough of these for others to feel?.. And if not, would it mean we are better at projecting and/or perceiving (or both) malicious intent than benevolence?..

Edited March 20, 2007 by Taomeow

[Bob H]

Do you remember at what age it started? Or were you like that from birth? And if not, when and why did you choose to become separated/divorced from the external? Did the external world somehow fail you? Hurt you?..

 

Cool exercise!

 

Which party do you mean by "observer" in your last sentence, the students in the circle or the "stalker"?

 

Ack! I wasn't very clear, was I? What I meant to do is to return to your original topic. In the last sentence I meant that the "observer" is the stalker, and the "observed" is whoever in the circle he/she picked out for the stalk.

 

 

I wonder what would happen if the "stalker" was instructed to stalk the people in the circle with love, admiration, blessings, delight... Would he or she be able to generate enough of these for others to feel?.. And if not, would it mean we are better at projecting and/or perceiving (or both) malicious intent than benevolence?..

 

That's a very good idea, and I like it better than the exercise I experienced. Better still, try both if you can find a cooperative group (which, sadly, I no longer am near).

[Leidee]

Do you remember at what age it started? Or were you like that from birth? And if not, when and why did you choose to become separated/divorced from the external? Did the external world somehow fail you? Hurt you?..

 

And this is a prime example of the effect of perception Your questions are based on your perception of my words. Such loaded terms as "did the world somehow fail you?" or to become "divorced from the external"! Why would you think that would be the genesis of my realisation that another person's perception of me has very little actually to do with me?

 

 

An external perception is often based on the erroneous belief that another person can know me better than I can know myself...

[agharta]

Speaking of stalking, the Tom Brown tracker school teaches people to be able to walk right up to a wild deer and touch it. I've never gone, but I have a couple of friends who recommend his workshops highly.

[Wayfarer64]

Being sensitive has many conotations. Most folks are much more sensitive to the slings and arrows flung at them than as to how their own barbs disaffect those who receive the bad vibes. It seems to me that being aware of how we inter-act with all other life forms needs to be looked at if we are ever to expand our consciousness.

 

I think of these potential sensitivities as part of the larger evolution of the human species. Expanding our mind-set to enclude all of life is a basic Taoist goal for me.

 

The whole stalking aspect goes to the hunter-prey relationship that constitutes so much of the worlds' eco-system. That the honoring and admiration of the prey was a basic part of many culture's hunting techniques may be because it caused the prey to accept its fate through love and admiration and gratitude, not just the hunters' need for food.

 

This scenario may also go to explain a basic inter-action of will and fate. Accepting that oneself is now to become the food of another creature may be the ultimate sacrifice and revealation of some life forms.

 

We each have to give and receive many forms of energy to sustain life and also give it deeper meaning and purpose.

[Japhy Ryder]

 

Accepting that oneself is now to become the food of another creature may be the ultimate sacrifice and revealation of some life forms.

 

 

I've always, always felt this. Living as a human, regardless of one's scruples about type(s) of food consumed, means taking life and giving it--sustenance implies both. Keeping faith with this means allowing oneself, when one's done with one's body, to become food; we are, after all, already food for countless "friendly" and potentially "unfriendly" micro-organisms while we live.

 

After I die, I don't want my remains sealed in an outrageously heavy and expensive box and sunk in a concrete vault. It would be arrogant and hypocritical of me to try to disengage myself from the cycle of life in that way.

[Taomeow]

Wayfarer,

 

yes, sensitivity and responsiveness is it! In fact, that's what consciousness IS if you ask me... not "thinking" or "non-thinking" confined in either case to one's isolated head but sensitive and responsive interactions with the world using one's whole being -- body, mind, soul, integration, "outgoing" and "incoming" perceptions alike.

 

A whole, integral (or integrated through practice) consciousness is able to accurately perceive other beings, entities, phenomena, energies. A fragmented consciousness is numbed out to them and either can't feel others at all (except through the crudest of interactions), or can't help misunderstanding and misinterpreting (distorted mirrors!) their intent.

 

I don't think human consciousness is evolving though... I think it's degrading, and fast. We used to be sensitive and responsive as a species, naturally, and what we think of today as special, extraordinary, magical abilities used to be the natural manifestation of our once-functional sensitivity to the energies of the world and the resulting ability to respond to them and interact with them with competent precision. Restoring this lost state of being and some of these lost abilities (the more the merrier) is what taoist cultivation is really about, by the way...

[fatherpaul]

Being perceived by the world starts at exactly the same time we start perceiving the world. Did you notice when you came into existence in the world? Do you remember when, do you remember how it felt?

YES

What about being perceived by the world? Did you notice when the world noticed you? Did your mother notice you first, or maybe a doctor? Do you remember when, do you remember how it felt?

peaceful

Do you perceive being perceived? Do you notice mirrors? Do you notice your reflection in the mirrors? Do you ever feel that some of them are distorted and can't reflect you correctly? How does it feel to be reflected in a distorted mirror? How does it feel to be reflected in the mirror that mirrors you accurately?

it is really quite unsettling to directly see ones total self in one look

If what we perceive, as they like to say today citing authorities in the field of quantum physics, among others, is influenced and modified by the very process of observation --

 

what does this process do to us when WE are the object of observation, when we are the 'material' of others' perceptions?..

 

???

in a way this creates the world we live in

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 28, 2021 by darebak

[Wayfarer64]

Hi Japphy & Taomeow,

 

Many thanks for yr responses... I guess on further contemplation I can agree that we have atrophied some abilities as a species.

 

But, if indeed we once had a greater communion of spirit in generations past, I think that the scientific knowledge we have gained can now be reapplied to those dormant abilities and we may be awakened at a new level of compitance and undestanding of those abilities. As in without dangerous supersticions.

 

Some of us still commune with nature and each other, so it is not dead as a genetic trait or practice. And I am hopeful for those of us who feel the power of plants and animals and still react to the world with an inner acceptance that is not naive but aware and atuned, (or at least open to) the whole cosmos...

 

In fact it seems from a sampling of just us TaoBums- there is still some damn fine shamanistic potential!

 

The race ain't run-out yet. Sure, we've brought ourselves to a brink and may indeed be gone in a blink - but perhaps we can get it together and pull back from the abyss to reclaim our heritage as spiritual beings on a magnificent planet that offers all the things needed for our spirits to evolve. Challanges and joys aplenty...

[林愛偉]

Hi Japphy & Taomeow,

 

Many thanks for yr responses... I guess on further contemplation I can agree that we have atrophied some abilities as a species.

 

But, if indeed we once had a greater communion of spirit in generations past, I think that the scientific knowledge we have gained can now be reapplied to those dormant abilities and we may be awakened at a new level of compitance and undestanding of those abilities. As in without dangerous supersticions.

 

Some of us still commune with nature and each other, so it is not dead as a genetic trait or practice. And I am hopeful for those of us who feel the power of plants and animals and still react to the world with an inner acceptance that is not naive but aware and atuned, (or at least open to) the whole cosmos...

 

In fact it seems from a sampling of just us TaoBums- there is still some damn fine shamanistic potential!

 

The race ain't run-out yet. Sure, we've brought ourselves to a brink and may indeed be gone in a blink - but perhaps we can get it together and pull back from the abyss to reclaim our heritage as spiritual beings on a magnificent planet that offers all the things needed for our spirits to evolve. Challanges and joys aplenty...

 

 

The way to do that successfully is to awaken to non-dual nature.

 

Peace and Happiness

 

Aiwei

[Spectrum]

subject object dissolution fusion