please enligthen me!!!

[sunshine]

Hey guys & girls,

 

this is Harry from Germany and after having started with HT practices about 10 years ago and soon stopped and having tried something different or nothing I am now back and do find many being "against" HT, against either Michael Winn or Mantak... anybody willing to let me know the reasons why and to point me into other directions if felt necessary (and why again)?

 

would be much appreciated

 

Harry

[spyrelx]

I've got very little problem with Chia. I find him a genuine guy who is trying to teach what he knows. And I think a lot of what he teaches is very good. Though I appear to be in a minority here.

 

Michael Winn kind of bugs me on a personal level. But I think what he teaches is pretty good as well.

 

So there you have it. At least one of us thinks they're both OK.

[MatthewQi]

I am thankful for both Master Chia and Michael Winn and for what I learned through them. And of course I am thankful for One Cloud and the lineage or mishmash of taoist before. Ultimately, your teacher can only help you so far and in the "end" your on your own. A good teacher, like Mantak and Michael, fosters this indepedence and through their teachings, one is able to embark on the path of self-discovery.

 

Yet imo more important than your teacher is your pure desire for Tao. No one can teach you this and without it I do not believe all the formulas or teachers in the world will help you. Yet with it, an appropriate teacher will appear.

 

Inner Peace,

 

Matt

[peter falk]

i think another reason is that chia and winn have alowed the daoist teachings to evolve in the west. they let the dao teach them instead of clinging to mauals and traditional forms. and the minute someone starts doing that they come under fire of allthe traditionalists. chia and winn still value the traditional forms very highly, but sometimes things have to be adpated or modified or discarded depending on what the dao is teaching you, not what the books say.

 

peopel hated darwin at first too. and galileo. and copernicus. well, you get the idea....

[Max]

Welcome.

You can find some answers to questions you might have here:

http://www.meditationexpert.com/articles.html

[Trunk]

..find many being "against" HT, against either Michael Winn or Mantak...  anybody willing to let me know the reasons why and to point me into other directions..

Though there sometimes is criticism of character, to the point is re: principle and technique. Too much for one post.

 

Couple of thoughts... one, another one, two.

 

No one has fully corrected the situation, imo. Winn is trying - and making some headway.

[sunshine]

Thankx guys. I will open up a new topic regarding meditationexpert...

 

Trunk: your reason two...? What do you mean. You feel such a webside to be of disservice?

 

thankx again

 

Harry

[Trunk]

your reason two...? What do you mean. You feel such a webside to be of disservice?

That website is my attempt (still under construction, and probably will be for some years) to provide alternative viewpoints, resources, solutions.

[sunshine]

ups. Sorry for this & a lot of thankx for that webside. Have downloaded it already. Allow me a question: your description of bringing down the heavenly energy in order to fascilitate the opening of the front vessel in the mo:

There is no breathing pattern involved? Just "feeling" the chakras get wide for a certain time and then move on (no time pattern?)... does one feel or "imagine" at the same time while moving from top to bottom the connection to the front vessel points or is it meant to be just "working" with the core channel and the rest will happen by itself?

 

And another question if you don't mind: you say under point one:

 

"This is done by abandoning the deeper principles of Taoism (which must be taught first in order for this stuff to work), and promoting some of the more sensational (very advanced, much later) results. Unfortunately, the practices (and advanced 'fun' stuff) without the deeper stuff first is a sure recipe for injury."

 

Where to find out about the deeper stuff you mention?

 

thankx again

 

Harry

[Trunk]

question: your description of bringing down the heavenly energy in order to fascilitate the opening of the front vessel in the mo:

There is no breathing pattern involved? Just "feeling" the chakras get wide for a certain time and then move on (no time pattern?)...

The radiance from the centers refines the energy in ren (the front channel). Also, being relaxed in the core (one ctr at a time in this method) allows the energy to flow more freely, down.

 

 

And another question if you don't mind: you say under point one:

 

"This is done by abandoning the deeper principles of Taoism (which must be taught first in order for this stuff to work), and promoting some of the more sensational (very advanced, much later) results. Unfortunately, the practices (and advanced 'fun' stuff) without the deeper stuff first is a sure recipe for injury."  

 

Where to find out about the deeper stuff you mention?

To a some extent, i am a victim of my own criticism on this; still more essays to write to be especially clear and upfront. The gentle path of blending, harmony, resolution into stillness is it though.. and my website tends to promote along those lines. That cultivation is about Realizing Fundamental Nature, and that "cultivating energy" and "sensation" are short of the goal (yet are legitimate within perspective). Orienting towards "building chi presure" is horribly misleading.

 

Several relevant pages from my site:

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/gaps.htm

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/Ext...xtVesCenter.htm

 

Various statements and orientation, throughout the site, follow along this line.

 

Trunk

[Trip]

Harry,

 

Out of curiosity, why did you stop your Healing Tao practices?

 

IMO a great deal of the criticism directed at Chia around here is a little shrill. Keith (Trunk) and I have jousted a little over this. I have total respect for Michael Winn, but don't see how he can blame the death of that single practitioner in Tibet on dangerous practices taught by Chia, yet believe "the 150,000 who died in Asia had a date with destiny." I hope I stay cool with Plato when I say he was rumour-mongering in raincoat and shades about "the fact [that Chia] stole his "cosmic healing" book from another author."

 

We've all got our axes. Close as the tongue is to the upper lip in an expression of mad delight, I am faithful to you. Until one fine day...

 

Personally, I believe a Chia in the hand is worth more than a Bodri in the bush. But that could change.

 

Chia travels to Germany regularly; if you want to find out about the Healing Tao today, why don't you attend a retreat and simply see how you like the practices? That's all that matters.

 

Trip

[Trunk]

Trip,

The strongest vibe i get from you is that the Chia system is totally working for you.

- we're all finding our own Way.

Keith

[peter falk]

you can learn the deeper principles of daoism from the qi and from the dao itself. its a matter of preference if you want the intellectual foundastion first or the feel of qi first. eithert way is ok, depending on the person.

 

dirk ollebrandt teaches in belgium and imho he's among the cream of the crop in healing tao. excellent teacher, a fine gentleman, and funny as shit. if i lived in europe i'd be studying with him.

 

best thing to remember is that the dao is the effortless way. to me that means doing what comes naturally instead of forcing results. immortality is forever so dont feel like you have to rush anything. i first got a grasp on this from tom brown, jr. later, maicael winn was intrumental in solidifying it. probably the most important lessoni got from him.

[sunshine]

Also, being relaxed in the core (one ctr at a time in this method) allows the energy to flow more freely, down.

 

Thankx for clarifying, Trunk, and hope you don't mind me being a bit slow in understanding: "one ctr at a time in this method" means?

 

Sitting down today doing the crown, tomorrow the brain centre, the day after the throat...?

 

Just woke up. Maybe that'S the reason I didn't get it...

 

thankx again

 

Harry

[sunshine]

Harry,Out of curiosity, why did you stop your Healing Tao practices?

 

Hi Trip. Well. I met Chia in person several times... about 10 years ago a woman I knew organized some of his workshops here. The reason I stopped is simple... one day my body started shaking uncontrollably in meditation and this extended to my outside activities out of nowhere. In order to stop that I had to concentrate really hard so that nobody really realized what was happening, but as soon as I relaxed a bit that whole thing started over again. (might have been "kundalini" or whatever)

 

The problem was. I did not feel the teachers at that time to be able to resolve such a situation... and as the teachers took money I was a bit afraid of how much it could cost if they tried...

 

stopping the practice stopped the problem. Had I known at that time what I know today I might have continued.

 

Further I feel that the perineum pressure technique has messed up my perineum...

 

well. That is basically it.

 

Harry

[sunshine]

you can learn the deeper principles of daoism from the qi and from the dao itself.  its a matter of preference if you want the intellectual foundastion first or the feel of qi first.  eithert way is ok, depending on the person.

 

Master Falk. Why do you think that there is so much talk about people moving astray from the way? It does not seem to be that simple if one hears about bad spirits that try to keep you where you are or even try to make things worse...

 

thankx for hinting at that man in Belgium!

 

Harry

[Trunk]

Also, being relaxed in the core (one ctr at a time in this method) allows the energy to flow more freely, down.

 

Thankx for clarifying, Trunk, and hope you don't mind me being a bit slow in understanding: "one ctr at a time in this method" means?

 

Sitting down today doing the crown, tomorrow the brain centre, the day after the throat...?

I've always done it simply until i feel the energy move down, be refined by, flow by, that center. Cover all the centers within a single sit, one time around - or multiple cycles.

 

Those are my suggestions but, of course, be sensitive to your own body and - if some variation feels more appropriate. Part of, a big part of, this education is to gain sensitivity, experiece, develope your own good judgement, for what feels right for your own body. Really important.

[Trip]

Keith,

 

Well yes, Chia's practices work for me. But so do Michael's, and B.K. Frantzis's, and the ones described in Warriors of Stillness. I'm not trying to hawk or defend Chia in particular. But the more vehement attacks seem mostly to reflect the attacker's biases, needs, issues, disappointments, etc. Why not find our way and respect the ground we walked over? If we take a wrong turn, blame the navigator and not the star we followed.

 

Trip

[Trip]

Harry,

 

Your reply is fascinating. If it's not too personal, would you mind sharing whether you think the shaking was caused by the practices or by something in you? I mean, were you a perfectly healthy piece of meat before you started doing energy work, or did you have issues or blockages or addictions which the practices unleashed? And what exactly did you do? And did you do it either to excess or too hard? And did the problems start when you worked with Chia, or later with the teacher(s), or when you were by yourself? And, most mysterious, what do you know today that would have maybe caused you to continue practicing then? Personally, I wouldn't have if I'd been in your shoes.

 

By the way, I want to second Peter Falk's recommendation on Dirk Ollebrandt. He's amazing.

 

Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm really curious.

 

Trip

[sunshine]

Thank you Keith for taking the time. Started the practice and it seems to work.

 

 

Trip. As I've got no secrets. You can ask as personal as you like. I sure was not that healthy at that time. But what came after (not only due to the practices but due to my further search) made things worse, so that I start at a worse place than I was before. Regarding your question if it was a problem in me or the practices, I'd answer: "both". The shaking actually started from the spine, so I assume that energy tried to rise and caused that shaking due to a blockage. As I further tried to mix several "systems" (having somethign read here and something there) I am sure I pretty messed up my energy system.

 

Had I known about a place like this to ask I would have asked until somebody would have come up with a solution. Meanwhile I have read so much about kundalini awakenings that I would very likely have carried on with the practice until I would have been through it. But at that time I was damn scared. And as I said. I did not trust the abilities of the instructors too much at that time. And stopping was easy.

 

Chia has some issues. But I like that guy. It was not him that induced that state. Never really had a kind of energy-transfer-feeling while being at the workshops. I think it was simply messy practice on my side and too little knowledge, but what should I've been doing: I did not know about any guidelines, so I very much understand why some insist that you need to have a personal teacher to go to AND it has to be someone who is absolutely familiar with the ground. OR you need more knowledge, which girls & guys here help to provide, but again: that was not available to me at that time. So. Nothing myterious about all that.

 

Later I picked up Falun Gong and I was told that any kind of shaking during the practices is meant not to happen. I went to a Falung Gong week and sure enough the shaking started again during the standing meditation. AND sure enough people there had a problem with that, as it was Master who said that skaking is not advised to be allowed to happen. So a nice guy spoke to me and I tried to tell him that this happens naturally and I can not do anything about it. So he said: "Ah well. Must be the old stuff from your earlier practices that needs to be cleared first..."

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

Recently I picked up Spring Forest Qigong. A nice little Qigong practice. My major aim is to get myself back into shape first. I have severe sleeping disoders, sometimes being in bed 10-12 hours but not really sleeping and not being really fresh throughout the day... etc. etc.

 

Sure enough the shaking started to happen again. In moving Qigong it is o.k. but during sitting meditation my body makes what it wants. always a good stretch at least...

 

What I believe to have found out is that it happens mainly when my mind starts walking around... as soon as I concentrate the shaking & movement gets a lot better.

 

this is it from me so far. Thankx for asking and letting me share

 

Harry

[Trunk]

Harry

 

Would you say that you are sensitive to energy? People vary. For instance, do you feel tingling?, flowing energy?, the resonance of spaces?, people?, that resonance in you change noticably as a result of practice?

 

If yes, always been that way?, or was there a certain event that triggered change?

 

Keith

[sunshine]

Well Keith. I do feel tingling during practice. I had occasions of hot "rushes" through my spine. There have been periods (especially under the use of holosync and in the beginning of taking that monoatomic-ormus stuff) that certain areas in my brain were expanding and condensing or that certain points have been "stuck" for certain periods of time (interestingly some points being stuck in my brain correlated with for example dysfunctional breathing...)... I do feel emotions constricting areas in my body and being able to dissolve them with EFT & Releasing if apllied... not always to full success but a lot of beneficial release

 

I can not say if it was a certain event that triggered it. I assume it was beginning the Qi Gong practice in the HT system...

 

My major problem has always been inconsistency in practice. I started and stopped, started and stopped. This is the first time I feel I could keep up the practice. But I am confused about people like Bodri & Master Li of Falung Gong saying that all that Qi Gong with energy & etc. is just low level stuff and will lead you nowhere. Very confusing...

 

Harry

[Trunk]

But I am confused about people like Bodri & Master Li of Falung Gong saying that all that Qi Gong with energy & etc. is just low level stuff and will lead you nowhere. Very confusing...

I heard a teacher say that "energy is like God's clothes". The more foundational orientation is toward deep stillness (related to subjects like the no-self doctrine, non-duality, emptiness, clear light [dharmakaya]). The progression is form, energy, formlessness. "The Tao that can be named is not the Tao." Classical Taoism is very aware of the 'beyond energy manipulation' point of view.

 

In a number of Classic Schools, its considered that its the emptiness practice/view that gets the energetic cultivation to actually work right.

 

It might be said, from a certain strict interpretation that - without that foundational understanding - qi gong is not really "Taoist".

 

All of this is very related to my statement that a certain teacher is "selling sensation and marketing it as Taoism". My statement wasn't intended as some sort of baseless slam, but very carefully worded in regards to the above topics of study. If the whole "slamming" issue could be looked past (its not the issue, in my mind), the statement could lead to some very interesting conversations. .. interesting study... into very root issues of Buddhism, and Taoism.

[GrandTrinity]

Ddirk Ollebrandt is the man, he has a book, audio and video on his website, GET IT.

 

Also, I think the problem with HT is that it is such a deep system that when you first get into it you get lost, right away. For example, for me, I picked up Transform Stress into Vitality and I didnt know one should start with Dao Yin or something grounding....major kundalini psychosis becuase I knew of no teacher in my area who could help (certified through the HT) or otherwise.

 

If only he said: START WITH DAO YIN and made this clear I think a lot of people would be saved from seriously MAJOR BULLSHIT. IT PISSES ME OFF!

 

Now, Dirk's system is great. Also Wu Dang mountain is saposedly the Mecca for Taoists, I'll be getting a couple chi kung forms in the mail soon teaching those, so stay tuned, ya heard?

[sunshine]