Tai Chi and cultivation

[Coderiffics]

I've been involved in a Tai Chi school for several years and have enjoyed learning their version of the art. Even so, I admittedly started studying Tai Chi due to an interest in internal alchemy and because I thought it would complement my practice. During my time studying Tai Chi, I've noticed several of my teachers speak of internal alchemy, use the appropriate terminology, and ask me if I "felt" certain things, etc. They've also hinted that their own internal alchemy was working simply due to the Tai Chi they were practicing. Of course, the unspoken implication is that they have studied Tai Chi for so many years that they've transcended the form, but I'm frankly a bit skeptical.

 

Does anyone have any personal experiences related to Tai Chi and internal alchemy and the one leading to the other? I can easily see how they would complement each other, but can Tai Chi actually in and of itself lead to the same results you'd get from the various Chi Gong practices, or other cultivating or meditating practices?

 

Is Tai Chi "all that"?

[thaddeus]

Is Tai Chi "all that"?

This is a good inquiry. The obvious answer is 'no', of course not. BUT, taichi does have alot of taoist and TCM influence. Problem is nobody who has any real demonstrable skill in taichi is teaching it. What you find for the most part is ALOT of misunderstanding, confusion and misinformation regarding the physical skills let alone what is supposed to be happening internally. There is no universal agreement on simple things like dantian rotation, weight shifting, and propery body structure so how could there be any on the esoteric levels. My gut feeling is that if people are talking about it it's probably self delusion. Of course there is nothing special about taichi over and above any other movement discipline. And, just look at all the great taichi masters--none of them are noted for any cultivation effects. Even Feng, who learned from arguably the greatest taichi master (chen fake) still learned some serious chi gung from another (name escapes me right now) and teaches both. So I think what you might find are some people who have cultivation knowledge and *happen* to know and practice taichi and decided to start incorporating those ideas into the practice. My yardstick for good taichi is whether or not reverse breathing is taught in the form. If not, then it's not even scratching the surface. In reverse breathing you not only get the micro and macro cosmic orbits flowing better, but the martial aspects can really be exploited correctly.

T

[Neijia]

[thaddeus]

[Neijia]

What about them?

None of them are known as 'cultivators'.

 

I disagree. Hsu Fun Yuen in Chicago still teaches seminars in Neigung, and other cultivation methods on occasion. While admittedly, I know a great deal about him than I do William Chen, I'm not too surprised. Most people from that generation are teaching less, or are teaching other methods and investigations.

 

Yeah, this seems to be the party line. More often than not it's just a man behind the curtain.

Party line or not, regardless of offended loyalists, that was my teacher's experience. All of which he shares freely - to an extant (something which I'll expound on in a later paragraph). I am allowing that perhaps it is his teaching method, but serious cultivation can be realized through real Taiji, and the accompanying qigongs.

 

Same with Baguazhang, and Xingyi. I don't believe any martial art represents a complete path, but they certainly complement cultivation practice strongly.

 

As for the Wizard of Oz metaphor, I've personally seen a number of people hurt by practicing incorrectly, much less heard about a few on this forum. Maybe learning from a good teacher that is holding back, until a person's mind and body is ready, and not learning solely from some HD book can be a positive?

[thaddeus]

I disagree. Hsu Fun Yuen in Chicago still teaches seminars in Neigung, and other cultivation methods on occasion.

I should have said I never heard of him, so my bad. Where did he learn the Neigung he is teaching? I highly doubt it came from CMC.

As for the Wizard of Oz metaphor, I've personally seen a number of people hurt by practicing incorrectly, much less heard about a few on this forum. Maybe learning from a good teacher that is holding back, until a person's mind and body is ready, and not learning solely from some HD book can be a positive?

Certainly. If there is such a teacher, I'm willing to check it out. Are you learning from Hsu Fun Yuen or do you have a different teacher?

T

[Spectrum]

There is no universal agreement on simple things like dantian rotation, weight shifting, and propery body structure so how could there be any on the esoteric levels.

 

Before the guys thread is reduced to a highlight of various tai chi personalities within the style I'd like to point out something that might help.

 

The universal principles your looking for in tai chi can't be isolated to one style (yang, chen, wu, etc) or one person. Of particular note is dan tien rotation, of which if you imagine a ball, the direction of rotation and spin vary w/ each style, and even w/ each person subtlies manifest w/ each person. This isn't a bad thing, these are individual and stylized representations of the evolution of the embodiment of chinese philosophy.

 

For instance in yang style the first turn and weight transfer is simple holding the ball, while in chen the same turn and weight transfer has the ball changing polarity. The principles are the same, because of the common medium (the body), but the execution of the principles, the disisions on the path of movement are various.

 

Wu Ji, Yin Yang, Tai Chi, I Ching; these are the constants in Chinese Taoist philosophy. In reference to movement and cultivation they act as helpful reference in finding the paths between the reference points of the forms... acting as a foundation for the patterning of all the movements.... weight shifting, body alignment (structure), breath; these are the points in which a practitioner finds themself within or without "wuji" during "tai chi" ; or stillness while in motion... motion while in stillness.

 

In reference to the esoteric:

 

and ask me if I "felt" certain things,

 

Have any of your teachers talked about how tai chi turns into chi gung? Has your tai chi instruction included push hands and standing meditation pre or post practice? Have any of them spoke of cultivation or circulation of chi and associated any of those "feelings" with that?

 

Of the different teachers you've trained which forms of tai chi have you studied?

 

Good luck on your quest,

 

Spectrum

Edited March 22, 2007 by Spectrum

[Neijia]

I should have said I never heard of him, so my bad. Where did he learn the Neigung he is teaching? I highly doubt it came from CMC.

 

Certainly. If there is such a teacher, I'm willing to check it out. Are you learning from Hsu Fun Yuen or do you have a different teacher?

T

 

Hsu Fun Yuen is actually my grandmaster. My master studied with him for 11 years.

Unfortunately *unfortunate because it hardly bolsters my earlier point, but perhaps underscores the benefits of a specific teaching style/school* he learned neigong from Liu Pei Zhong of the Kunlun Pai.

 

Anyway, back to the thought behind the rant, there *are still people that have very skill skill teaching Taiji. Despite the cheap knockoffs. And while by itself, it isn't a pure method of cultivation, it certainly compliments and carries forth those efforts, in my opinion.

[mYTHmAKER]

Have any of your teachers talked about how tai chi turns into chi gung?

Spectrum

It is my understanding that tai chi is qi gong. It does not turn into qigong.

if it is done according to tai chi principles you will get the desired results.

Otherwise it is dance or exercise.

The same could be said for other qi gongs. If they are not done properly you

won't get the desired results.

[Spectrum]

It is my understanding that tai chi is qi gong. It does not turn into qigong.

 

... lets make the distinction here that Tai Chi does have a martial aspect, and chigung is more commonly known for it's health. Since chi gung focuses on breath right away I don't see how tai chi could be chi gung unless basic rhythmic breathing principles are taught right away; but wait, inhale when you draw in, exhale when you push; this wisdom from two person push hands practice.

 

and misinformation regarding the physical skills let alone

 

Not when you consistantly engage in push hands practice. How does that lie? How can you be misinformed by someone getting out of the way of your push? What about when you realize if you relax your breath to harmonize with the movement and something naturally profound happens? This does not take away from the physicallity of the practice. Tai Chi is part of the rich physical culture of china, including paired exercises. It should be engaged in as eagerly as any other form of cultivation.

 

 

If you are moving solo braething naturally in harmony with your movements; viola chi gung; a physiological transformation process in a pretty little package. At the root of most classical martial arts is a personal healing that transfers into your enviroment through your actions. Most external styles are only able to approach this once their actions, even within their "belief" system of style or world view, have broken themselves somehow, so they quest for healing. Chinese internal martial arts begin at healing. 6000 years of medical chinese history exists as a common stem for all the arts it flourished.

 

Tai Chi reflects the breathing of Chi Gung once a player learns the basic form, that's like part of the natural reward system... i suppose you can just learn gasp birds tail and breath and find your zone, but you lose the classical elements of mental-physical education if you remove the diveristy of moves AND the meditative aspect (duration); ref Da Liu "Tai Chi Chuan & Meditation" or "Fundamentals of Tai Chi Chuan" by Huang (HK)

 

I don't think the full physiological potential or the meditative benifits of Tai Chi can be reached without Chi Gung breathing of some type; it's most basic being an elongation of the breath cycle common to all forms of tai chi chuan. Chi Gung on a cultual level certainly has more variations of breath fire times and cycles then Tai Chi, however, Tai Chi, as do most martial arts, reserves combative breathing techniques for adepts who prove themselves cabable, these are not practices that do any good being talked about, they're meaning is do be experienced in the wordsless field of human movement experience.

 

Now what if the person is still in the process of learning that basic form of Tai Chi... of attuning their movements to the essential elements of the "form" then it could be said they are in the process of learning and have yet to get the "desired results" of the form if it's for health; for example there are so many different forms of tai chi does each produce different results at the point the practitioner realizes the physiological transformations he experiences as chi gung? Is that point of mind-breath-body singularity considered the crossover from TaiChi to ChiGung? The harmony of the elements? For a moment they felt it, then it was gone, searching they do not find it, looking it vanishes... this is the way the Tao works on people.

 

The great Mind (Yi) at work.

 

Another example of this blurry transition might be the pracitioner who is still in the process of learning the full extension of the stances in tai chi and so their ligaments and tendons have not reached their full biological potential, maybe they are working through an injury, maybe they stumble into their own ability to relax and breath through those areas resulting in an invigorated healing process....does that mean that the exercise at that point in their practice is not a chi gung? Certainly it is... Certainly it's a process of enlightment, physiologically; the body is learning something new, something that might not be in hereditary memory, but healing is a frequency all beings respond to in someway. Body and Mind are already one. There is no seperation really. Certainly it's a process of pychological enlightment. As we learn what we've been taught to believe about the seperation of mind and body; who knows where the practitioner will make a breakthrough.

 

In another example the practitioner stuggles in the rhythm and timing of their breath w/ the form, surely their breakthrough here could be classified as making the jump to chi gung, due to both the physiological as well as kinesthetic experience of that groove of breath coordination which accompanies wuji. stillness in motion.

 

Yes I agree Tai Chi is already a chi gung from the get go, in our most natural state we have more of the basic elements already in alignment, and for most people it's just a matter of finding the 2 or 3 parts that are out of alignment that are individual to the person; the form and personal interaction takes care of the rest... at that point, their practice becomes chi gung because of the psyco-physiological changes that take place when they practice, because again it's a process of allowing the mind to attune to a physicalogical process that occurs spontaneously and simultaneously w/ the psychological; in the case of tai chi, a natural unfolding of wu ji, yin yang, tai chi and the 8 directions of movement, an opening, transforming, and closing. This is basic to all forms of wuji chigung it should be of no surprize to find chinese evolutionary principles enveloped within the classical styles of china. These are arts with depth and meaning. One of the reasons I chose this classical art as a mdeium to devote time to. A practice of letting go, not hanging onto a set of rules, but letting go of what you percieve as you to become more natural in ordinary movement. Of wu ji, psychophysiological center zero point awareness. A focal point of proportional undercurrents.

 

The combination of all the elements of proper practice can't be accomplished like a laundary list. No matter how simple or complex the list. You have to let go of the list. Yet you seemingly have to put them together somehow, inside yourself, all the natural attributes of being human, what is human most naturally, let go and be yourself, a friend or mentor helps, a teacher helps, emulates and reflects; The sum of the whole is greater then that of the individual parts. A teacher helps a person remember their most basic attributes, helps to shed what is not essential. Sometimes you have to take yourself entirely out of the equation of practice in order to do it right; to let go of judgement of yourself. Then your free to see the natural beauty in all forms. The proportional boundaries of harmonies sings.

 

This struggle between the orthodoxy of form and the praxis of formlessness seems to be characteristic of using form and example to demonstrate something as subtle as the psycho-physiological state the practitioner experiences during tai chi or chi gung practice (or fighting / ie tao of jeet kune do ala bruce lee). Yet directly as a result of his/her attunement w/ these most basic elements of movement practice, the pracitioner experiences... something more then what is observed.

 

This is all probably the reason why Oral Transmission is still regarded as the only really effect Way, for healers and martial artists alike.

 

I digress. A long time ago.

 

Chi Gung in comparison to tai chi focuses immediately on the psycho physiological shifts that result from alignment w/ the most natural principles of the human state of being. (wuji) The resulting forms being a continuosly wonderful kailadascpe window of rainbows expressed by the human physiology associated with altered states of consciousness.

 

Now the funny thing about chi gung seems that if your primary wuji alignments are not maintained; it becomes a physical practice; you know, struggling w/ a shake there or an ache here, but in order to engage the chi in the alignment of wuji is regulated through the breath, and finally the mind alone. "Song". Synergetic balanced integrity of tension and relaxation.

 

The first exercise I engaged in which produced this sensation of work w/o work, tension & relaxation, sung, was holding a 2.5lb bar bell weight 45 deg looking thru the hole to the corner of the ceiling w/ the instr. to place my mind into the corner by hanging the weight on a hook in the corner; dan tien breath/relax in response to load stress. Duration: personal limit

 

After approx 3 days practicing various lengths of time not exceeding 3 min I structurally maintained wuji at which time I engaged in dan tien breathing at precisely the same time as the previous walls shut me down.

 

Here I will EMPHASIZE my internal process wasn't a laundary list, it was an inquiry process taking many internal angles and dialogs.... resulting in Stillness... had I not the stillness reference by my mentor I'm not sure if my intent would have created the same effects... so I call what I've been taught Taoist because that was it's source from the beggining.... I digress again... the mental-physical circuit created by the doingness of the small weight exercise must be a form of biofeedback, the psychological workthroughs that are present while performing "gung" are worthy of note; i say biofeedback because of the mental mirroring of physiological breakthroughs; and the resulting 'unifying' experiences which accompany.

 

But back at that first real wall with that small little weight there was a combination of those internal elements resulting in a kind of internal physical bubbling that seemed to break something loose resulting in a psycho-physiological change I would most closely assribe to the 'coming up' portion of any hallucinogenic experience i had read about, but without hallucinations, instead resulting in increased kinesthetic perceptions. That weight got lighter. Was this the second wind of the runners, the zone of the extreme sportsters, the mountain high of the hermits?

 

After I learned more about Taoist breathing I realized these experiences are really body and mind alignment and attunment process, the two becoming one. It's not just in your mind, or just your body. Body and Mind are not seperate, we are taught to 'believe' that. Perhaps the Heros Journey starts at that point of realization.

 

 

if it is done according to tai chi principles you will get the desired results.

Otherwise it is dance or exercise.

 

The "desired results" here being the resultant cultivation effect for the practitioner? iE Preparation For, and Conduction Of Chi Circulation? Internal Transformational exercises of the Taoists?

 

<nod>

 

The same could be said for other qi gongs. If they are not done properly you

won't get the desired results.

 

<nodnod> Or perhaps... undesired results... like some of the HT threads reflect... I'm curious here about Karmic connections of practitioners, has anyone experienced phenomenon they believe is related to the "doings" of practitioners they have trained with... strange tagent topic sorry.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Spectrum

[Cameron]

*post edited twice

 

Good luck in your internal martial arts training.

[freeform]

In cybernetics (study of 'systems') we can have an 'open system' and we can have a 'closed system' -

 

A closed system involves having (lets say) definite information that is being passed on through generations... information in closed systems tends to degrade exponentially, especially if the transfer of information is word of mouth, a rather inefficient medium...

 

An open system is charachterised by an exponential growth in information... information is passed on from generation to generation but is constantly being added to and transformed...

 

most people assume that Tai Chi and many of the other Taoist arts belong to a closed system... so there is this scarcity mentaility going on - that there are only a few people with the knowledge and it's unavailable to most... And there are all these schools and teachers that have 'the true' information that they withold from the rest of us.

 

I would suggest that Taoist arts are part of an open system... the information is available to each of us in each moment. The system is based on the natural way of things and can be seen everywhere... The ancient Hawaiians had a remarkably similar system to the Taoists, and as far as I know they've had no contact with each other... ofcourse to tap into this information requires getting out of our own way - not an easy task, but a simple one...

 

Once, when I was peeling an orange, I experienced the whole of the universe in the orange and in the act of peeling it... I saw the truth of how consciousness, physicality and the universe creates itself in every moment and this can relate back to my cultivation practice... today, for example I was flexing a 1metre long, metal ruler and suddenly 'understood' (physiologically, not mentally) how counterforce breathing works.

 

Tai Chi was designed to create these kinds of learning opportunities... but people tend to over-complicate things and get in their own way... I suggest that if you go in deep enough into any action you can glean profound lessons - whether Tai Chi, Bagua, standing, sitting, playing guitar, flexing a ruler, peeling an orange - if we're present we can learn and progress spiritually in every moment...

[thaddeus]

Not when you consistantly engage in push hands practice. How does that lie? How can you be misinformed by someone getting out of the way of your push? What about when you realize if you relax your breath to harmonize with the movement and something naturally profound happens? This does not take away from the physicallity of the practice. Tai Chi is part of the rich physical culture of china, including paired exercises. It should be engaged in as eagerly as any other form of cultivation.

Hi spectrum, you made alot of good points. I wanted to focus in on this one, not that it has anything to do with chigung. But overall, I think basically you're saying that when you're taught to use your breath in the form, that's the begining of cultivation. Which I agree, I just think that Taiji doesn't teach you to go much farther--it's really a fighting system and it's historical use is for fighting..but anyway, your push hands comment is quite true. This observation led Hong Jung Shen to 'change' the form to better reflect it's actual application. He felt the way people do the form and the way they use it are different. But back to your comment, yeah, it's true, so one *should* see people who practice taichi in linear movements or without using the waist, start to move correctly in the form after doing push hands. But they don't. And it's mostly because push hands the way it's practiced by 99.99% of everyone is just BS. Many people are under the delusion that push hands is fighting instead of the principles you're supposed to be practicing in push hands as fighting. And sadly, most people have no real concept of actually using the waist. I know because doing it for many years, it's still difficult, and I haven't met anyone except for a master that can do it. So it should never be underestimated as something simple to do and 'yeah I do that.' In sum, I agree there should be only one way to actually move correctly. The differences we see out there are from incorrect practice..and that's a really tough nut to crack, I'm very jaded now because I followed so many systems that turned out to be nothing. I'm grateful for the lessons learned, but it's an interesting journey.

The first exercise I engaged in which produced this sensation of work w/o work, tension & relaxation, sung, was holding a 2.5lb bar bell weight 45 deg looking thru the hole to the corner of the ceiling w/ the instr. to place my mind into the corner by hanging the weight on a hook in the corner; dan tien breath/relax in response to load stress. Duration: personal limit

This is an interesting practice. I know you mentioned it before..where did you learn it?

T

[Coderiffics]

Before the guys thread is reduced to a highlight of various tai chi personalities within the style I'd like to point out something that might help.

Thanks, although watching the exchange is interesting, also.

Wu Ji, Yin Yang, Tai Chi, I Ching; these are the constants in Chinese Taoist philosophy. In reference to movement and cultivation they act as helpful reference in finding the paths between the reference points of the forms... acting as a foundation for the patterning of all the movements.... weight shifting, body alignment (structure), breath; these are the points in which a practitioner finds themself within or without "wuji" during "tai chi" ; or stillness while in motion... motion while in stillness.

One of the things that prompted my post about this was seeing references here that to teach Tai Chi without teaching breathing isn't valuable. The school I'm studying in specifically avoids teaching breathing.

In reference to the esoteric:

Have any of your teachers talked about how tai chi turns into chi gung? Has your tai chi instruction included push hands and standing meditation pre or post practice? Have any of them spoke of cultivation or circulation of chi and associated any of those "feelings" with that?

Of the different teachers you've trained which forms of tai chi have you studied?

I've only studied one form so far, which appears to be a hybrid of Yang style Tai Chi and Lo Kup taught exclusively by the organization I've joined. They are a very widespread, decades-old organization, with thousands of members, but their focus seems on the health benefits of Tai Chi, rather than the cultivation link.

[林愛偉]

Taiji Quan without understanding why its called Taiji Quan will result in form practice...only "Quan", fist.

There is a reason why its called Taiji Quan. Its not just a name of a fighting style, soft, slow, abrupt movements.

If the teachers haven't said anything, they either do't know themselves, or are deciding not to teach too much too soon...or to certain people.

 

There is Shenlong Taiji Quan Association in Taiwan led by Master Guo. Very skilled man, disciple of Grand Master Zheng Man Qing.

 

Taiji Quan in and of itself is Qigong cultivation. If one is not told how to use it, it is only a fist form not Taiji Fist.

 

 

Peace,

Ai Wei

[Spectrum]

... I think basically you're saying that when you're taught to use your breath in the form, that's the begining of cultivation. Which I agree, I just think that Taiji doesn't teach you to go much farther--it's really a fighting system ...

 

Precisely. Breathing however simple it sounds is the start of cultivation. However, TaiJi is in reality a fighting system, but a rather curious one (it's Chinese afterall) in so far as the principles can be applied macro or micro scopically... externally & internally.

 

This observation led Hong Jung Shen to 'change' the form to better reflect it's actual application. He felt the way people do the form and the way they use it are different.

 

I heard this about the Dong (Tung) style as well. There are some sublte diffs in Dong and Yang that a quick glance will miss.

 

... so one *should* see people who practice taichi in linear movements or without using the waist, start to move correctly in the form after doing push hands. But they don't. And it's mostly because push hands the way it's practiced by 99.99% of everyone is just BS. Many people are under the delusion that push hands is fighting instead of the principles you're supposed to be practicing in push hands as fighting.

 

<note on Yang / Chen / Sun variation on realization of spherical relationships.>

 

And sadly, most people have no real concept of actually using the waist. I know because doing it for many years, it's still difficult, and I haven't met anyone except for a master that can do it.

 

I would also note here that there is the integration of the structural aspect, (using the core instead of the edges) and also timing. The integration can be a long road that can be suddenly turned around with personal revelations.... and at other times people seem to carry bad habits around with them for years!

 

I've pushed w/ people who have poor structure but great timing and you can't push them over, also met people w/ great structure and poor timing and pushing was just a struggle... my favorite people to push w/ are those that have a sound structure and enough sensitivity that if you feel "pressure" and you release it they don't fall over, just smooth fluid transitions.

 

A good demonstration of this solid/fluid ability is to have your friend press against your forearm... HARD... you resist w/ peng, w/ your internal frame; when they suddenly release, your arm should not move... no overcompensation, no over reaction....you'r arm stays put, relaxed, it doesn't fly out in front of you.... this type of sensitivity is wonderful to practice push hands w/ !!!

 

So it should never be underestimated as something simple to do and 'yeah I do that.'

 

Preach it. I feel the same way. Should not be underestimated.... and w/ your comments about the proper perspective of push hands NOT being fighting... shouldn't be overestimated either...

 

In sum, I agree there should be only one way to actually move correctly. The differences we see out there are from incorrect practice..and that's a really tough nut to crack, I'm very jaded now because I followed so many systems that turned out to be nothing. I'm grateful for the lessons learned, but it's an interesting journey.

 

This is an interesting practice. I know you mentioned it before..where did you learn it?

 

My first mentor in Quan. He recieved from his teacher the same. The key is placing your mind on the hook and constantly seeking zero point center w/ the breath. (wuji)

 

Spectrum

 

(will edit later today: tai chi style refs)

[tumoessence]

It is my understanding that tai chi is qi gong. It does not turn into qigong.

if it is done according to tai chi principles you will get the desired results.

Otherwise it is dance or exercise.

The same could be said for other qi gongs. If they are not done properly you

won't get the desired results.

 

 

You may enjoy this little paragraph on the relation of tai chi to chi gongclassical tai chi

Scroll down to the question on the role of mind in tai chi.

Bill

[Mal]

classical tai chi

 

Nice link, I quite enjoyed :

"The fact is that the knowledge cycle of learning the classical Tai Chi to understand its eventual consequences is very long. To learn the Tai Chi form takes several years to be proficient. To test the effectiveness of what has been learned in actual martial art application takes another few years. To confirm what the health implications are, especially during older age, requires a human generation"

 

I recently asked my teacher "out of the Yoga that I do in the morning (only since November) and the Tong Long and the body weight exercises that I do in the afternoon, Tai Chi is the one that seems not to be giving me huge noticeable benefits, especially compared to the Tong Long Chi Gungs"

 

His response was "Try applying the chi in Tai Chi and have a slightly lower stance and you

will feel the difference" I have been learning Tai Chi with my teacher since October 2002 and it was only last year that he corrected our forms and started us focusing on "chi" The form certanly felt different after that correction last year but the journey isn't finished yet

[Spectrum]

"The fact is that the knowledge cycle of learning the classical Tai Chi to understand its eventual consequences is very long. To learn the Tai Chi form takes several years to be proficient. To test the effectiveness of what has been learned in actual martial art application takes another few years. To confirm what the health implications are, especially during older age, requires a human generation"

 

This is the stark naked truth before me.

 

I recently asked my teacher "out of the Yoga that I do in the morning (only since November) and the Tong Long and the body weight exercises that I do in the afternoon, Tai Chi is the one that seems not to be giving me huge noticeable benefits, especially compared to the Tong Long Chi Gungs"

 

What are the Tong Long Chi Gungs like? Its interesting you mention yoga here because I've recently been having some conversations w/ someone close about the nature of the yoga floor routines being preps for the standing sequences in the main styles. When considering the likeness of the central transition of Snake Creeps Down to the Triangle; the body wisdom inherent in each is obviously principly connected.

 

His response was "Try applying the chi in Tai Chi and have a slightly lower stance and you

will feel the difference"

 

Thats it. Your teacher understands the proportional relationships of stance to upper body movement. I've seen it often mentioned on some Yi Quan forums that sinking the stance actually suspends the arms through synergetically related long chain muscle groups. The physiological changes that occur with how the rubber bands of the body transition load and weight is at it's most potential in Wu Ji.

 

Wu Ji has really produced an interest in stances for me; the idea that a stance is just a bookmark of power release in a transitional plane means that a form isn't a series of stops, the form is a series of smooth transitions of power gathering and release. The stances allow that smooth plane to be travelled across so the whip can snap so beautifully.

 

If you systematically divide your stances starting from a center plum line, a number of natural stances will arrise, at positions that might resemble natural boundary lines around a common center. As soon as the feet are positioned outside the shoulders the kua or lower bow opens. These natural proportions are also adopted while performing the form so the stances say in the yang style have a full look but are nicely grounded thru the all the transitions by their stance. All good alignment starts in the feet. I like the way your teachers style sounds. It does sound like a long time to an external martial artist but widening your stance does change the whole thing. Arn't there three traditional heigths to the stances? The proportions for each being found w/ 1-2-3 measurments of 45 deg foot pivots. Stance work is very long term and takes a while to get a good balance between strength and flexibility. All stance work will aid health into old age. The Chinese consider the legs the second heart.

 

This is a great thread.

[evZENy]

My humble opinion - not only Tai Chi leads to "cultivation". But there is no other reason to do Tai Chi.

If your school / teacher does not teach you how to cultivate and use your internal energy - change the school.

[Mal]

[Ian]

 

 

There is Shenlong Taiji Quan Association in Taiwan led by Master Guo. Very skilled man, disciple of Grand Master Zheng Man Qing.

 

 

Do you mean this chap: "Grandmaster Gou Kong Jie"?

 

Cos he's in England just now.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Ian

[林愛偉]

Do you mean this chap: "Grandmaster Gou Kong Jie"?

 

Cos he's in England just now.

 

 

Nope. Master Guo Cheng Wu

 

:-)

[Smile]

Jeffrey Yuen said as the taiji practice progresses, one will integrate spiritual cultivation with it. He also pointed that there are specific signs when the 3 dantian open up one by one that actually change the way you do the form. Those changes are specific, not random.

 

BTW, whoever is in Italy, Jeffrey has a workshop on Alchemical Qi Gong on April 27.

 

From my point of you, taiji is just an extention of my meditation practice, a moving one-pointed concentration, if you will.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Smile