David Shen Verdesi Press Release

[Spectrum]

It is the same with Gong Fu. You don't give your skills to those who lack the compassion for others, you hold it back and make it hard to get. THis makes the seeker humble, and or puts them in the place of mind to drop ego, and change their life. Not all , but some do.

 

Nicely put.

[mantis]

what an interesting topic. hopefully when i am older and more established i can visit china and study.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Secrecy is really for those who lack the faith, and or Virtue to fully uphold teachings which result

in spiritual powers. THis is another reason why the Buddha did not publicize powers, and told his disciples not

to publicize any power whatsoever.

 

People look at powerful beings as gods, and mistake ability for wisdom. This is why certain things are reserved

for some and not for others.

 

It is the same with Gong Fu. You don't give your skills to those who lack the compassion for others, you hold it back and make it hard to get. THis makes the seeker humble, and or puts them in the place of mind to drop ego, and change their life. Not all , but some do.

 

Daoist and Buddhists hold to secrecy in certain manners of cultivation unless the disciple shows high virtue, good moral and respect for living beings.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Aiwei

 

I am usually against secrecy, or perhaps more to the point secrecy for egotistical reasons. Perhaps synchronicity is at play Aiwei, but your words bring to mind a passage I recently read in Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming:

 

3-37 The Thesis of Oral Transmission of Life and Death in the Cavities

 

"The cavities include those cavities which, when attacked can remain alive or cause death. However, they must be taught orally. Why? One, because it is hard to learn; two because it is related to life and death; three because it depends on the personal learning talent. First, do not teach to those who are not loyal and filial. Second, do not teach to those who do not have a good martial foundation. Third, do not teach to those whose hearts are not righteous. Fourth, do not teach to those who are rude and careless. Fifth, do not teach to those who are too proud of themselves and do not respect others. Sixth, do not teach to those who know politeness without benevolance. Seventh. do not teach to those who change their mind all of the time (i.e. cannot be trusted). Eigth, do not teach those who obtain easily and also lose easily. These are the eight types of people who cannot be taught; do not even mention teaching to those outlaws. If a person can be taught, then teach him the secrets orally. Pass to those who know loyalty, filial piety, and appreciation; to those whose hearts and Qi are harmonious and peaceful; to those who could keep the Dao without losing it; to those who can last from beginning to end. If a person is able to last from beginning until the end, without changing and maintain his original thinking then it is obvious that you should teach him the total great applications. These rules are the same in the past and also in the future, pass them down generation by generation all should follow as such. Alas! Don't you know that there are many gangsters in martial society."

[Wayfarer64]

This has become an interesting thread after all...

 

Just because we know things that others wish to know - and vice-versa- these potential natural exchanges may be frought with dangers...

 

Lessons need to be learned before progress can be made...

 

there is a "critical path" in this progression... One step at a time...

 

COMPASSION is the guiding force in my opinion -without a kind and gentle heart - all that one will receive is rancor from anyone who has true wisdom to offer-

 

No one who is on a path towards enlightenment wishes to lead. as such -just to be a good example, perhaps.. nor to be lead astray....

 

Nothing is - nor should it be - easy in these matters.

 

as i said befor here it is The Razors Edge we walk... ( & yes please do read Maughams' book by that name if you have not yet) --

 

peace & love -Pat

[Cameron]

This is an interesting issue.

 

From one point of view, it's interesting to see this "leaked" material and seems pretty harmless. Just like..cool...there is a high level Master burning things with his energy. From another point of view we know dealing with the David Shen crowd that this can't be good for them. It is based on respect and secrecy and everthing being very hush hush and now you have one of the Masters-who I am guessing doesn't appreciate being put on Youtube-doing demonstraitons for the whole world to see.

 

What I am so looking forward to in studying with Lama Dorje that you have what looks like a super high level Master openly teaching and not holding back anything. I hope this will be the trend more and more in the future.

 

Maybe from that perspective it was inevitable that this kind of thing came out. Like Lama Dorje says in his book it is time for the west to learn from the east.

 

The only thing is..is it really that secret? I mean..didn't Thomas Cleary translate "Opening Dragon Gate", the biogrophy of Wang Liping, years ago?

 

From what I can gather speaking with David Shen's students and reading posts on there discussion board Wang Liping is the most highly advanced of all of them. He is like the top of all those Masters David Shen stidies with. If Thomas Cleary already wrote a book about him and people in the west have studied with him-wasn't there a recent post about some woman student of his in Europe? Is it really that big of a secret.

 

I understand that it's probably just not respectful for them to download footage of these guys all over the internet. I guess that is aprt of what made the Magus of Java go back underground. But if your opening yourself to western people coming with there video cameras and filming you isn't this the kind of thing that would happen?

 

Anyway..it looks like they are bringing some people here next year to teach there practice.

 

If Sifu Max is going to be as awesome as I think he is I will most likely stick with that but that is good they are planning a US retreat for people who can't go to Europe or China.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Cameron

[VeeCee]

Maybe from that perspective it was inevitable that this kind of thing came out. Like Lama Dorje says in his book it is time for the west to elarn from the east.

 

My POV is if you don't want something leaked out, then don't allow people to record it. In this electronic age, people pass around info that they think is cool and worth sharing. It is no surprise that it eventually ended up on YouTube. No disrepect meant to the master. It is just my .02

 

V.

[Oolong Rabbit]

 

What I am so looking forward to in studying with Lama Dorje that you have what looks like a super high level Master openly teaching and not holding back anything. I think this is probably going to be the trend more and more in the future.

 

 

We are on the same page here. I also think that students tend to reflect the character of their teacher, and Mantra has been totally open, and tried to answer our many questions as honestly and sincerely as imaginable. Without pointing fingers and making generalizations, I see some egoism and guru worship behaviour in some of the other schools and that's just not my cup of tea.

[Pero]

I think Cleary translated the book, not write it.

[Smile]

I think the post on youtube was with "official" intent. Otherwise the videos would be already taken down, but instead there are actual explanations of what's going on in comments.

 

I don't think leaks like that would hurt David or his masters. They have a good method and things like that don't just go away.

[Cameron]

We are on the same page here. I also think that students tend to reflect the character of their teacher, and Mantra has been totally open, and tried to answer our many questions as honestly and sincerely as imaginable. Without pointing fingers and making generalizations, I see some egoism and guru worship behaviour in some of the other schools and that's just not my cup of tea.

 

 

I should say I hope that will be the trend in the future. Sounds like that will be the case with Sean D announcing that there will be a US seminar next year.

 

Anyway..may we all find the practice to help us on our paths...looks like Kunlun might be the one I was looking for.

[林愛偉]

I am usually against secrecy, or perhaps more to the point secrecy for egotistical reasons. Perhaps synchronicity is at play Aiwei, but your words bring to mind a passage I recently read in Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming:

 

3-37 The Thesis of Oral Transmission of Life and Death in the Cavities

 

"The cavities include those cavities which, when attacked can remain alive or cause death. However, they must be taught orally. Why? One, because it is hard to learn; two because it is related to life and death; three because it depends on the personal learning talent. First, do not teach to those who are not loyal and filial. Second, do not teach to those who do not have a good martial foundation. Third, do not teach to those whose hearts are not righteous. Fourth, do not teach to those who are rude and careless. Fifth, do not teach to those who are too proud of themselves and do not respect others. Sixth, do not teach to those who know politeness without benevolance. Seventh. do not teach to those who change their mind all of the time (i.e. cannot be trusted). Eigth, do not teach those who obtain easily and also lose easily. These are the eight types of people who cannot be taught; do not even mention teaching to those outlaws. If a person can be taught, then teach him the secrets orally. Pass to those who know loyalty, filial piety, and appreciation; to those whose hearts and Qi are harmonious and peaceful; to those who could keep the Dao without losing it; to those who can last from beginning to end. If a person is able to last from beginning until the end, without changing and maintain his original thinking then it is obvious that you should teach him the total great applications. These rules are the same in the past and also in the future, pass them down generation by generation all should follow as such. Alas! Don't you know that there are many gangsters in martial society."

 

 

Excellent! Now this doesn't certify if the teacher has the goods or not! hahahaha

I really do hold close to the ideal of virtue and moral. If the students show no virtue and moral, no compassion towards the next living being, then the teacher may not be far behind them in such. I wouldn't study with a being if he lacked virtue and moral. It is not good influence.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited September 17, 2007 by 林愛偉

[sunshine]

Good day 'bums,

 

I very much hope that those who know that I am a Foundation student can put that aside for a moment, and read the following knowing it comes from me, Harry, "sunshine", and is not much different from what I would have said long before entering the training or knowing about it.

 

All this talk about "secrecy" and "things leaking" has been overexxagrated to great extent... and a lot of what followed totally misses the point, from my humble point of view. It is never possible to satisfy anybody:

 

the idea VeeCee that if you don'T want something "to leake out not to allow recording... because..." might be pointing at something obvious. But it is not. I will come to that in a second, but first want to say: Think about a student telling: "Look. These teachers did not even allow me to take notes"... What do you think would be made of it? More talk about how seceret, egoistic, guru-like this "crew" is. Again. Not everybody can be satisfied.

 

By training I am a Doc. If I enter that profession I, without necessarily stating it by any official means, agree to a rule!:

To keep the information about a patient as confidential as I am required to. We record everything in minute detail... and all that could "leake out"... and STILL: we are required to keep our mouthes shut and not talk about patients with full name in private circles... in a hospital in Germany it is clear that if somebody has HIV alll those that work there have to know. But telling the bed neighbour would be clearly breaking a rule!

 

Is that in any way a secrecy one has to critisize???

 

If I enter whatever job that deals with certain type of data I am required to keep it "out of the public ear and eye"... it is a very simple day to day requirement and it has nothing much to do with belonging to a spiritual group or not.

 

My teacher in a specific style of Korean hand acupuncture told me the last day: "Harry. Be clear about it. You are not allowed to teach what I taught you. You are missing the experience to fully comprehend what I taught you..." For very good reasons she required that I am not spreading knowledge I do not yet really understand and know to use well.

 

Nothing good can come from that.

 

My teacher in Primodrial Energy Activation and Transcendence: Zivorad Slavinski clearly gave permission to teach clients certain processes, while others he doesn't yet even teach to his students because he feels them not to be there yet to utilize them properly. Very good reasons he has for that.

 

And my teacher Oleg teaches many things openly without putting too many "rules" or "restrictions" on anything... but at his Karma Yoga seminar it is clearly known that any kind of recording is a "nono" and that one is required to keep the practice to oneself and not to show or teach anybody.

 

There are reasons for all this. It is easy to say from the point of view of an outside:

"come on: it should be this way and that way" etc.

 

Not everything taught to people is without danger and the idea that you have to have to give people every tool of whatever kind, because it is their responsibility etc. is, in my humble opinion, laying the first steps towards destruction.

 

It makes sense not to teach everything openly.

 

Aside from all that. And I have stated it somewhere else already. We are dealing with a different culture here. It is not even easy to understand all manners involved in the different social classes of ones own culture. How is it even feasible to have the expectation that a country with a totally different background has to apply to our own wishes and believes and convictions?

 

I had a head doctor who was on a plane somewhere over the Emirates. One muslimic woman suddenly started having her labour pains and he immediately was there to help... he was nearly killed by the husband of that fully "covered" woman. We might think it is silly, that this guy was nuts (the husband)... but actually this head doctor simply did not know about the rules of a different culture. Had he know he would have approached the situation differently. You think he was right to do what he did? Just from his cultural upberaing and point of view! You think the other cultural approach is wrong? It is just different!

 

Those who believe they can approach a culture very different from their own the way they are used to (and judge them with their own standard of rules) should do themselves the favor to read some good books about first encounters...

 

Aside from all that and I have stated it in my blog. This all is not so much about secrecy. It is about an agreement that was broken. Simple as that. All the other deeper implications might be there, but it is only something to focus on and think about if one really knows what it is all about... without the background information it is all unfounded.

 

One thing about Max and Mantra, because their openness has been hinted at... I assume it was not doe to praise them but actually to in a way show the "others" in a bad light. If I got it right even Max hasn't been in the open from the beginning on and even Mantra said that depending on what happens they might go "undercover" again. The way that was argued against Max and Mantra was, with all due respect, not always beneficial... and this alone could have been a reason to make a step back and close the door again. So far they haven't but everybody should be aware that it can anytime.

 

The idea to judge a teacher by his students... ah well: In my humble opinion:

this can only work if one talks about a longer time student... what can one expect from a first year student?

it might work if a student is always watched by the teacher and if this person is belonging to a group of only a few ... it works only to certain extent if the students are spread all over the world and are many... there will always be students that behave out of order...

and one last thing: judging internet personalities is pretty vague. As I first entered the Healing Tao board I thought Plato is a total freak and asshole... for several reasons I know now that this is not quite true...

 

and pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease everybody. Do not judge a group and thereby the members of the group by the impression and ideas you have created in your mind about one or two...

 

 

Harry

[Pero]

Harry, great post!

[Cameron]

I think it is better not to compare different teachers or schools. Especially when you have long time posters like Sunshine who study with a certain school. To compare and say this system or this teacher is better is a little rude I think.

 

We all know how people have presented themselves and there practices on this board .It's pretty obvious stuff. Better to just swim to the practices or teachers your attracted to like a fish in the water and not even bother about these things.

 

To be honest, I had no desire or wish to even talk about David Shen stuff but these things were sort of thrown in our face by whoever posted the Jiang Sifu videos. How could we not discuss it after that?

 

namaste

Edited September 17, 2007 by Cameron

[sunshine]

[DentyDao]

Just a side note; David has decided to make the best of a disagreeable situation and post some explicative comments on the YouTube videos. It doesn't mean he is happy about the situation; we hope they get removed and they may well, but we also understand that things may not happen the way we would like.

 

I would say the main reason we don't want these out there is that is what Shifu Jiang requested. He just prefers the videos remain private and doesn't want his face plastered all over YouTube. We, as his students, just want to respect his wishes here. From an outside perspective, I would say this seems pretty reasonable. If some teacher out there was in a similar situation, I wouldn't have to search very hard to feel simpathic. I mean even if someone's home videos of their family got posted on YouTube without permission, I would understand why that person wouldn't feel comfortable. Anyway, we are trying to turn this into a positive.

 

I would also like to say that Harry does a really good job explaining the reasons for certain things remaining 'secret.' It's not at all that we want to keep people out, as Harry can tell you. It's simply that these practices need to have the experienced eyes of the teacher to correct misunderstanding and protect the student from harming himself or others. I think anyone who attends David's seminars would agree that this material is hard to grasp and requires a concerted effort on the behalf of both teacher and student to really get properly tranmitted.

[lino]

I was commenting in the wrong topic

[Neikung]

I would say the main reason we don't want these out there is that is what Shifu Jiang requested. He just prefers the videos remain private and doesn't want his face plastered all over YouTube.

 

Hi Sean and others in the taobums forums:

I found an article previously published in a Taiwanese newspaper about Shifu Jiang and I'd like to know what all of you think.

While searching for articles about Qigong in China, my friend and I came upon a newspaper clip published in Taiwan (Apple Daily Newspaper) that complained about a Qigong Master.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/flyzenmaster-wi...3&next=1571

The original article (published July 15, 2007) can be found in the Apple Daily web site but access requires registration (in Chinese).

The picture of that article seems to be Sifu Jiang that has appeared with David in Thailand earlier this year http://www.samuiexpress.net/?q=node/397. Here is a rough translation of the story:

 

Basically, the article is about a person in Taiwan complaining to the Apple Daily newspaper that in seeking for a Qigong Master, he became disenchanted after spending NT$ 800,000 (NT$32=US $1) but to learn at the end that the purported "qi" emitted by his Master is nothing but regular electricity generated by Tesla high power coils hidden inside the Master's body.

 

According to the Apple Daily reporter, this person (named Atek) first learned of a powerful Master from a local Qigong Master Zhuang (in GuoXiong city of Taiwan) who demonstrated his electric qi by shocking him. Amazed, he immediately paid NT$12,000 to learn the Qigong techniques from Zhuang. In May 2006, Zhuang organized a group of his disciples (including ATek) to visit their ShiGong in Huang Shan. Zhuang's Shifu is a 43 years-old fifth generation Shaolin GengMen Grandmaster named Zhai Jiang Feng. Shifu Zhai demonstrated many amazing feats, including "taking bad blood using suction cups", "turning ordinary water into sweet elixir", pyrogenesis, breaking stones from a distance etc. Shifu Zhai also sold "Dan" pills that can dissolve away blood blockages for NT$66,000 each. The group ended up spending a total of NT$3 Million to buy 50 pills.

 

Impressed, Atek went back to Huang Shan 3 times a year to learn the amazing "electric" Qigong. In the last visit, however, he was instructed by Shifu Zhai to learn how to withstand high voltage electricity. Confused, Atek demanded explanation. After being sworn not to tell anyone, Atek was told (by Shifu Zhai) that the "electric qi" actually came from a Tesla transformer coils and all other "Qigong" feats are just magic tricks. Atek obtained the electric qi diagram and showed it to the Apple Daily reporter, who confirmed it with an EECS professor from the National Taiwan University. Anyone wearing the Tesla coils pictured in the diagram could emit electricity, the professor said. The professor also told the reporter that one could easily generate fire with a combination of Potassium permanganate and glycerin.

 

The photos show Shifu Jiang and his Taiwan disciple Zhuang. A series of secretly taken photos (1-4) purported showed how ordinary water was turned into sweet elixir when Shifu Zhai's Assistant (on the back) switched the bottle cap with another one containing sugar. After mixing it, the "qi" act supposedly turned the water into something sweet that can cure many different illnesses and prolong life.

The last 2 pictures are punching a patient's skin with a needle (just a hypothetical example) and how patient's "bad blood" was taken out through qi. However, please note that blood naturally forms solid clots through coagulation.

 

 

Neikung

[sunshine]

I am curious... anybody knowing if it were possible at all to safely surgically implant Tesla coils in the body and then utilize it?

 

 

Harry

[mantis]

wow this sure is going to shake the foundation forums ground LOL

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[jan1107]

Believe in yourselve!

 

Namaste...

Edited November 19, 2007 by jan1107

[gendao]

anyhoo... I'm off to get my popcorn in anticipation of the drama to come...

Lol, paging seandenty...

 

I'd like to know if any LSD cultivators on the foundation board have actually attained anything themselves. A reliable self-testimony would add some proof to the pudding.

 

I heard the LSD siddhic displays are quite convincing and that DSV has already attained some abilities...so they would have to all be "in on the scam" too if that's the case. A pretty serious and incredible allegation.

 

Or the other possibility (aside from a simply fabricated accusation) is that only Jiang is a fraud and not a true representative for LSD.

 

Hmmmm...

[freesun]

Or Jiang might even be playing. No one forces him to reveal the truth about himself. Everyone wants proof. But the final "proof" cannot be found externally. Kinda sucks, i know.

 

Lol, paging seandenty...

 

I'd like to know if any LSD cultivators on the foundation board have actually attained anything themselves. A reliable self-testimony would add some proof to the pudding.

 

I heard the LSD siddhic displays are quite convincing and that DSV has already attained some abilities...so they would have to all be "in on the scam" too if that's the case. A pretty serious and incredible allegation.

 

Or the other possibility (aside from a simply fabricated accusation) is that only Jiang is a fraud and not a true representative for LSD.

 

Hmmmm...

[jeffgrove]

If you have a look its actually a Web Log not a Newspaper