David Shen Verdesi Press Release

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Naked Yin Yang Gong??? LOL Couldnt help myself!!!!

[Taoist81]

Yes, I'm aware that Randi has made all kinds of claims about how easy scientists are to fool. But I also take into consideration the fact that Randi himself is not a scientist, he is not talking about strict government funded clinical trials, and he is an individual who spent most of his adult life debunking common Tarot card readers and amature psychics.

 

What I can tell you is that I personally talked to the scientist in Vienna who did the testing and he said, it is not a known molecular structure; it was tested against millions of samples. We are a long way from having published findings, but David wants, with the masters blessing, to get one hundred masters and run tests on them.

 

Honestly, I personally have witnessed enough to open up a little to the possibilities that science is not really a good reflection of reality, so to me it's an after thought; still such things have their place.

Randi didn't just claim scientists were easy to fool, he proved it by fooling some of them. But really that is beside the point, you are right, most of the people who tried out for the "Challenge" have been half wits. And, just for the record, he never claimed to be a scientist, only an illusionist and a skeptic. He does employ/work with scientists though.

Anyway, on to the more interesting stuff... So, the plan is to have the findings published? That would really be an amazing thing. It may be an afterthought for you, but really it would inspire many people, if the findings could be reproduced in multiple settings. Either way, please keep us posted on this will you?

[Buddy]

Since it seems no one has the means to actually go to China to expose this nonsense, I've posted David's invitation over at Empty Flower, where there are folks living there. Denty, why don't you go there and engage in some lively debate with people who have developed real skills and not these phony magic tricks?

[Taoist81]

Since it seems no one has the means to actually go to China to expose this nonsense, I've posted David's invitation over at Empty Flower, where there are folks living there. Denty, why don't you go there and engage in some lively debate with people who have developed real skills and not these phony magic tricks?

Buddy,

You cannot judge the validity of Sean's school based solely on a video posted on an online messageboard. The people you speak of could just as easily be pulling the rug over peoples eyes as could Sean's teachers, or his teachers could be the real deal and your empty flower friends could be the fakes, or they could all be people who have acheived something that most only see in wuxia. Personally anyone who claims supernatural abilities is suspect simply because there are so many convincing frauds out there, convincing at least until you see an illusionist demonstrate how a particular trick was done. But, any logical skeptic has to point out that lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, so....we'll all just have to see what comes of the research that Sean claims is being undertaken, if, of course, he is telling the truth (he is some guy on a messageboard that few of us have ever met personally, so we can't know for sure if he's honest). Until then there is no need to pick at his teacher, just because someone else hasn't been videoed to expose their potential trickery.

[sunshine]

so....we'll all just have to see what comes of the research that Sean claims is being undertaken, if, of course, he is telling the truth...

 

 

I wonder if anybody actually noticed what I said. I quote myself:

 

"For those who want to get the proof and have a scientist at hand who is truly interested in taking part in future studies, let me know and I will try to arrange contacts. Can not promise anything but I will try. Two things: travel costs etc. to China are to be paid themselves. An open minded scientist is needed who is interested in proper study-conditions but not intersted in just wanting to disprove things. Is that fair?"

 

[Taoist81]

I wonder if anybody actually noticed what I said. I quote myself:

 

"For those who want to get the proof and have a scientist at hand who is truly interested in taking part in future studies, let me know and I will try to arrange contacts. Can not promise anything but I will try. Two things: travel costs etc. to China are to be paid themselves. An open minded scientist is needed who is interested in proper study-conditions but not intersted in just wanting to disprove things. Is that fair?"

 

That's not what Sean said though. Sean claims that scientists have already examined the magic sifu water (no disrespect intended, it is only that no name has been given for the "substance") in a mass spectrometer and that David is already arranging for more studies to be undertaken, pending approval from his master. It would be nice to see for ourselves, but most of us have to rely on those more specially trained with access to the proper equipment. Also, again, in regards to testing the masters themselves or observing the feats of magical power, a scientist would not be the best person for the job, unless they were also trained extensively in the arts of sleight and other forms of illusion. The scientists are quite adept for the type of testing that Sean mentioned, that is, testing a previously unknown element. It would be completely falsifiable and nearly impossible to fake, assuming, of course, that multiple un-biased scientists (of the chemistry and physics types) were able to test said element. It would be a major "score" for the mystic/religious world to have a new element or chemical added to our understanding of the world wrought by a Taoist master. Really though, for a scientist or other skeptic tester to stick to the scientific method, their first order of business would be to try to disprove the claims. If they can, it is fake, if it is real they won't be able to disprove it because it would be real.

[joeblast]

Site is giving a database error at the moment, but here is an article that was referenced:

http://www.samuiexpress.net/?q=node/397

[sunshine]

Really though, for a scientist or other skeptic tester to stick to the scientific method, their first order of business would be to try to disprove the claims. If they can, it is fake, if it is real they won't be able to disprove it because it would be real.

 

I ask of a true scientist to be openminded! If he wants to disprove things the way a scientist approaches the subject at hand will lead her/him to disprove... same for all other experts... typical problem of studies... "observer-effect" (actually not the proper term for it)...

 

 

Harry

Edited November 21, 2007 by sunshine

[Gerard]

I would take with a pinch of salt of what a so-called Chinese Taoist master has to say. Remember real Taoists don't go public and LYING is part of Chinese culture. John Chang paid the price for going public.

 

The main character of Chronicles of Tao apparently was born in New York.

 

About Wang Liping, who knows? Anyway Thomas Cleary is a Taoist himself and has been studying with a master of the Complete Reality School for many years now so he knows what is writing about.

 

There are living masters in China (and other parts of Asia) who are not teaching at all and are capable of those feats. They don't lie because they don't go public and never show anything in public. They have achieved Yang Shen bodies and are centenarians.

[Gerard]

I would take with a pinch of salt of what a so-called Chinese Taoist master has to say. Remember real Taoists don't go public and LYING is part of Chinese culture. John Chang paid the price for going public.

 

The main character of Chronicles of Tao apparently was born in New York.

 

About Wang Liping, who knows? Anyway Thomas Cleary is a Taoist himself and has been studying with a master of the Complete Reality School for many years now so he knows what is writing about.

 

There are living masters in China (and other parts of Asia) who are not teaching at all and are capable of those feats. They don't lie because they don't go public and never show anything in public. They have achieved Yang Shen bodies and are centenarians.

[gendao]

I would take with a pinch of salt of what a so-called Chinese Taoist master has to say. Remember real Taoists don't go public and LYING is part of Chinese culture. John Chang paid the price for going public.

 

The main character of Chronicles of Tao apparently was born in New York.

 

About Wang Liping, who knows? Anyway Thomas Cleary is a Taoist himself and has been studying with a master of the Complete Reality School for many years now so he knows what is writing about.

 

There are living masters in China (and other parts of Asia) who are not teaching at all and are capable of those feats. They don't lie because they don't go public and never show anything in public. They have achieved Yang Shen bodies and are centenarians.

Well, lying is part of COMMUNIST culture - mental opiate for the masses dumped into China (and the world) by those who want to keep us deluded and control us. But no doubt, there's a lot of "con men" hucksters in mainland China right now who are simply desperate for money as a result.

 

My friend has actually met Deng Ming-Dao. I think he said he was in really great physical shape for his age and a really strong martial artist. I don't really know what his level is though. And I don't think he claims his books are non-fiction.

 

I am also sure many of the highest masters, we in the public don't see. However, I also think that now is a unique time in history where many are coming out of the woodwork.

[Taoist81]

I ask of a true scientist to be openminded! If he wants to disprove things the way a scientist approaches the subject at hand will lead her/him to disprove... same for all other experts... typical problem of studies... "observer-effect" (actually not the proper term for it)...

 

 

Harry

Openminded, sure, but the use of occam's razor requires one to look for the simplest explaination. In the case of supernatural phenomenon like transubstatiation, the simplest is trickery, simply because it is more common than "real miracles". Thus, to be truely unbiased, a tester would have to rule out trickery, before declaring a radical reworking of our understanding of the universe. But, yes, open minded would need to be a requirement also. Again, if it is for real, to the extent that Sean speaks of, they wouldn't be able to disprove it no matter how much they "wanted to".

[sunshine]

Openminded, sure, but the use of occam's razor requires one to look for the simplest explaination. In the case of supernatural phenomenon like transubstatiation, the simplest is trickery, simply because it is more common than "real miracles". Thus, to be truely unbiased, a tester would have to rule out trickery, before declaring a radical reworking of our understanding of the universe. But, yes, open minded would need to be a requirement also. Again, if it is for real, to the extent that Sean speaks of, they wouldn't be able to disprove it no matter how much they "wanted to".

 

Okay. Let me simply rephrase what I tried to say, without my personal wish for a specific type of person:

 

You have a physicist, biologist, medical doctor, neurologist at hand who would be truly interested in being part of the study group that will partake in/conduct the studies at hopefully a university in China, let me know and I try to establish contact.

 

 

Harry

[DentyDao]

Gentlemen,

 

The real test is doing the practice and achieving the results for your self. What difference does it make if some scientist or anybody else believes or finds proof? Yes, it a nice feeling and yes, it would be some validation, but life will go on and YOU still won't really know in terms of meaningful 'self' knowledge.

 

So, again, this whole dialogue is meaningless after a certain point. I think it's good to share and get some information out there and maybe correct some of the unskillful views on these matters, but really this is a practice for the few, not the masses. Science will never quantify the human soul and spirit and no scientist ever became enlightened and never will, at least not through the scientific paradigm.

 

 

Buddy,

 

I have read a little over at the empty flower. They live in a different world under a different belief system with different goals. Why go there and start a shit storm, what would be the point? Who cares?

[sheng zhen]

So, again, this whole dialogue is meaningless after a certain point.

 

It is so meaningless it has become interesting... Strange how we can sit so far away from the ones we are talking about, never even met them, and still discuss our opinion about them. I just find it strange...but interesting. Human consciousness and our needs of self-confirmation can be very amuzing. Skeptics or not-skeptics, the same mechanisms of self-confirmation is working, only different perspectives.

 

You have very good points seandenty, I like reading your posts. The fruits of your practice and your good teacher shines through.

 

When it comes to science, it is still only subject to the paradigm created it. Collective consciousness evolves and paradigms changes as evolution goes along. The science we know today is no different than any other religion that tries to define what reality really really is, what is true and not. Why bother with proof? It is only proof of the paradigm it is proved in anyways...it wil be something else in another paradigm.

[forestofsouls]

Gentlemen,

 

The real test is doing the practice and achieving the results for your self. What difference does it make if some scientist or anybody else believes or finds proof? Yes, it a nice feeling and yes, it would be some validation, but life will go on and YOU still won't really know in terms of meaningful 'self' knowledge.

 

What have you achieved?

[DentyDao]

[forestofsouls]

So long story short: trust that LSD is the best because Sean Denty says so. The methods are secret, the masters may or may not play it straight, and individual experiences are not to be shared. No offense to Sean Denty, but why should we simply take your word for it?

 

I find some of this LSD stuff interesting, but it seems so riddled with obscurity and contradictions the way it is presented publicly that I daresay one would have to be quite a fool to give it any credence. Why should any serious seeker pay the outrageous sum for such a teaching that tells you nothing yet demands a lot of sacrifice? This level of siddhi advertising attracts a very specific type of person. I wonder why David and the LSD gang would want the credulous, siddhi-entranced elements coming to their teachings? If I were a sage, I would want the opposite: the sober, mentally stable and well grounded practitioner. The former will stay until something else catches their eye. The latter will stay much longer, perhaps even to the end.

 

Personally, this is why I prefer Buddhism, especially Theraveda: no games, no tricks. They are up front with their techniques, don't charge much, and tell you the real secret is dedicated practice. The measuring stick isn't whether one can light a shirt on fire, but whether one is leading a nobler, happier life.

[DentyDao]

Edited November 21, 2007 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

For anyone interested: Again, here are some really good indepth resources that have been written on Lei Shan Dao and Long Men Pai. If you want to take a serious look at these methods and the lineages themselves, you would really benifit by reading these two books:

 

Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard by Kaiguo Chen, Zheng Shunchao

David is actually rewriting this book which is a biography of his main teacher Wang Li Ping, who is btw not Lei Shan Dao, although Lei Shan Dao is one of the lines he is a lineage holder of.

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal by Kostas Danaos (aka Kostas Dervenise).

David is still a non practicing student of John Chang and one of the few westerners still welcome in Java by John.

 

That's really my best advice if you want to explore these paths. I'm just a student, so it's not really my place to go around 'converting people,' just to say, the best way to find out about these practices is to begin with these books and then actually go and study the methods, if you felt so inclined.

 

David gave me permission to write a short biography of his life this year, so we will see how it evolves; maybe I will come up with something informative that will provide more insight for people.

Edited November 21, 2007 by seandenty

[Guest sykkelpump]

sean,what exactly does david teach? Is it some special form,breathing,meditation or some type of zhang zuang.

What makes his system so good?

[Smile]

Personally, this is why I prefer Buddhism, especially Theraveda: no games, no tricks. They are up front with their techniques, don't charge much, and tell you the real secret is dedicated practice. The measuring stick isn't whether one can light a shirt on fire, but whether one is leading a nobler, happier life.

 

I prefer Vipassana. All donation based and very clear about what the practice is and what to expect.

[DentyDao]

Edited November 24, 2007 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

Edited for lack of seriousness and unnecessary clowning around. Carry on...

Edited November 21, 2007 by seandenty

[Guest sykkelpump]

Sean,thanks for answering.interesting read.I liked what was written about no thougt arising.I belive that is the key for getting the real results