David Shen Verdesi Press Release

[Adam West]

Hey Jan,

 

I am glad you got something out of it! I enjoyed contemplating and writing it. Please feel free to share as you see fit, it's a beautiful thing.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

 

 

 

 

Sean,

 

Good luck to you, I wish you and all of us, all the best in our endeavours in noticing that-which-is.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[joeblast]

How many of you have been on the Foundation board and read what people have to say there?

 

 

Mantis...when Sean or David say that 'your practices' - whatever they may be and to whomever in question - will not get you to the pinnacle of your potential, why are so many so quick to take personal offense at that? None is intended.

 

Neikung...why are you so inclined to believe Atek et al without extending the same fairness to Zhai et al?

[Oolong Rabbit]

How many of you have been on the Foundation board and read what people have to say there?

 

I have frequently. There are a lot of good people there, and a lot of interesting information. I don't particularly like all of the secrecy and guru-worship, but it' Sean's house, so I don't say much.

 

Mantis...when Sean or David say that 'your practices' - whatever they may be and to whomever in question - will not get you to the pinnacle of your potential, why are so many so quick to take personal offense at that? None is intended.

 

Neikung...why are you so inclined to believe Atek et al without extending the same fairness to Zhai et al?

 

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I will throw in my 2 centavos. Take a look at my original comments regarding the clips. Jiang handled and "fluffed" up the shirt both times for no apparent reason. Then after he drops one of them I could swear I see some sleight of hand happening where he pockets something. Also one of the shirts is a fire proof shirt which also burns. Guessing that would be caused by a chemical. Have you seen the clips? This newest information just adds more weight to my original suspicions.

[joeblast]

I didnt see the shirt vid...got a link?

 

The secrecy bit doesnt bug me, really. If they have their honed method and dont want it to be watered down via partial disseminations, I am perfectly ok with that.

Edited November 20, 2007 by joeblast

[Oolong Rabbit]

I didnt see the shirt vid...got a link?

 

Whoever put it up pulled it down.

[Smile]

There are a lot of good points from both Sean and Adam. Personally I'm closer to what Adam says for many reasons and not because of money. We can not fit everyone on the same path but as Adam pointed out, all traditions point at the same type of methods of training and at the end, a teacher, destiny, karma, merit and amount of personal dedication will all play their role in person's spiritual progress. There are way too many variables to say what type of training could be the most beneficial for a certain person at that point in their life. A master with wisdom can see it. Or one has to listen patiently to their inner calling and intuition.

 

Most usually look for siddhis and over time recognize the signs of spiritual development not related to siddhis. Compassion for all sentient beings is a very good sign. Wisdom of dealing with the mundane world is another good sign that is not based on what is "right" and "wrong" but what is appropriate based on all circumstances and karmic influences without any reliance on the intellectual mind.

 

I'm not trying to say any spiritual school is inferior/superior. Every individual is unique and some are well suited for one method and not the other. And eventually the methods are discarded. What is left? Another Hua-Tou?

Edited November 20, 2007 by Smile

[Neikung]

Neikung...why are you so inclined to believe Atek et al without extending the same fairness to Zhai et al?

I am just trying to get a reasonable explanation for the article. Sean's reasoning that he did this to avoid publicity just does not make any sense to me....he actually got more publicity because of it. It is hard to dismiss Atek so easily because he has so much information, has no obvious motivation to lie and also because of the purported insane amount of $ given for the "dan" pills. On the other hand, I actually think that Zhai's videos which were available briefly in youtube, did look quite convincing (that he has some kind of power).

[rain]

[DentyDao]

Hi Sean,

Sorry to say that your argument that all the Masters have lied to lie to avoid public scrutiny rings hollow to me....I don't see the motivation in this story. As it happens, I know Richard, the guy who went looking for John Chang a few years ago...his story of what happened there is completely opposite of what you wrote in the forum..

The guys name is not Richard, I heard the story from John Chang's close personal student.

[DentyDao]

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Wouldnt David make alot more money once he starts teaching it publicly?

 

Might charge less but get more people!!!

[sunshine]

Wouldnt David make alot more money once he starts teaching it publicly?

 

Might charge less but get more people!!!

 

On the one hand: He was/is teaching publicly! On the other hand: he is not interested in too many students for fine reasons!

 

 

For the rest of the discussion:

 

Isn't it mysterious how the wheels turn?

 

At the beginning the voices were raised for why genuine teachers keep people outside by charging a lot of money.

 

Then the voices were raised that they are only interested in powers and that it is not a genuine path at all.

 

Then there is the discussion about that the powers are no real powers at all and all is fake...

 

Did I leave out any steps? Probably.

 

I ask you girls and guys something. Even if you were to prove that the powers are real. Would it help you to know if the path is genuine and leads you to enlightenment and liberation?

 

For those who want to get the proof and have a scientist at hand who is truly interested in taking part in future studies, let me know and I will try to arrange contacts. Can not promise anything but I will try. Two things: travel costs etc. to China are to be paid themselves. An open minded scientist is needed who is interested in proper study-conditions but not intersted in just wanting to disprove things. Is that fair? The question of touching the shirt or not should be taken care of in the future. The disbelief because of that is one of the reasons why that video shouldn't have been made public. Only doubts get nourished, not belief.

 

Adam. Your thoughts were well put... but in all fairness. That was the voice of one cultural position speaking about another cultural position... it is a pretty limited point of view. Not that I do not have my own fair share of doubts (my second nature, and still, or maybe because of that, I am one of those stupid minds who considers paying a lot to walk this "adventure", as Sean nicely put it)... but I want to ask you something:

 

just in case there exists something like a matrix and all of what we perceive as real is not real at all:

 

what then is the turtle?

 

And what then would the way the turtle was approached mean outside the boundaries of the matrix?

 

Not that I say this is so. I just hope everybody having made up their mind 100% to consider a different possibility. It could very well be... otherwise it does not make sense to speak about the possibility of a matrix...

 

in my humble opinion

 

and one more thing comes to mind. I can not tell where you are in your development, but for now let me assume you are not enlightened yet... How can a non-enlightened tell anything about what indeed an elightened being looks like? Sure: we all have ideas of what she/he/it has to look like, but just because we have ideas of it doesn't mean this has to be so or is so. And when you say we have written records of what an enlightened being behaves like etc.... well: all that is written is just written and not experienced right here right now. Once again: it helps us form an idea but might be light years away from what actually is

 

 

Harry

PS: Beacuse it was mentioned/asked: the reasons for wanting to blackmail somebody else can be many. In that case: not being accepted as a student might be a simple reason... once again: not saying that is so. Just saying that it could be

Edited November 20, 2007 by sunshine

[DentyDao]

Well, he does teach publicly. If you mean to openly reveal some of the training, I think there will be some of that inevitably, but if you take a course with David you would see why the training really does require a teacher to be present and guide and give the transmission. It's a lot of theory and practice and creating the proper frame for understanding. David also creates a field to work in like his teachers and carefully monitors the progress and capacity of the group to support that field and tap into it. The teaching can vary depending on the group, so it's important to understand that it is NOT one size fits all, cookie cutter methods and techniques. It's not a few simple techniques or breathing exercises; it's rather a set or system of knowledge that is passed on, some of it very complex.

 

And besides, David has a very good handle on making money, he really doesn't need any coaching or advice in that area, trust me. He has many irons in the fire including a 700 page manual and introduction on Long Men Pai that he is writing at the request of Wang Liping, a revised biography of Wang Liping and a major research undertaking with Zhai and the Chinese government, plus several other projects with various masters and his teaching and his own practice. Teaching is really a side hobby that he does for enjoyment.

[Smile]

Max,

 

I have no problem with anything you wrote; I would be inclined to agree although, from you posts on the foundation forum, it's clear we do have some differences of opinion.

Sure we do. On methods. Not on the core or the foundation.

And I usualy stop myself short of comparing other paths to "WalMart of spirituality"... lol. ok, ok, maybe Healing Dao organization a few times. But who hasn't made a stupid mistake even once? Like tatooing your girlfriend's name? Women get pretty disturbed by my 'Martha Forever' and 'Missy Till I Die' tattoos whenever I remove my pants. Well, by those and the fact that I just took my pants off on the bus.

[sunshine]

Women get pretty disturbed by my 'Martha Forever' and 'Missy Till I Die' tattoos whenever I remove my pants. Well, by those and the fact that I just took my pants off on the bus.

 

Okay Max. You put out the claim NOW I want the PROOF! How much do you want me to pay?

[DentyDao]

Women get pretty disturbed by my 'Martha Forever' and 'Missy Till I Die' tattoos whenever I remove my pants. Well, by those and the fact that I just took my pants off on the bus.

 

Good times

[lockpaw]

Even if these masters were evolved, I'd be surprised if they were sharing what they really knew. I know from learning internal martial arts that very little is taught, even to students. There are people who study IMAs for years who, from what I've learned, are not taught how to actually use tai chi.

 

Even if these LSD masters are able to produce miraculous results, what makes anyone think they would pass on the REAL teaching? Especially if they are prone, as denty would have us believe, to playing the trickster and passing on false knowledge. It is common knowledge that many Asian masters will not teach cultural outsiders their art. Besides Chinese tai chi masters, D.T. Suzuki is said to say that Zen cannot be understood by or truly taught to non-Japanese. Now we have these allegedly high level Chinese masters openly teaching for anyone who can pay? I doubt it very much.

Edited November 21, 2007 by lockpaw

[DentyDao]

Even if these masters were evolved, I'd be surprised if they were sharing what they really knew. I know from learning internal martial arts that very little is taught, even to students. There are people who study IMAs for years who, from what I've learned, are not taught how to actually use tai chi.

 

Even if these LSD masters are able to produce miraculous results, what makes anyone think they would pass on the REAL teaching? Especially if they are prone, as denty would have us believe, to playing the trickster and passing on false knowledge. It is common knowledge that many Asian masters will not teach cultural outsiders their art. Besides Chinese tai chi masters, D.T. Suzuki is said to say that Zen cannot be understood by or truly taught to non-Japanese. Now we have these allegedly high level Chinese masters openly teaching for anyone who can pay? I doubt it very much.

 

It's true sadly to an extent, but David is an exception; he is Italian by birth and has been excepted as Tu Di by Zhai Sifu and now Liping. Foundation alone is a complete method for liberation, so it's there if you really want it bad enough; many of David's students are progressing now to the so called level two, which is something in and of itself. David's own accomplishments are truly amazing.

 

Some masters have restrictions about teaching to westerners, Zhai (Jiang) and Wang Liping do not.

 

Obviously, I'm engaged in the debate here, but really it's better for people who really want to know about foundation to go to the forum. The information there is very complete and and just makes more sense to present the information there. It really seems like a waste of time to make useless spectulations and judgments formed on hearsay and gossup. If you really want to know some basic info about foundation, go to the forum and just ask.

 

The forum will close to the public soon because David prefers to focus on his research and writing, but you can still get in for free for the next few weeks. After that, there will be a membership fee and David may do some Q&A via video conference.

 

www.foundation73.proboards55.com

[Adam West]

 

Mantis...when Sean or David say that 'your practices' - whatever they may be and to whomever in question - will not get you to the pinnacle of your potential, why are so many so quick to take personal offense at that? None is intended.

 

 

In my view, the historical evidence to the contrary is simply overwhelming - the above proposition does not seem to have any support except in the traditional belief set of the path that David represents - and other religions also - as has been historically documented.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I am just trying to get a reasonable explanation for the article. Sean's reasoning that he did this to avoid publicity just does not make any sense to me....he actually got more publicity because of it. It is hard to dismiss Atek so easily because he has so much information, has no obvious motivation to lie and also because of the purported insane amount of $ given for the "dan" pills. On the other hand, I actually think that Zhai's videos which were available briefly in youtube, did look quite convincing (that he has some kind of power).

 

I can't believe I never noticed this before, but in light of what Neikung wrote I took another look at the videos again. In case you guys didn't know youtube and other online video files get saved to your computer's temp directory as .flv file. You can download a freeware program like flvplayer and watch youtube videos on your own pc. In the turtle demonstration Jiang has a device attached to his belt. When he is supposedly "exherting his chi" what he is doing is contracting his abdominals and triggering the device on his belt just like what neikung's friend described.

 

Can you find it here? Hint look inside the red circle.

 

Arm goes up....

 

Arm goes down, abs tighten around device... and zap... instant yin yang gong

 

Yeah I know, I know. It's just a pager in case the immortals need to get a hold of him. How long are you guys going to keep up your willing suspension of disbelief?

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Oolong,

 

Do you have the whole clip?

 

Imagine if these masters have been taken people for a ride, i would be disappointed this also goes for Lama Thunderbolt Max??

 

WYG

[Oolong Rabbit]

Oolong,

 

Do you have the whole clip?

 

Yes but I would rather not distribute it around.

 

 

Imagine if these masters have been taken people for a ride, i would be disappointed this also goes for Lama Thunderbolt Max??

 

WYG

 

I think there are masters out there with real abilities, but I personally do not believe that Jiang is amongst them. As for Lama Max, I am not really sure what to make of him, but it doesn't matter because Kunlun seems effective regardless. Same may go for David and his foundation training.

 

BTW, there was a video on the web a while back demonstrating how this can be faked by using a capacitor or something from an old tv. The charge stayed in the body, and he was burning paper from a distance without touching it. The shirt demo, though I think is more likely a chemical being used.

[DentyDao]

I can't believe I never noticed this before, but in light of what Neikung wrote I took another look at the videos again. In case you guys didn't know youtube and other online video files get saved to your computer's temp directory as .flv file. You can download a freeware program like flvplayer and watch youtube videos on your own pc. In the turtle demonstration Jiang has a device attached to his belt. When he is supposedly "exherting his chi" what he is doing is contracting his abdominals and triggering the device on his belt just like what neikung's friend described.

 

Can you find it here? Hint look inside the red circle.

 

Arm goes up....

 

Arm goes down, abs tighten around device... and zap... instant yin yang gong

 

Yeah I know, I know. It's just a pager in case the immortals need to get a hold of him. How long are you guys going to keep up your willing suspension of disbelief?

 

Zhai was not demonstrating Yin Yang Gong, the electric like phenomena, but using his qi actually burn the hand of each participant without touching them. This is totally different. How would he do that with a battery pack?

 

The thing on his belt is his cell phone which I have seen him use... he talks into it and, amazingly, people talk back on the other end. Say it with me now, "telephone." He also drives an Audi and lives in a nice house with his wife and two kids.

 

I met to top scientists from major European universities who have met Zhai and done research on his abilities. These are people who look for tricks and are naturally skeptical who are going to be involved in helping run clinical trials. I mean do you really believe that twenty intelligent adults wouldn't notice a battery pack on his belt? It's kind of silly. If you go to the foundation forum you can read the testamonials of regular folks who went and saw that same things and were very skeptical like most would be in the beginning. Read their stories, some of them are very well written and go into great detail about what was experienced in a very balanced and objective way.

 

When I was in China there were dozens of masters, Jiang's students, several of them did the same demonstrations. A women student over the age of fifty with two kids passed yin yang gong to David and she was wearing no devices. Sifu was in his T-shirt and had no such device when I saw him demonstrate several of his abilities; same with his main student who also did demos for our group.

 

Many of David's masters have, including I believe Jiang Sifu, performed the same demostrations naked; students were doing the same and even western students can do these things now. So, from my perspective, it seems really contrived to look at a video and claim that his cell phone is a battery pack. He simply wasn't wearing it whan I was there. And, more to the point, there are around one hundred masters between Jiang and his brothers students, so I mean how can you really look at that say, oh well, they are just really clever at hiding battery packs in their asses.

 

Can a battery pack drop a four hundred pound bull like a puppy dog? Go read about the Bulls of Yellow mountain and the power of the Grand masters. Oh right, I forgot, I suppose it was the energizer bunny in sifu's cell phone, right

 

Again why not go and actually read the evidence that has been presented at the foundation forum. What sense does it make or what purpose does it possibly serve to go around on the internet trying to convince people that it was a battery pack? What are you getting out of that deal? What's your motivation behind such actions? If you were remotely serious about finding the actual truth, you would at least bother to read through the perspective of the people there and really think clearly about what you are doing and what your intention is. The demonstrations from the October trip were even more convincing and remarkable and you can read all of the eye whitness accounts from people who have no motive and nothing to gain by lying.

 

Wouldn't it be better, if you were truly interested in such things, to actually go and find out the truth and investigate it instead of making accusations over the internet?

 

What value are you putting on your own personal time when you engage in useless behavior and spend your time worry about whether some guy in China has a battery back that he zaps people with. I guess there are people who make a career out of debunking paranormal phenomena. Like James Randi; he spent his whole life going after Sylvia Brown and Uri Geller trying to prove they are fakes and they are both far more popular and believed in now than they ever were. While Randi sits at home having one heart attack after another because he spent his life hating people that he secretly longed to be like and admired. It's a sick twisted kind of game really, attacking others and spending your time worrying about the activities of others.

 

My question to all the real skeptics is why waste your time. If you aren't a believer, spend your time doing something useful like promoting a cause that you believe in, or a path you find rings true to you, and doing something positive with your life that you can be proud of and have something to show for when your short life ends. Why spend your precious time attacking and player hating.

 

It seems like most of us have at least figured that much out.

 

Don't be a Randi.

Edited November 21, 2007 by seandenty

[Taoist81]

I met to top scientists from major European universities who have met Zhai and done research on his abilities. These are people who look for tricks and are naturally skeptical who are going to be involved in helping run clinical trials.

Without commenting AT ALL on the truth or fiction of these guys abilities, it is worth pointing out that "scientists" are not trained to "look for tricks". James Randi, a man whom you yourself described as a bottom feeding illusionist (i.e. not a very good one) was able to set up scientists investigating "psi" abilities. He and his cohorts were able to convince scientists that what they were seeing and testing was real, only to later demonstrate how it was done. Again, this is not meant to comment in anyway on your particular school, so there is no need to get all worked up about it. It is only to say that in some circumstances it would be better to have well trained illusionists test or observe "superpowered" individuals instead of scientists.

On another note, in regards to your claim from before that some scientists had submitted a master's superwater to a mass spectrometer, do you have any references to this? It would be incredibly interesting to read about. It isn't everyday that new elements are discovered. That would really cause a stir in the scientific community since it would be clearly falsifiable and would be the first real demonstrable evidence of a type of supernatural ability.

[DentyDao]

Without commenting AT ALL on the truth or fiction of these guys abilities, it is worth pointing out that "scientists" are not trained to "look for tricks". James Randi, a man whom you yourself described as a bottom feeding illusionist (i.e. not a very good one) was able to set up scientists investigating "psi" abilities. He and his cohorts were able to convince scientists that what they were seeing and testing was real, only to later demonstrate how it was done. Again, this is not meant to comment in anyway on your particular school, so there is no need to get all worked up about it. It is only to say that in some circumstances it would be better to have well trained illusionists test or observe "superpowered" individuals instead of scientists.

On another note, in regards to your claim from before that some scientists had submitted a master's superwater to a mass spectrometer, do you have any references to this? It would be incredibly interesting to read about. It isn't everyday that new elements are discovered. That would really cause a stir in the scientific community since it would be clearly falsifiable and would be the first real demonstrable evidence of a type of supernatural ability.

 

 

Yes, I'm aware that Randi has made all kinds of claims about how easy scientists are to fool. But I also take into consideration the fact that Randi himself is not a scientist, he is not talking about strict government funded clinical trials, and he is an individual who spent most of his adult life debunking common Tarot card readers and amature psychics.

 

What I can tell you is that I personally talked to the scientist in Vienna who did the testing and he said, it is not a known molecular structure; it was tested against millions of samples. We are a long way from having published findings, but David wants, with the masters blessing, to get one hundred masters and run tests on them.

 

Honestly, I personally have witnessed enough to open up a little to the possibilities that science is not really a good reflection of reality, so to me it's an after thought; still such things have their place.

 

If you want to start to be able to see into my world reading the Magus of Java by Kostas Danaos. He is a very brilliant engineer who studied under John Chang, his master, and wrote a book about his experiences from a scientific perspective. You might also check out Opening the Dragon Gate: the making of a modern Taoist wizard.

 

Thes two books got me thinking in a different way. I followed it from there and met a few of David's masters; so gradually my eyes opened up a little and the reality is now it just seems normal.