Duty and responsibilty in Daoist/Taoist thought

[fatherpaul]

In any moral or civic philosophy, as is with most religious thought,

"Duty" and "Responsibilty" have core value in these disiplines.

 

yet it is said:

 

(19)

"Eliminate sagacity, abandon knowledge,

and the people benefit a hundredfold.

Eliminate humanitarianism, abandon duty, and the people return to familial love.

Eliminate craft, abandon profit,

and theft no longer exists.

...." (Thomas Cleary, The Essential Tao)

 

how does one reconcile these apparent differences

in ones everyday life?

[sean]

The sense I get is that ... the best we can be is what we naturally are. Imposing an intellectual ideal of, say, duty and responsibility on ourselves is actually counterproductive in the longterm compared to just resting, abandoning, forgetting and allowing our innate goodness to arise and express as it will.

[spyrelx]

Throw away holiness and wisdom

and the people will be a hundred times happier

throw away morality and justice

and the people will do the right thing

throw away industry and profit

and there won't be any theives

 

If these three aren't enough

just stay in the center of the circle

and let things take their course

 

-- stephen mitchell

 

 

I tend to concur with Sean. I'm not particularly learned in this area, but my impression is that there's not there's a lot of duty and responsibility in the tao te ching (at least not for anyone other than a ruler) or in daoism in general. I think what there is seeps in from confusionism and even buddhism.

[Pietro]

In any moral or civic philosophy, as is with most religious thought,

"Duty" and "Responsibilty" have core value in these disiplines.

 

yet it is said:

 

(19)

"Eliminate sagacity, abandon knowledge,

and the people benefit a hundredfold.

Eliminate humanitarianism, abandon duty, and the people return to familial love.

Eliminate craft, abandon profit,

and theft no longer exists.

...." (Thomas Cleary, The Essential Tao)

 

how does one reconcile these apparent differences

in ones everyday life?

Paul, dear, if I lend you some money will you give it back to me once you don't need it anymore? And if you do it, will you do it because it is your DUTY or because...

well you just give it back. It is right. It is ok to do it. You feel good in doing it. Or, more precisely, you would feel bad in not doing so. You might feel something is not right. It is not concluded.

...?

 

So, assuming that you were to give back the money, do you think all people would do it? Actually no, there are some people who would not, but the great majority of people would. Now, if you impose to people what they should do, you know what will happen. That people will start to do it, not because they feel wrong in not doing so, but because they have learned that this is the RIGHT thing to do. Then they will start going around preaching to other people what they should do. And then they will start imposing penalties for people who don't follow their guidelines. Either physical, monetary, or just social. That person is a bad person. He wanted to fuck MichaelD. Burn him, burn him. In short a mess. And what's worse is that they lost track of their true nature. They don't do something because they feel like. They do something because it has been told them that that is the correct and proper way to behave/reach enlightenment.

 

So my take is that a taoist can be a very ethical person. And often is, even by other religions standard. Yet, since its ethical sense comes from the inside, and not from the outside, it is always a bit different. A bit unique. And maybe even a bit wrong . But to reach this you had to throw away all those external impositions, and look for your original nature. For what it really felt right and good for you.

[fatherpaul]

Paul, dear, if I lend you some money will you give it back to me once you don't need it anymore? And if you do it, will you do it because it is your DUTY or because...

well you just give it back. It is right. It is ok to do it. You feel good in doing it. Or, more precisely, you would feel bad in not doing so. You might feel something is not right. It is not concluded.

...?

 

So, assuming that you were to give back the money, do you think all people would do it? Actually no, there are some people who would not, but the great majority of people would. Now, if you impose to people what they should do, you know what will happen. That people will start to do it, not because they feel wrong in not doing so, but because they have learned that this is the RIGHT thing to do. Then they will start going around preaching to other people what they should do. And then they will start imposing penalties for people who don't follow their guidelines. Either physical, monetary, or just social. That person is a bad person. He wanted to fuck MichaelD. Burn him, burn him. In short a mess. And what's worse is that they lost track of their true nature. They don't do something because they feel like. They do something because it has been told them that that is the correct and proper way to behave/reach enlightenment.

 

So my take is that a taoist can be a very ethical person. And often is, even by other religions standard. Yet, since its ethical sense comes from the inside, and not from the outside, it is always a bit different. A bit unique. And maybe even a bit wrong . But to reach this you had to throw away all those external impositions, and look for your original nature. For what it really felt right and good for you.

 

excellent reply

 

this is what i was getting at

you cannot impose morality (duty, responsibility) on people.

it must come from within.

 

"the sage who is a master of the way, does not use this to enlighten people, but to make them unsophisticated." some guy

[Mal]

That person is a bad person. He wanted to fuck MichaelD. Burn him, burn him.

 

 

ROTFLMAO

 

That's classic, cheers