Practical Taoism and Sex

[Yen Hui]

Master Hua Ching Ni on ~

 

THE TAOIST ATTITUTDE TOWARD SEX

 

"The topic of sex is something that comes up for all spiritual teachings. This is because sexual energy is the

foundation of spiritual growth. Some teachers abuse it. It is best that a teaching does not have a stiff attitude

toward sex, but discipline is important. Anyone engaging in spiritual learning must not have a loose attitude

toward sex. If one has a suitable sexual expression, it is important to know the right way to do it, and what is

beneficial and correct for oneself and one's partner. This is the correct sexual attitude at the stage of an

achieved spiritual person." ( Taoist Master Hua Ching Ni, in Entering the Tao, p. 101)

 

Agree or disagree, I want to hear it. One condition, though: you need to be able to back it up, preferrably with

canonical teachings. Not really interested in "smart-ass" remarks, non-Taoist viewpoints, etc. etc. If you think

your viewpoint or practice is basically Taoist, please offer a clear and convincing explanation why. If you feel

it's true that some teachers "abuse" sexual energy, I would like to know how so and why the abuse? I would

like to clarify what is the correct Taoist attitude toward sex. Thanks for your consideration!

[fatherpaul]

Sir,

 

It is thought that differentiates between "sexual energy" and other forms of energy

there is only the need to propagate the species, there are not different energies.

Perhaps he sees this.

 

peace,

paul

[sean]

Not to be a smart ass, but shouldn't we first clarify what is the difference between Taoism and non-Taoism? That would be the foundation for the entire discussion and if that isn't clear, the discussion is empty. My suggestion is that in order to engage in even this preliminary Tao vs. non-Tao conversation, you have to pick a reference point.

 

Which is then, canonically, not the Tao. True?

 

There is no distinction between Tao and anything else. "The principle that can be enunciated is not the one that always was. The being that can be named is not the one that was at all times."

 

Yet there is a Tao that is distinct from something else. In a way. It just cannot be grasped by the mind. Still, we can discuss it and point to it as long as we remain in truth and are not lost by our own words. Furthermore, this discussion is about Taoism, the historical Chinese religion that has specific characteristics we can clarify and discuss, not unlike antique dealers might talk about the evolution of a culture's furniture.

 

Once something becomes an "ism" it is lost. "When the oneness of humanity is forgotten a distinction is made between good and evil. Focusing on goodness leads one down the path of self-righteousness which separates a person from others. Self-righteousness leads to justice and since justice is as arbitrary as goodness and righteousness, it degenerates into a facade of justice or ritual."

 

Perhaps in the same way that someone might merely hear of Christianity and then by chance stumble upon a spiritual relationship with what she might call Christ and then come to call herself a Christian -- all without approval from the Pope or the meticulous reference of Biblical scripture ... well, perhaps one can follow their heart and remain more "true to the Tao" than slaves to intellectual analysis of what is authentic and what is spontaneous.

 

A good friend of mine from Mexico used to tell me that he thought it was silly whenever he saw the term "Authentic Mexican Restaurant". He felt the term "authentic Mexican" was strange.

 

What does it mean for something to be authentically Mexican? That a Mexican makes it? A Mexican can make a cheeseburger. Is that an authentic Mexican cheeseburger?

 

Is it that it tastes like food from Mexico? When you live in Mexico, you realize that all the food tastes different and that, in actuality, clever innovation is appreciated in a restaurant. Not a bizarre attempt to distill the essence of what makes Mexican food Mexican food and sticking to that.

 

But we do mean something intelligible when we say "authentic Mexican". If a bunch of white guys that had never eaten Mexican food or even met a Mexican opened up a diner serving scrambled eggs and spring rolls and called it "Mexican food" it would strike most as strange and inappropriate.

 

Reading what I've written, essentially I've said nothing. I fail to see my own point. Sorry. Carry on.

 

Sean

[Yen Hui]

It is thought that differentiates between "sexual energy" and other forms of energy

there is only the need to propagate the species, there are not different energies.

 

Sir Paul, thanks for chiming in. In regard to the "original" oneness or unity of the

Three Treasures, Thomas Cleary makes the following observation(s):-

 

"Vitality, energy, and spirit might be defined as the fundamental productive, kinetic,

and conscious forces of life. In Taoism they are said to be originally one, yet spoken

of as threefold because of their temporal specialization into the energies of sexuality,

metabolism, and thought. There are practices which involve the temporal conditioned

forms of the three treasures - sexual exercises, breathing exercises, and controlled

imagination; but these are said (by numerous authors, including Chang Po-tuan, author

of Understanding Reality) to be limited in that they do not produce permanent results.

In addition, there are said to be mental and physical dangers associated with such

practices. Many texts therefore make a point of dismissing them or relegating them

to a secondary place." ( Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 19 )

 

My sense or feeling is that Master Hua Ching Ni would not disagree with the above

statement by Cleary. But if you would'nt mind clarifying your meaning Paul, for me

(us?), are you saying that sex for any reason other than procreation constitutes a

deviation from the correct Taoist attitude toward it, and therefore from Taoist praxis?

[Taomeow]

 

Reading what I've written, essentially I've said nothing. I fail to see my own point. Sorry. Carry on.

 

Sean

 

 

You were trying to define the tao of Mexican food.

 

Now a more interesting thing with tao of anything (or tao of nothing at all for that matter) than the well-known fact that it "can't be named" is that it can be described. Can't be defined but can be described. That's because tao is a process, not a "thing." Processes can be described; "things" can be named, defined, pinned down.

 

So when we are trying to understand what the tao of "authentic Mexican food" is we can go about it indirectly -- best of all by cooking it, next best, by simply describing what you use (and how) and omitting whatever ingredients you don't use (and whatever methods you don't use). E.g., you omit garam masala, black fungus, sushi rice wrapped in seaweed... You omit tandoori oven, Red Cooking, the art of slicing raw fish against the grain... You may notice that the first entry (both with ingredients and with methods) points indirectly to "authentic Indian," the second, "authentic Chinese," and the third, "authentic Japanese" cuisine. I haven't defined either, but I pointed in the general direction of each one respectively... That's the traditional way to go about tackling tao as well -- don't define it but point, describe, mention, show signs... I point out "borscht and latkes" on the menu and it's enough to give a general idea of "hardly any Mexican food here" -- then I mention "carnitos, burritos, quesadilla" and it is quite, quite likely to mean "Mexican food" -- indefinitely Mexican perhaps but definitely "not" Jamaican, Polish or Samoan.

 

Did I guess your intentions correctly?

[Pietro]

Master Hua Ching Ni on ~

 

THE TAOIST ATTITUTDE TOWARD SEX

 

"The topic of sex is something that comes up for all spiritual teachings. This is because sexual energy is the

foundation of spiritual growth. Some teachers abuse it. It is best that a teaching does not have a stiff attitude

toward sex, but discipline is important. Anyone engaging in spiritual learning must not have a loose attitude

toward sex. If one has a suitable sexual expression, it is important to know the right way to do it, and what is

beneficial and correct for oneself and one's partner. This is the correct sexual attitude at the stage of an

achieved spiritual person." ( Taoist Master Hua Ching Ni, in Entering the Tao, p. 101)

 

Agree or disagree, I want to hear it. One condition, though: you need to be able to back it up, preferrably with

canonical teachings. Not really interested in "smart-ass" remarks, non-Taoist viewpoints, etc. etc. If you think

your viewpoint or practice is basically Taoist, please offer a clear and convincing explanation why. If you feel

it's true that some teachers "abuse" sexual energy, I would like to know how so and why the abuse? I would

like to clarify what is the correct Taoist attitude toward sex. Thanks for your consideration!

 

 

First of all I would like to point out that Thomas Cleary is not a Taoist, he is a translatior of taoists texts. But he also (mainly) translates Buddhists texts, Confucianists and Muslim. So, please, I need to ask you to refrain from using him as a source for I would just not consider the citation relevant on the base that the translator is looking at Taoism from outside in, and not from inside in.

 

Everything that I say please consider it as coming from what I learned from my teacher, Master Bruce Kumar Frantzis. Who is a Master, Taoist Priest, Taoist Lineage holder. If I add anything that is not coming from him (directly or indirectly -his students-), I shall point it out.[in brackets]

 

I would also like to divide between taoism and neo-taoism. Neo-taoism, as you know (because of the references that you make) came out about 1000 years ago, by the joining of Taoist Alchemy, Taoist Qi Gung, Confucianist morality, and Buddhist empty mind meditations (and probably more).[shambhala guide to Taoism] I am, and study, Taoism, not Neo-taoism. My teacher is a Taoist teacher. His teacher was both a taoist and a neo-taoist, as he was proficient in both ways. He was also a buddhist and a confucianist. Quite a remarkable person.

 

Now the topic of sex and taoism is an interesting one. The first aim in taoism is to achieve a state of balance; that is a state where everything is the same. In that state you can then let your natural spontaneity come out.

In this respect having things that are tabu, is itself a tabu. In the sense that if you have something that you naturally want to do, then you should go forward and do it. This does not mean to do anything that passes through your head. But it does mean to do things you have a strong impulse to do. So throwing yourself from the window just because the thought has passed in this moment in your head, is not enough to do it. Wanting to have sex, is for the great majority of human being a natural desire. As such it should be kept. Where this teaching is weak, is when you have a person. and a few there are, for whom killing is in their nature. It is rare, but as we were told, it does happen, and when this happens, it is a problem. But for most of us this is not the case, and any homicidal or suicidal tendency come from blockages we have. That is they can be dissolved away.

 

Now sex is something that most people want to naturally have. But not everybody! According to various statistics (I can't back it up with the stats, this is coming from Bruce lesson), not everybody enjoys sex. Many women never reach orgasm, and there is about a 20% of people who really don't care about sex. Although often in those 20% you will find many who say thay want to have sex, or who think it is so, just to be then deluded when they do it. It is their nature. Or you might say, it is NOT in their nature. Among the people who like to have sex, you have also various type of people. People who like to be in a single relationship (often, but not always or only, the wood type), and people who like to have multiple relationship, or just no relationship at all, and just a series of one night stands. All this is inside our nature, and in Taoism all this is considered to be ok. So people are expected to find out what kind of sexual relationship they naturally find themselves happy with, and have them. When my teacher said to his teacher, "I want to be like you", he was answered that he should not, and he should instead follow his nature. Sex, on that occasion was taken as an example, as his teacher was a natural celibate, who would only have sex to perform his Confucianist duty (procreation). My teacher wasn't, isn't, and it will not be celibate by any definition of celibacy you can come up with.

 

And all this bring on the point of right hand taoists, center-taoists, and left hand taoists. Where right hand taoists, are taoists who are naturally celibate. Left hand taoists are taoists who have a lot of sex. You might find them in orgies, or having multiple partners. And center taoists are taoists like Michael Winn [Winn, personal comunicatio, 1996, Frank Allen, 96-2002, & Frantzis], who have one relationship, are often married, and often you would not distinguish them from normal, non taoists folks.

 

So, now in China, when people speak about my teacher and his teacher, they quite simply say: oh yes, the old master was a right hand taoist, and the new master is a left hand taoist. Full stop. Period. End note. There is NO judgement on this. From the Taoists.

 

Now, where does judgememnt come in. As you have right and left taoists, you also have right and left paths. That is, you have schools that use right hand method, schools that use left hand methods, and schools that use both (but generally avoiding practices that are too extreeme). But please understand that Taoists don't have the "thou shall not lie" sin. Not because they did not believe in honesty, but because they are quite pragmatic people, and understand that not lieing in China, can sometimes be a form of suicide. And since going around and saying that you are a left hand taoist can bring you problems (not from other taoists, but from magistrates, officials & confucianists), the left hand taoists are somehow secluded.

 

So, while right hand groups will have practices where you are not going to ejaculate at all for ... days. Left hand taoists will have very different practices. They too might not ejaculate from time to time. Bot not always. The practices I made references before, where a man where to have sex with 1000 women before his first relationship, was one of this. There are many others. Where all this brings you to is to a state where you really, fully, totally, no doubt left, no maybe, understand that sex is just something natural that happens between human beings. Other practices might be, for example, being present when a person you fancy is having sex with someone else. Be present and just dissolve all that is coming up. All the anger, the frustration, the desire. In this respect sex is seen as conducive toward enlightenment. But please do understand, because I can already see you picking up the whip, the chain to torture yourself a bit to reach enlightenment. In the taoist path, as it has been presented by my teacher, they say:

"you give to the people what they want... and eventually they will want what they need".

 

It is a very different teaching from the Buddhist, the Christian, and any other religion I came across with.

 

Pietro

Edited March 25, 2007 by Pietro

[fatherpaul]

Sir Paul, thanks for chiming in. In regard to the "original" oneness or unity of the

Three Treasures, Thomas Cleary makes the following observation(s):-

 

"Vitality, energy, and spirit might be defined as the fundamental productive, kinetic,

and conscious forces of life. In Taoism they are said to be originally one, yet spoken

of as threefold because of their temporal specialization into the energies of sexuality,

metabolism, and thought. There are practices which involve the temporal conditioned

forms of the three treasures - sexual exercises, breathing exercises, and controlled

imagination; but these are said (by numerous authors, including Chang Po-tuan, author

of Understanding Reality) to be limited in that they do not produce permanent results.

In addition, there are said to be mental and physical dangers associated with such

practices. Many texts therefore make a point of dismissing them or relegating them

to a secondary place." ( Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 19 )

 

My sense or feeling is that Master Hua Ching Ni would not disagree with the above

statement by Cleary. But if you would'nt mind clarifying your meaning Paul, for me

(us?), are you saying that sex for any reason other than procreation constitutes a

deviation from the correct Taoist attitude toward it, and therefore from Taoist praxis?

 

 

sex is sex whats the problem?

there is not taoist sex, and other sex.

3 treasures 1 treasure, so?

 

procreation is needed, sex is the means.

[Yen Hui]

Not to be a smart ass, but shouldn't we first clarify what is the difference between Taoism and non-Taoism?

That would be the foundation for the entire discussion and if that isn't clear, the discussion is empty. My

suggestion is that in order to engage in even this preliminary Tao vs. non-Tao conversation, you have to pick a

reference point.

 

Which is then, canonically, not the Tao. True?

 

True! Point well-taken, actually.

 

There is no distinction between Tao and anything else. "The principle that can be enunciated is not the one that

always was. The being that can be named is not the one that was at all times."

 

Yet there is a Tao that is distinct from something else. In a way. It just cannot be grasped by the mind. Still,

we can discuss it and point to it as long as we remain in truth and are not lost by our own words.

 

Again I must agree, as this is the way the ancients approached the Tao. The "official" Taoist Canon itself, at

least what has survived of it, runs to well over a thousand volumes; and if one counts all the canonical writings

that were burned and lost over the millenia, it would run to well over two thousand volumes, most probably!

And that's just the "official" canonized writings. If one counts all the Taoist writings ever published, including

those of our own contemporary times, the number would double or even tripple, easily! So, we are in good

company when attempting to articulate the mysteriously profound and subtle Way!

 

Furthermore, this discussion is about Taoism, the historical Chinese religion that has specific characteristics we

can clarify and discuss, not unlike antique dealers might talk about the evolution of a culture's furniture.

 

True enough, but the discussion does not need to be limited to purely historical examples. Despite its

present state, "Taoism" continues to be a "living" tradition, with contemporary lineage holders; though

few and far between, by comparison to its "golden" years. Master Hua Ching Ni represents a genuine

"lineage"; Master Mantak Chia another; and the same holds true about several contemporary masters.

What this 'living' tradition has to say about the subject is entirely germane to the discussion. Still, only

if it adheres to the 'canonical' teachings and to complete reality. Furthermore, persons may contribute

insight(s) from their own direct experience of Taoist sexuality and praxis, (within reason, of course,) if

they are able to demonstrate its decidedly 'Taoist' character.

 

Once something becomes an "ism" it is lost. "When the oneness of humanity is forgotten a distinction is made

between good and evil. Focusing on goodness leads one down the path of self-righteousness which separates a

person from others. Self-righteousness leads to justice and since justice is as arbitrary as goodness and

righteousness, it degenerates into a facade of justice or ritual."

 

Just to help facilitate the discussion, Sean, please document your source(s) when using quotations, so

we can check them, or provide a link to where it can be located online. I'm not entirely sure where the

above quote is sourced from, just for the record. At any rate, here are chapters 8 and 27 of the Tao

Te Ching:-

 

Tao Te Ching 8 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap08

 

Higher good is like water:

the good in water benefits all,

and does so without contention.

It rests where people dislike to be,

so it is close to the Way.

Where it dwells becomes good ground;

profound is the good in its heart,

benevolent the good it bestows.

Goodness in words is trustworthiness,

goodness in government is order;

goodness in work is ability,

goodness in action is timeliness.

But only by non-contention

is there nothing extreme.

 

Cleary offers the following commentary on the above words:-

 

"Chen Jingyaun says that water symbolizes having an open heart, dispassionately adapting to changes,

according to the time. The latter part of this chapter, about goodness in words, government, work, and

action, clearly shows that Taoism was not quietistic, introverted, or amoral, and not opposed to the

original spirit of Confucianism." ( Taoist Classics, V. 1, p. 112)

 

However, having said that, Cleary also offers the following observations with regard to the Taoist view

of sexuality:-

 

"In Complete Reality Taoism, sexuality has no moral associations, and its operation and employment

are treated as a practical issue. The basic premise in this regard is that sexual activity can either boost

or deplete energy; the fundamental aim of Complete Reality praxis seems to be to control and consciously

direct sexuality - neither celibacy nor indulgence, according to Chang Po-tuan, author of Understanding

Reality, will take one to the goal. In Chang's southern school of Complete Reality Taoism, sexual intercourse

(both physical and mental) was used to cultivate energy, bliss, and health, especially in the case of

practitioners of advanced age. As with breathing exercises and psychosomatic concentration practices,

sexual techniques are considered hazardous if improperly performed. Taoist literature abounds

with warnings about the misuse of sexuality, both technically and generally; as with other aspects of life

in the world, the matter is presented as a question of whether one is controlled by one's energies, or in

control of them." ( Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 20-21 )

 

Tao Te Ching 27 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap27

 

Good works are trackless,

good words are flawless,

good planning isn't calculating.

What is well closed has no bolt locking it,

but cannot be opened.

What is well bound has no rope confining it,

but cannot be untied.

Therefore sages always consider it good to save people,

so that there are no wasted humans;

they always consider it good to save beings,

so that there are no wasted beings.

So good people are teachers

of people who are not good.

People who are not good

are students of people who are good.

Those who do not honor teachers or care for students

are greatly deluded, even in knowledgeable.

This is called an essential subtlety.

 

Question 1: Do Lao Tzu, Chen Jingyuan, and Thomas Cleary distinguish

between good and evil, in the above words?

Question 2: Does such a distinction, then, imply a distinction between

right and wrong, or justice and injustice?

 

Perhaps in the same way that someone might merely hear of Christianity and then by chance stumble upon a

spiritual relationship with what she might call Christ and then come to call herself a Christian -- all without

approval from the Pope or the meticulous reference of Biblical scripture ... well, perhaps one can follow their

heart and remain more "true to the Tao" than slaves to intellectual analysis of what is authentic and what is

spontaneous.

 

Yes, the sage remains "true to the Tao" by following his heart, but not ordinary people. Both the I Ching and

Tao Te Ching distinguish the sage or superior person from ordinary people. The sage is described as having

become like an innocent child. See Hexagram 25 @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h25.html ,

for example:-

 

THE JUDGMENT

 

INNOCENCE. Supreme success.

Perseverance furthers.

If someone is not as he should be,

He has misfortune,

And it does not further him

To undertake anything.

 

Man has received from heaven a nature innately good, to guide him in all his movements. By devotion to this

divine spirit within himself, he attains an unsullied innocence that leads him to do right with instinctive

sureness and without any ulterior thought of reward and personal advantage. This instinctive certainty

brings about supreme success and "furthers through perseverance". However, not everything instinctive is

nature in this higher sense of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven.

Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune. Confucius

says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not

go with his deeds." [End of Quote]

 

According to the above viewpoint, only the pure in heart hit upon the Way "instinctively". This is implied in the

following words of Lao Tzu, himself :-

 

Tao Te Ching 03 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap03

 

Therefore the government of sages empties the mind and fills the middle,

weakens the ambition and strengthens the bones,

always keeping the people innocent and passionless.

 

Tao Te Ching 10 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap10

 

"As understanding reaches everywhere, can you be innocent?"

[Yen Hui]

sex is sex whats the problem?

 

A father has six daughters. He wants to practice sexual alchemy, but cannot find any women to

play with, except his six grown daughters, all in their 20's. The daughters all agree to let him

have his way with them, continuously, until his goal is realized. Is there a problem with this?

 

there is not taoist sex, and other sex.

 

Again, what do you mean? The Catholic view of sex is not the Taoist view. Agree or disagree?

 

3 treasures 1 treasure, so?

 

That is not the Taoist view.

 

procreation is needed, sex is the means.

That is not what you said earlier: You said "there is only the need to propagate the species."

According to Taoism, sexual yoga is not for "propagating the species."

[Yen Hui]

First of all I would like to point out that Thomas Cleary

is not a Taoist, he is a translatior of taoists texts. But he also (mainly) translates Buddhists texts, Confucianists

and Muslim. So, please, I need to ask you to refrain from using him as a source for I would just not consider

the citation relevant on the base that the translator is looking at Taoism from outside in, and not from inside in.

 

OK, I don't have any time left today for further replies, so they'll need to wait until tomorrow. However, since

you declare yourself a "true" Taoist, then I presume you'll refrain from commenting on Buddhist views of sex,

or any other traditions outside of Taoism. I will just consider such remarks as irrelevant, seeing that you are

not commenting on them either from inside those traditions, or from a "scholarly" point-of-view. With regard

to Cleary, can you tell me for certain that he does not practice any forms of Taoist cultivation? Nevertheless,

it is useless to try and say that Cleary does'nt know anything about Taoism, or in unqualified to comment on

Taoist praxis. Well, that's it ~ got'ta run now! Later all!

 

In the spirit of the Tao,

Yen Hui

[mbanu]

Depends.

 

Taoism's primary goal is grasping Te and through it Wu Wei. However, one can also use one's knowledge of the Taoist principles that underline the workings of the world to train it to do interesting and novel things which, while always in a state of Tao, are not always in a state of Te. Taoist sexual alchemy is an example of this.

 

From the ultimate goal of grasping te, sexual alchemy appears to be a step backwards.

 

16 Horses have hoofs to carry them over frost and snow; hair, to protect them from wind and cold. They eat grass and drink water, and fling up their heels over the prairie. Such is the real nature of horses. Palatial dwellings are of no use to them.

 

One day Po Lo appeared, saying: I understand the management of horses. So he branded them, and clipped them, and pared their hoofs, and put halters on them, tying them up by the head and shackling them by the feet, and putting them in stables. As a result, two or three in every ten died. Then he kept them hungry and thirsty, trotting them and galloping them, and grooming, and trimming, with the misery of the tasseled bridle before and the fear of the knotted whip behind, until more than half of them were dead.

 

The potter says: I can do what I will with clay. If I want it round, I use compasses; if rectangular, a square. The carpenter says: I can do what I will with wood. If I want it curved, I use an arc; if straight, a line. But on what grounds can we think that the natures of clay and wood desire this application of compasses and square, of arc and line? Nevertheless, every age extols Po Lo for his skill in managing horses, and potters and carpenters for their skill with clay and wood. Those who govern the empire make the same mistake.

 

Now I regard government of the empire from quite a different point of view. The people have certain natural instincts: to weave and clothe themselves, to plough and feed themselves. These are common to all humanity, and all are agreed about this. Such instincts come from nature.

 

17 And so in the days when natural instincts prevailed, men moved quietly and gazed steadily. At that time, there were no roads over mountains, nor boats, nor bridges over water. All things were produced, each for its own proper sphere. Birds and beasts multiplied; trees and shrubs grew up. The former might be led by the hand; you could climb up and peep into the raven's nest. For then man dwelt with birds and beasts, and all creation was one. There were no distinctions of good and bad men. Being all equally without knowledge, their virtue could not go astray. Being all equally without evil desires they were in a state of natural harmony, the perfection of human existence.

 

18 But when philosophers and prophets appeared, tripping up people over charity and fettering them with duty to their neighbor, doubt found its way into the world. And then, with their preoccupation with the performance of music, and their fussing over ceremony, the empire became divided against itself.

 

However, this ignores the fact that progress in the Tao follows a spiral, not a line. Before learning can be given up, it must first be cultivated, before one may discard their love of life, they must gather enough of it such that it no longer has value.

 

That which shrinks

Must first expand.

That which fails

Must first be strong.

That which is cast down

Must first be raised.

Before receiving

There must be giving.

 

This is called perception of the nature of things.

Soft and weak overcome hard and strong.

 

Fish cannot leave deep waters,

And a country's weapons should not be displayed.

 

I would argue that sexual practices aren't Taoism so much as they are popular with Taoists. Kind of like Jewish culture is different than Judaism.

[sean]

Can't be defined but can be described. That's because tao is a process, not a "thing." Processes can be described; "things" can be named, defined, pinned down.

 

That's the traditional way to go about tackling tao as well -- don't define it but point, describe, mention, show signs...

Taomeow, I'll really have to forward your thoughts to my friend! We turned the idea around more than once over more than one beer but never articulated anything as bright as this. Maybe we should have stopped after the first Tecate.

 

I do want to say though, I think there are critical problems even in "pointing to". The problems may not be as obvious. A more sophisticated smokescreen can be created pointing out processes. Process language is fuzzy and groundless (like reality) so it has a seductive quality that can more easily pass for reality itself. Whereas it's more readily apparent that intellectual definitions break down easily under scrutiny, in contrast even the most intelligent may create a beautiful web of shimmering translucent concepts and get stuck in it. Common sense tells us translucence is closer to clearness/clarity than that which is opaque, but I am reminded of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That the more one pursues and understanding of the momentum of something the less one can be precise about it's position (and vice versa). Perhaps, by analogy, the more one becomes proficient in understanding the process of Tao, the less sure they are of what that Tao IS, whereas the more precisely one knows what Tao is, the less aware they are of where it is going, what it is BECOMING. I am just being spontaneous and playing with words here though, so don't be too hard on me, I'm not a philosopher.

 

This instinctive certainty brings about supreme success and "furthers through perseverance". However, not everything instinctive is nature in this higher sense of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven. Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune. Confucius says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not go with his deeds."

Love your whole response here Yen Hui. I can't think of anything to add to it, but I wanted to say I was really moved by this part that I quoted above. I think it's a crucial crucial piece of Taoist/Confucian wisdom that takes one beyond the mind when contemplated.

 

Sean

[fatherpaul]

the one

becomes two

 

 

 

sex is born

 

 

 

all things return to the one

 

 

no sex to discuss

[Pietro]

you'll refrain from commenting on Buddhist views of sex,

or any other traditions outside of Taoism.

I will not say, this is wrong according to their tradition.

With regard

to Cleary, can you tell me for certain that he does not practice any forms of Taoist cultivation? Nevertheless,

it is useless to try and say that Cleary does'nt know anything about Taoism, or in unqualified to comment on

Taoist praxis.

Making taoist practices does not make you a taoist. You can have a buddhist, or a christian, or a jew make taoists practices. If they superimpose to those practices their moral/ethical system, and the view of the world coming from their other tradition they migth claim they are both a taoist and a christian/buddhist/jew. But some part of the taoism have been lost in the process. Since morality and ethic is so unique in taoism respect to the other organized religion, it is commonly lost. Usually the reasoning process goes like this:

I know nothing about this (this is not always admitted, I was very happy when Bruce started teaching about morality in taoism, I knew nothing about that before, and I even ignored my own ignorance), in all those other traditions this is how it works, thus it should work like this in taoism, too. Which is ok as an educated guess. But it is nothing more, and in this case it does happen to be wrong.

 

Ok, talk to you later.

Pietro

P.S. My computer is kaput, so I am using a friend computer, but I might have problem logging in until after easter.

[Smile]

To qualify for spiritual cultivation using sex, one has to be completely free of lust and sexual desire. Their heart should also be open so they are able to connect with a partner at a heart level. If these requirenments are not met, then the connection will occure at a solar plexus/navel/dantian with energy strands ripping into "you" and connecting you with your partner energetically. Feeling "butterlies" in your stomach, no desire to eat, etc are all physical monifestations of this. When you "brake up", the energy strands are ripped away and will leave a hole that will take some time to repair. There all kind of "sick" feelings associated with this. So, the solar plexus/navel/dantian connection is not what you want, unless you want to hinder your spiritual progress.

M.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow, I'll really have to forward your thoughts to my friend! We turned the idea around more than once over more than one beer but never articulated anything as bright as this. Maybe we should have stopped after the first Tecate.

 

I do want to say though, I think there are critical problems even in "pointing to". The problems may not be as obvious. A more sophisticated smokescreen can be created pointing out processes. Process language is fuzzy and groundless (like reality) so it has a seductive quality that can more easily pass for reality itself. Whereas it's more readily apparent that intellectual definitions break down easily under scrutiny, in contrast even the most intelligent may create a beautiful web of shimmering translucent concepts and get stuck in it. Common sense tells us translucence is closer to clearness/clarity than that which is opaque, but I am reminded of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That the more one pursues and understanding of the momentum of something the less one can be precise about it's position (and vice versa). Perhaps, by analogy, the more one becomes proficient in understanding the process of Tao, the less sure they are of what that Tao IS, whereas the more precisely one knows what Tao is, the less aware they are of where it is going, what it is BECOMING. I am just being spontaneous and playing with words here though, so don't be too hard on me, I'm not a philosopher.

 

 

Agreed, and cool that you've noticed that process language is fuzzy like reality ! Fuzzy logic is still logic, not reality itself, yet it does tend to take one closer to reality than the linear kind... As Mehti Zadeh the father of the mathematical theory of fuzzy logic put it,

"When complexity strikes, meaningful statements lose precision and precise statements lose meaning."

And, to revert to the original context of the thread (sex among taoists, was it? ), another quote:

"Doctors know much more about the anatomy of sex than do Pacific Islanders, but this doesn't make them better lovers -- in fact I suspect they are much, much worse." -- Neil of the Summerhill

 

I'm no philosopher either, I'm a pragmatist to the bone --

to me, tao is what tao does, and isn't what she doesn't do. To revisit the Mexican food vs. non-Mexican food analogy, there's lots and lots of things tao chooses not to do -- much like a good cook knows where to stop, knows how to set the limits, not just how to do things but also how not to mess them up with anything excessive, superfluous, or random. Tao, like a good cook, chooses not to be erratic, inconsistent, unpredictable... and that's why your kids or mine are born human, not ostrich or oyster or something random and "creative..." She chooses not to replace the Sun with Bethelgeuse as our main gravitational attractor every other Thursday, and for this I'm profoundly grateful. She lets me go to bed as a woman and wake up a woman still, not an anthill, a wide screen TV, or a man for that matter. I love her for things she has the taste and tact and wisdom NOT to do as much as for doing things she does do.

 

Taoist sages are said to emulate that...

Edited March 27, 2007 by Taomeow

[Ian]

To qualify for spiritual cultivation using sex, one has to be completely free of lust and sexual desire.

 

I respectfully disagree. I believe a sincere wish to become so suffices to begin. Otherwise no-one will ever be ready.

 

Their heart should also be open so they are able to connect with a partner at a heart level. If these requirenments are not met, then the connection will occure at a solar plexus/navel/dantian with energy strands ripping into "you" and connecting you with your partner energetically. Feeling "butterlies" in your stomach, no desire to eat, etc are all physical monifestations of this.

 

Not necessarily, imo. These feelings can be old attachments, previously hidden away inside, being burned up by the purity of the new connection.

 

 

So, the solar plexus/navel/dantian connection is not what you want, unless you want to hinder your spiritual progress.

M.

 

Again, I respectfully disagree. The solar plexus connection can be the purest and most valuable, a true heart, if you will. It's just that the solar plexus has so much clutter in it, in the average person, that teachers tend to steer people away from it, for fear of having to deal with it their students' emotional garbage. But spiritual progress which doesn't address it will be abstract and ungrounded.

[freeform]

To qualify for spiritual cultivation using sex, one has to be completely free of lust and sexual desire. Their heart should also be open so they are able to connect with a partner at a heart level. If these requirenments are not met, then the connection will occure at a solar plexus/navel/dantian with energy strands ripping into "you" and connecting you with your partner energetically. Feeling "butterlies" in your stomach, no desire to eat, etc are all physical monifestations of this. When you "brake up", the energy strands are ripped away and will leave a hole that will take some time to repair. There all kind of "sick" feelings associated with this. So, the solar plexus/navel/dantian connection is not what you want, unless you want to hinder your spiritual progress.

M.

 

Thanks Max,

 

interestingly in hawaiian mystic traditions what you call 'energy strands' (and they call ka cords i think) are a big deal... they connect you to not only your lovers, but family, friends, and 'external attachments'... (and are located in the solar plexus/belly area)

 

Traditionally when you reach a higher vibration you cut all the cords... and then let them re-attach consciously, so that they dont drag you back down and instead operate in synchrony with your higher vibration.

[Yen Hui]

 

no sex to discuss

 

I must say Paul your simplicity and rigorous minimalism is, in one sense, most admirable!

[fatherpaul]

I must say Paul your simplicity and rigorous minimalism is, in one sense, most admirable!

 

no need to insult me until you understand me, then you , may at your leirsure.

[Pietro]

To qualify ...

the truth

...to hinder your spiritual progress.

M.

Max, would you mind exposing to us, mere mortals, your sources. It was requested at the beginning of this thread, and it seem that most people clarified what was their own opinion and what was coming from other sources. And I don't say this because I don't believe what you say has no place in the Taoist tradition but to put it better in context.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

Edited March 27, 2007 by Pietro

[Pietro]

The solar plexus connection can be the purest and most valuable, a true heart, if you will. It's just that the solar plexus has so much clutter in it, in the average person, that teachers tend to steer people away from it, for fear of having to deal with it their students' emotional garbage. But spiritual progress which doesn't address it will be abstract and ungrounded.

 

Ian, I really do not understand. And please I would appreciate if you could help me on this. You see, maybe I have a different experience about the emotional world, and the emotional body. And maybe I have different values, too. But I don't see all this garbage in the solar plexus. Each human being has a unique energy. It is that one energy that makes human being so yummy. And yes, that energy is a mixture of their primordial energy and of all those blockages. All those experiences that made them who they are. Now some people feel nice, and some don't. Some people you don't want to get near, and some, it is painful to be far. Plato and Max, like each other. Sean and Lezlie search for each other, and so on. Friendship, love. You always have this attraction going on. Now, in my experience I have touched many solar plexus. Either massaging, loving, or just doing it. Except for one occasion it was always a very pleasent experience. I always felt there the best, more purest energy of the person. That energy that is behind all the other energies, the energy that pushes you to go and look for a person, even if this means having to face all the shit that they might be dealing with. I always felt the solar plexus energy was a treat.

 

I said, except for one time. That one time I was doing a Chi Nei Chang massage, out of friendship, to a friend of mine. A beautiful girl I had a oneitis for, for more than a decade. That time as soon as I touched I bounced back. There was something in her body that I really did not want to touch. 3 days later she got raped. I did make my massage to her. Some days later, and maybe it helped her going through the experience. I don't know. I suspect that what I felt was what was going to happen. Was some part of karma that was being grounded, and my body just protected itself. I can't find any other explenation. But that was just one case. In all the others, it was the most pleasent, unique energy. Really defining that person as a single human being in the whole universe.

 

Maybe my attainment is so low that in truth I am just a garbage worm who finds its greatest pleasure in composting others garbage. Because I truly can't understand all this solar plexus-phobia going on.

 

Do you think you, or maybe your teacher, could unravel all this.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

[Yen Hui]

Hi there to All You Wayfaring Seekers ~ Just wanted to say thanks for your thought-provoking replies. As

someone has recently expressed to me, they provide some excellent pointers for further study!

 

First of all I would like to point out that Thomas Cleary

is not a Taoist, he is a translatior of taoists texts. But he also (mainly) translates Buddhists texts, Confucianists

and Muslim. So, please, I need to ask you to refrain from using him as a source for I would just not consider

the citation relevant on the base that the translator is looking at Taoism from outside in, and not from inside in.

 

Pietro ~ Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to share with us the teachings of Master Frantzis. I hold

him in high regard, for sure! Sorry, btw, to hear about your computer going 'kaput'. Tell your friend, for us,

that we all appreciate his/her lending you one. If you can't reply again til after Easter, no problem; we'll

understand why.

 

Now, to return again to your 'first' post, I've read the Wikipedia article you recommended, as well as the 'Rare

Interview with Cleary' (linked to that article) and neither one of them says anything specific, that I can

remember, about his spiritual practice(s) and affiliation(s). I'm talking about specific details, rather than vague

intimations, if any at all.

 

While Cleary does say, in 'the Interview', that he exists or operates 'independently', in regard to group

affiliations, or the lack thereof. Such a statement is utterly vague at best, however, and cannot possibly serve

as the basis for determining his spiritual commitment(s) and affiliation(s). If you would'nt mind, though, could

you please explain for us how you know he's not really a Taoist.

 

Does translating more Buddhist writings than Taoist ones mean he's not a Taoist? If being a Buddhist means

you're not a Taoist, then how do you explain the Teacher of Master Frantzis? "His teacher was both a taoist and

a neo-taoist ... He was also a buddhist and a confucianist ... a remarkable person." Is'nt it possible that the

same situation might apply to Cleary; unless, of course, you have some more definite information to go on,

obtained from a reliable source?

 

Everything that I say please consider it as coming from what I learned from my teacher, Master Bruce Kumar

Frantzis. Who is a Master, Taoist Priest, Taoist Lineage holder. If I add anything that is not coming from him

(directly or indirectly -his students-), I shall point it out.[in brackets]

 

Thanks, that would be appreciated! References to his written publications, if possible, would be equally

appreciated!

 

Making taoist practices does not make you a taoist.

 

This remark/reply leads me to suspect you're unsure about Cleary's spiritual 'commitments'. However, if

practicing 'Taoism' does not make us 'Taoists', in some genuine or real way, then what does?

 

You can have a buddhist, or a christian, or a jew make taoists practices.

 

Yes, just like Master Bruce's Teacher. So far, I understand.

 

If they superimpose to those practices their moral/ethical system, and the view of the world coming from their

other tradition they migth claim they are both a taoist and a christian/buddhist/jew. But some part of the

taoism have been lost in the process. Since morality and ethic is so unique in taoism respect to the other

organized religion, it is commonly lost.

 

It sounds as though you're saying Cleary is guilty of superimposing or fusing a foreign "moral/ethical system"

to whatever aspects of Taoism he might practice. Once again, though, I would like to know on what ground(s)

you base such a determination? Perhaps there is good ground(s) for it, but they're presently unknown to me,

so some material evidence would help a little.

 

I have owned a few of his books over the years, but cannot recall, off-hand, reading much, if anything, of an

autobiographical nature that would lend support to such an assessment of his commitments. But I am quite

open to learning 'new' things.

 

Usually the reasoning process goes like this: I know nothing about this (this is not always admitted, I was very

happy when Bruce started teaching about morality in taoism, I knew nothing about that before, and I even

ignored my own ignorance), in all those other traditions this is how it works, thus it should work like this in

taoism, too. Which is ok as an educated guess. But it is nothing more, and in this case it does happen to be

wrong.

 

Well, I feel certain Cleary is not guilty of the above "reasoning process". He's one of the world's best or

foremost authorities on the Buddhist and Taoist Canons, and you don't get to that level by stooping to new

levels of intellectual laziness and dishonesty. He is not as meticulous, I admit, as I wish he was, with critical

notations and documentations, but he holds his own and better among the heavyweights in those fields. At

least that's how I presently view him, until I learn differently or better.

 

I would also like to divide between taoism and neo-taoism. Neo-taoism, as you know (because of the

references that you make) came out about 1000 years ago, by the joining of Taoist Alchemy, Taoist Qi

Gung, Confucianist morality, and Buddhist empty mind meditations (and probably more).[shambhala

guide to Taoism]

 

This is a subject of deep interest to me, to be honest. According to my limited research, though, the seeds of

Neo-Taoism were already sown in the time(s) of Chuang Tzu and Lieh Tzu; if Neo-Taoism means departing, in

some way (or measure), from the precise form of Taoism which is transmitted to us through the Tao Te Ching.

Scholars admit some philosophical differences between Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. This is even true of Eva Wong,

according to what I read in her Shambhala Guide to Taoism. Regarding Ms. Eva Wong's Guide, it is not without

defect, as for example, in her treatment (or lack thereof) of the Huainanzi. If you disagree, then tell us

what she says about the Huai-Nan-Tzu.

 

But if the Law of Change was not already at work in the Chuang Tzu, if was no doubt clearly manifest in the

Huai-Nan-Tzu; if not in the Huai-Nan-Tzu, then in the publication of the 2nd century Triplex Unity;

and most certainly in the 3rd and 4th century writings of Wang Pi (d. 249 AD) and Kuo Hsiang (d. 312 AD). The

point I'm making is that since Taoism is a living force, it has passed through several transformations. So, in my

personal opinion, the sages of Complete Reality Taoism were no less Taoist in spirit and practrice than either

Kuo Hsiang and Wang Pi.

 

What I find interesting, though, is that the Neo-Taoist writings are included in the "official" taoist Canon, and I

feel that must, in some degree, admit their completely Taoist character and organic unity with the historical

flow of complete reality and traditional Taoist praxis.

 

I am, and study, Taoism, not Neo-taoism. My teacher is a Taoist teacher. His teacher was both a taoist and a

neo-taoist, as he was proficient in both ways. He was also a buddhist and a confucianist. Quite a remarkable

person.

 

Question: If Taoism, Neo-Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism are so contradictory, as some people here are

inclined to say, how did the Teacher of Master Frantzis manage to reconcile/unify them; or how do you justify

his practice of the four paths?

[Taomeow]

Question: If Taoism, Neo-Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism are so contradictory, as some people here are

inclined to say, how did the Teacher of Master Frantzis manage to reconcile/unify them; or how do you justify

his practice of the four paths?

 

 

Throw in the fifth: he lived in Communist China since 1947 and got along with maoism and maoists. You just do what you gotta do as your public persona. His private persona, however, was that of a taoist, secret leader of a secretive taoist sect that managed to survive the times when so many didn't. I believe the guiding principle here was the I Ching's line I sometimes think of as the single most important one:

"Conceal your light."

 

Taoists who "reconcile" and "unify" other paths do just that... follow the "party line" of their original book of canon, the I Ching, and conceal their light. The taoist path has been precarious and often perilous for hundreds of years. More often than not it was a forbidden path, then there were times when it was allowed only if it was careful not to run counter to the imperially sanctioned ones of buddhism and Confucianism. You could be a taoist on the side and that was OK; if you challenged with your taoist stance any of the other ones, you were in big trouble. You simply weren't in the position to be a "taoist taoist" and survive under many, many historic circumstances. Hence the compromise and the broad acceptance of "whatever path is approved by the powers that be." Inside this acceptance, however, there always survived a taoist taoist (hidden and secret) practice and the taoist taoist (hidden and secret) person. Some of the taoist immortals and even some of the taoist gods had chosen this path, notably immortal females who were seldom in the position to openly practice taoism when they were still mere mortals. The history of taoism is full of stories of women who risked their lives practicing taoism in secret of the (buddhist or confucian) husband who would simply kill them if he found out, and a few stories of taoist powers developed through such practice kicking in in the nick of time and saving the tao gal just when the husband DID find out and saw only one "pefectly correct" response -- murder. Yeah... to understand why something is the way it is, one must first and foremost find out what it's been up against historically, what was it that made it "accept" or "not accept" any conditions for its existence.

 

As one of my teachers put it, "look for answers in the river underneath the river... in the night within the night."

 

I have a question to you too, Yen Hui.

 

The Chinese character for "buddha" is comprized of two radicals, one meaning "human," and the other one meaning "not." What's your interpretation of this interesting original way to translate the idea of buddha into Chinese (to which it is not native)?

 

In "taoist taoism," we have "wizards," not "buddhas." The Chinese character for "wizard" is comprized of two radicals, one meaning "human" and the other one meaning "mountain." What do you make of it?

Edited March 28, 2007 by Taomeow

[Smile]

Pietro,

Jeffrey Yuen mentioned it, Nan Huan-Chin is saying this, but I dismissed it for a long time until now I can see for myself observing other people's energy interactions. Do I need to read some scriptures to prove something that I can see myself? These days almost no one is capable of reaching those levels of purity. Again, I'm talking about spiritual cultivation to reach highest levels of attainment using sex as a method. That's why who knows the methods won't teach it at all as no one is ready for that type of training.

 

Hope this is good enough for you,

Max