Practical Taoism and Sex

[Yen Hui]

Then again, maybe you do.

 

Edited May 21, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Wayfarer64]

I too am working to get myself to China. But I am afeared that my political bent will get me in trouble there. So... I am having some second thoughts about emersion into Chinese life.

 

Darebak- I think you are being unfair to this forum... I think (& feel),- this forum is for a taoist-leaning give & take of ideas. If some entries seem profound to you, that is nice too.

 

The unkind ring of your words reminds me of Denty, who you seem to follow somewhat. The lack of compassion in this rant is off-balance. It may also be somewhat profound for some. but to me it misses the point of these threads. I for one - am not here to teach/preach to other folks, nor to glean profound truths from them. I participate only to share on this common ground how we are relating to input from elsewhere, as well as with each-other... mostly about what we are learning of Taoism.

 

The un-kind & ego-centric nature of many of Denty's responses I have addressed ad nausium, and I find that he has found a kinder voice recently. Now you seem to have taken up the slack in promoting the truth of that path over the truths of other paths. You may even be right.

 

I see no reason for such an attack on the nature of this forum, except maybe your own frustrations, I hope that you will work through this transitional period. There is enough kindness and tolerance here to absorb the seemingly contemptuous rant, that you obviously needed to vent.

 

It probably helps to get het-up sometimes. I for one take no umbrage.

Edited April 6, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Yen Hui]

here here

 

did you say something?

[Yen Hui]

If you think you know better than Chia, Ni, and Cleary, then you are most clearly and profoundly self-deluded.

 

Cleary basically translates texts from his out-of-context perspective and reduces everything to a buddhist

influenced version of western psychology.

 

Just look at his commentary on "Secret of The Golden Flower" for proof of that.

 

Try again.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Yen Hui

[fatherpaul]

did you say something?

 

there is some merit in what he says

his method is a bit rough though.

[Yen Hui]

there is some merit in what he says

 

I may be a little near-sighted, but I'm not blind. It's merit(s) have yet to be demonstrated.

But somehow I don't think he's able to exercise enough self-control to get the job done.

Edited April 6, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[fatherpaul]

Hey I warned you that it was a rant

Honestly when I wrote that I was reading through the thread and it struck me that we all tend to fancy ourselves as being some kind of authority on Taoism. And at times it is nothing short of a pissing contest.

We take these few English translations, develop an understanding of what they mean based on our own interpretations and label that Taoism. And then argue about whose concept is the most accurate! Some people get a teacher and it seems that most of the teachers here in the US are also outsiders who fancy themselves as authorities on Taoism based on a relatively small degree of contact with some sort of Taoist information.

 

I just feel like the only sincere approach, for me anyway, is to say "Ok, the stuff I've read, the stuff I've discussed on the web, the stuff I have learned from mediocre teachers and so on, is not Taoism, and even if it is, I am learning it out of context, making at at best useless at worst dangerous. The only way to truly learn is find some way to enter the tradition and hopefully receive the transmission in the proper context, etc."

 

I think it is wonderful to discuss ideas and perceptions, etc. But damn, nobody here is really an authority on this stuff.

 

I am not emulating SeanDenty but I sort of see where he is coming from, though I don't have the information that he does.

 

I guess other than expressing frustration, I ultimately I wanted to remind everyone/myself that we westerners are at a point of just barely getting a glimmer of what this Taoism is really about and that we are better off if we don't presume to be anything more than outsiders trying to understand something ancient and vast beyond all possible speculation.

 

"We're just babies, We're just babies, man..

Digable Planets

 

well said

but i would take it a step further

the "core" of taoism is living and being

it is available to everyman

it is there in each of us to discover this thing (or not)

the tao has no system or practice

but is pure unto itself.

 

unless i interprent '"tao" the unspoken' wrong

but as it is within the realm of all possibilties that one can be deluded..

yes this is always present (murphys law: if things can go wrong they will)

thus it is said know thyself, this is the most ancient of all "systems"

[Yen Hui]

Hey there Taomeow ~

 

Contrary to opinion, I have'nt forgotten about you! I'm just a "slow-poke", as the saying goes. Actually, I

just needed a bit of time to reflect on my reply. Hastey responses tend to beget misunderstanding, so I hope

you won't mind too much, that I just needed a bit of time to stabilize perception. Anyway, in order to kick it off

again, I just wish to express a heart-felt thanks for some very interesting contributions to the thread, despite

some minor differences; well, they seem minor to me, in light of the bigger picture.

 

She is a descendant of Genghis Khan (who half-converted to taoism upon conquering China), most of her

lineage is Tibet-educated and later Russian-educated Buryats from Eastern Siberia; one of her ancestors was

the teacher to the Dalai Lama in the early 20th century. (The fact that essentially shaped Tibet's political and

spiritual affiliations for decades.) Most people in her lineage who were prominent were killed circa 1937, while

some of those who kept things quiet survived. I am not allowed to talk about her in detail. Sorry...

 

Thanks for the information on your teacher. I'm just wondering about the "secrecy" vow. Can you elaborate

for us on what you mean by "not allowed to talk about her in detail?" Did you undergo some formal ritual vow

of swearing in to secrecy? Anyway, I'm a little confused about something: Is your teacher a Taoist, a Tibetan

Buddhist, or both? It's the ancestor who taught the Dalai Lama that has me wondering about this.

 

It is specifically the peoples influenced by Genghis Khan's endeavours who never lost the tradition of familial

record-keeping and have often viewed it as the single most important thing to do with one's own history. They

never forgot their lineage and never lost track of where they're coming from, regardless of whether they were

royalty or peasants, literate record-keepers or illiterate oral transmitters, legitimate heirs or out-of-wedlock

illegitimate offspring. That's how they still know... they never broke the chain of lineage awareness. Matter

of fact, with the exception of the culturally European-derived (and currently prevailing elsewhere too) disdain

for one's ancestral lineage, all peoples on Earth used to keep accurate track at all times.

 

This is very interesting! Thanks. It kind of reminds me, though, of the ancient Hebrews. The same emphasis

was placed on family lineages, in honour of the Patriarch's, i.e Jewish fathers and lineages descending from

Abraham, Isaac, Israel, and Joseph (from whose loins the Twelve Tribes sprung up). I cannot comment on

whether all Chinese families practiced a similar diligence, though I tend to think they did, if they were at all

serious about honoring the Ancestors. At any rate, it seems likely to me that Master Ni's family would have

kept meticulous records of their lineage; and especially with regard to the generational transmission of "the

Teachings". To answer your question, though, no I have never checked out his lineage to see if it could be

verified.

 

For instance, in Somalia, as recently as until the devastation of the last war, every tribe taught every child his

or her complete familial affiliations (with all uncles, aunts, cousins, second, third, fourth... up to the tenth

cousin!) beginning at the age of four. This was considered the most important part of the child's education. By

six, they were supposed to know by heart, forever. By the time they were to marry, they were supposed to

know who in what neighboring tribe is related to them and how, so as not to marry the wrong person. Beyond

the tenth cousin (sic!) they could, but closer, they couldn't.

 

While I have'nt tried to check-out the above, or confirm what you're saying here, it seems entirely believeable

to me, (I must admit,) merely from the standpoint of my own limited knowledge. But again, without knowing

the actual facts, admittedly, I can visualize a similar practice being maintained in Master Ni's ancestral web.

 

So, like with master Ni, I'm talking something I "can't prove," except the difference is I don't "officially claim" a

lineage from this teacher and he does claim one from some lineage or other he doesn't care to prove. I

dunno... the sheer math when he cites an unbroken lineage of seventy-plus generations seems WAY off... but

in case I'm wrong again, ...

 

With all due respect, I have no idea if Master Ni can prove he's a "lineage" holder. Do we even know if there

are any "official" disputes or challenges to his claim? I mean, if his claims go uncontested, that is to say, if

there is'nt anyone else claiming to be the rightful lineage holder of his sect/tradition, then he wins by default,

does'nt he? Assuming he has'nt created a bogus lineage for himself.

 

And I'm not even sure if an unwillingness to prove it to me means he cannot prove it. Is the ability to prove

the claim some kind of unwritten obligation that he must prove it to to everyone who challenges the claim?

Also, being a "lineage holder" means something more to me than just being a student of a "lineage holder".

There is a big difference, in my limited perspective of that one.

 

I would personally like to know what the traditional Chinese practice is for confirming lineage claims? When a

student first approaches a teacher, in the traditional way, to be taken on as a disciple, does the teacher usually

start out by proving his lineage to the student? Or, is it the student's duty/responsibility to request the teacher

establish/prove it before undergoing the formal ritual of being received into discipleship?

 

And, if Ni ever was so kind and forthright as to post or send me the whole lineage, with every name and all the

relevant dates and details, is it even practically possible, from my standpoint in time and space, to confirm the

genealogical data, going back 75 generations? These questions, and other similar ones, ultimately lean me in

the same direction as others, towards placing a lesser degree of importance on lineage, than perhaps persons

born and living in China today might. That is not to say, though, I think it's irrelevant to the bigger picture; but

only that it's importance must be viewed as relative at best, from our standpoint in time and space. I mean, if

I'm learning Tai Chi from someone who is quite obviously a Tai Chi master, from the performance standpoint,

is it really that important or necessary for me to sweat about his/her lineage?

 

... can you please refer me to the page (if in existence) where his lineage is spelled out with names and

dates? If you can't because HE can't, it's hearsay with no way for anyone to know whether it's true. Maybe

it's true. Or maybe he made it up. Unless he can show who his teacher was and who his teacher's teacher

was and so on, it's better not to claim lineage at all.

 

What if Ni says he can, but choses not to demonstrate it to me? Does that necessarily mean he cannot prove

it? I don't see how. But like I say, even if he gave me all the details, how far am I personally obligated to do

the homework to corroborate all the genealogical links? I would'nt even know where to begin, to tell the truth.

 

What I'd like to know, though, is if anyone has ever formally contested or challenged his lineage claims before

and how he responded to them? If anyone has information on that, please bring it forward! It would sure prove

to be very interesting, to say the least.

 

Similarly, Buryats, who kept accurate familial records since before the times of Genghis Khan, used to know

exactly who they were and weren't related to throughout history. And, similarly, students of ancient arts and

sciences were after "the real thing," the ancient thing. It used to be universally accepted (as I mentioned in

some other thread I think) that we're in the period of degradation, deterioration, devolving from a "golden

age" (a 100% universal belief till German educators began revising it some 150 years ago), and so in order to

gain wisdom, one must seek ancient knowledge, not "innovation and creativity." Most modern people were

raised to firmly believe in the latter. I, however, am on the same wavelength as the former. I'm after old,

OLD stuff... the older the better. And a "lineage" simply offers some "warranty" of sorts to anyone who is not

after innovation and creativity but is after tradition and authenticity instead. A matter of personal preference,

is all...

 

I'm all for the "ancient" stuff, really, but I'm just not as down as you seem to be on the idea of progress; nor

am I so sure that all "innovation" is necessarily bad, but I can certainly appreciate your high view of antiquity.

I agree that our age is far from the times of Fu Hsi and the Yellow Emperor; but does that necessarily mean

that each generation of Taoist sages, from great antiquity until today, have somehow lost something? Or were

somehow less spiritually achieved than their predecessors and great ancestors?

 

My taijiquan/qigong teacher is the 19th generation in his lineage -- a documented one. This I can prove,

because he can and his teacher can and his teacher's teacher can, and trace it all the way back to Chang San

Feng. It's a big deal to some, no big deal to others.

 

My kung-fu teacher is a second generation disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu, and can prove it.

 

fraternally ~ Yen Hui

Edited April 8, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Taomeow]

Catching up a bit... was away from my computer.

 

Freeform,

 

always enjoy talking to you, even if we disagree!

I would have to write way too much to explain why I'm with those classics who assert that "in the human society tao has been destroyed," and not with those slave-owners who have come up with a way to placate the slaves by convincing them they are free and happy courtesy of techno progress. But in a nutshell, I know what "natural life" means because I remember. Not in my mind, in my every cell. Natural is a feeling, not a concept. What's the difference between hair color one is born with and hair color one gets at a salon or off a drug store shelf? One is natural, the other one is not. Your eye (and everybody else's) may be fooled, your senses may be fooled, but a level of you that knows, knows. You won't see it in the mirror, you won't see it in other people's eyes, but your every cell knows you're a brunette, not a blonde. Some people occasionally get in touch with THIS level of knowledge about self and the world. It is from this level that I assert a dyed age, in every "now" moment, is not a "natural" age, its every moment is dyed... intoxicated, muddled, messed up, poisoned, confused, electro- over-stimulated, sun-moon-stars-seasons-under- stimulated, injected, fumigated, deprived, overloaded... too much and not enough, too much carving on Laozi's "uncarved block" from before birth! -- what do you think a diet of chemicals of a pregnant woman is carving on the "natural" baby? Oh... all sorts of things that have little to do with "natural life." Rosy spectacles?.. No -- the age when no one needed any, because everybody's eyes were those of tigers and falcons in human form! An age before "recorded history" (for "recorded history" starts when natural life ends)... I wonder what a six-year-old in India put to work at a matches-making factory fourteen hours a day (with sulphur fumes in the air and no "now" moment different from any other "now" moment of inhaling them) or some such, of whom there are about a hundred and twenty million I am told, knows about the joys of natural living. Or ever will. I wonder what an American two-year-old with toxins of eighteen kinds of diseases from around the world of time and space swimming in her blood on a forever basis knows about what it feels like to NOT have them in her blood. To compare anything to anything, one needs a frame of reference, one needs to be able to compare his or her "modern as-is state" to any other state he or she ISN'T in before asserting it's "natural" or "unnatural," "normal" or "abnormal." So... what's yours? How do you know you're living a "natural life" -- which part of you thinks that?

[thelerner]

DNA, DNA, dna

 

We need cheek swabs from both of your instructors. Then we need to dig up their illustrious ancestors. Then a simple comparison, no problem. If Khan's tomb hasn't been found we just need to dig up his brother or sister.

 

M.

[Wayfarer64]

DNA, DNA, dna

 

We need cheek swabs from both of your instructors. Then we need to dig up their illustrious ancestors. Then a simple comparison, no problem. If Khan's tomb hasn't been found we just need to dig up his brother or sister.

 

M.

 

Hey there Michael-

But where is the SEX!? This thread is about the practicality of Taoist sex not saliva swabing... I have a serious offer to donate my sperm to be analized... I will need a willing donee for extraction in a purely Taoist manner, and for research purposes only, of course...

[Spectrum]

So... what's yours? How do you know you're living a "natural life" -- which part of you thinks that

 

Reduce to Zero to contemplate 1. Flying Simplified.

[freeform]

Taomeow,

 

Thanks, I also enjoy your posts and your perspective is very valuable indeed. My disagreements are only attempts to 'round out' a perspective... I have no interest in being 'right' - this holds no value for me.

 

I have a feeling that your view of 'natural' is tied closely to your practice... you have shamanic roots to your practice, right?

 

I have a patchy model for understanding the evolution of humanity - based on the three dan tiens... The pre-historic natural cultures you talked about were based deeply in the lower dan tien, connected to the earth and and its natural cycles... after the rise of agriculture we started living in larger groups connecting much more through culture and relationship, based mainly in the middle dan tien... We now live in a time where the focus is shifted into the upper dan tien... This is something new... the head is like the youngster of the three, unruly, constantly grasping and controlling... the noise of the head has drowned out the other two dan tiens.

 

So I believe we cant go back to the belly based culture just as the butterfly cant go back to being a catterpillar, so what I have to do is explore the head more closely, whilst developing the core channel linking all the three dan tiens... We're new humans, and it's important for us to learn the wisdom of the past and cultivate in the present (accepting all the unnaturalness as a natural phenomenon of change)...

 

sorry to go off topic here - maybe a new thread is in order?

[Wayfarer64]

Hi there all-

 

Freeform - I did start a new thread about the natualist elements we are discussing here- see forum...THE NATURE OF BEING NATUARAL

I like very much the idea of humanity having a new basis of being tied to the Dan Tiens. It reminds me of a book about some problems we face in evolutionary terms as a species, I will try to find the title ASAP...

 

I do believe that we are facing what some may call a paradigm shift in how the world is working and what we must do to preserve the ecological base and the further evolution of our own species.

 

For me, a "natural" way of being is a matter of intention and the sense of being one with nature that is becoming more rare in our world. The self as part of the natural world and not an outside factor seems to be in doubt for some folks. If there is a doubt than I think there is a problem. We are all one thing in a basic Taoist sense that the universe is one thing, or even the innumerable potential universes are still one thing - stemming from the source- that which we have named the Tao...

 

So, back to this thread's theme- sharing our bodies and energies and thus each-other in a transcendant act of love is Taoist in the extreme. Uniting two selves is as uniting two universes. Combining our lives into families and cultures is the most natural thing in the world. Not all of us are any good at some elements involved in this building of families, but there is a place for each in the "cosmic" whole of existance...

Edited April 12, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[exorcist_1699]

I think the so-called neo-taoist 's achievement is that they built up a theoretical framework of zhen( sexual energy)- qi -spirit which guides our pratice well. Without it , philosophical " taoism " is forvever left in the realm of idea , unable to stepping into reality . Of course, whether you believe in it or not is really depending on the level of your practice.

 

The framework was so well built that by following it , people can reach immortality easier ; afraid of what would be happening and the " punishment from the Heaven " , the masters therefore deliberatley invented a system of strange jargons , blocking people and testing their commitnt to it .

[Taomeow]

 

I have a patchy model for understanding the evolution of humanity - based on the three dan tiens...

 

That's interesting, and probably true.

 

I've read some scientific paper or other asserting that while modern people are overwhelmingly "visual," getting 85% of all their information through the eyes (that are indeed governed by the upper dantien, incidentally), our "prehistoric" ancestors were 85% kinesthetic, getting most of their information through touch, motion (and non-motion), internal and external visceral senses -- communicating with, first and foremost, their children this way (for children were carried on the mother's body pretty much at all times before they could walk), gravity, magnetic fields, temperature gradients, each other, and "the way things feel." Information was feeling and feeling was information... learning, competence, truth... Perhaps one reason I feel "prehistoric" and have all the spiritual leanings of a cave woman is that, according to NLP, I am primarily kinesthetic. (I usually remember directions for getting somewhere where I've driven by car in the following manner: "flat ground, pothole, pothole, left turn, flat ground, uphill, scraped road surface, right turn, downhill, bump, big bump, left turn, long downward slope, bump, here we are." Except all of these I register as somatosensory instructions, not verbal.)

 

The Hindu cosmology has its eight yugas, cosmic periods, which they calculate based on our planet's proximity to (first and foremost) the sun but also other stuff in our immediate galaxy and beyond. This way they determine the kind of time we're in. So according to this system, currently we're in a dark ascending yuga, if I remember correctly. Whew. The second worst. Could have been worse. Could have been the dark descending one. In any event, a dark ascending yuga is no golden age, according to their calculations. The earliest dawn of the next golden age, should we make it there, is about seven thousand years away...

 

Taoist time investigations are a separate topic for some future time I guess...

Edited April 13, 2007 by Taomeow