Practical Taoism and Sex

[Smile]

Ian: I believe a sincere wish to become so suffices to begin. Otherwise no-one will ever be ready.

Hi Ian,

No one is ever ready. And that's why the real system will never comes out publicly. What you see out is not even close.

The wish in this case is not good enough. It's what you bring to the table through your regular meditation practices- that's what matters. I would say the level beyound the first dhyana. But at those levels, no one cares about sex, anyway.

Max

[Ian]

Ian, I really do not understand. And please I would appreciate if you could help me on this. You see, maybe I have a different experience about the emotional world, and the emotional body. And maybe I have different values, too. But I don't see all this garbage in the solar plexus. Each human being has a unique energy. It is that one energy that makes human being so yummy. And yes, that energy is a mixture of their primordial energy and of all those blockages. All those experiences that made them who they are. Now some people feel nice, and some don't. Some people you don't want to get near, and some, it is painful to be far. Plato and Max, like each other. Sean and Lezlie search for each other, and so on. Friendship, love. You always have this attraction going on. Now, in my experience I have touched many solar plexus. Either massaging, loving, or just doing it. Except for one occasion it was always a very pleasent experience. I always felt there the best, more purest energy of the person. That energy that is behind all the other energies, the energy that pushes you to go and look for a person, even if this means having to face all the shit that they might be dealing with. I always felt the solar plexus energy was a treat.

 

I said, except for one time. That one time I was doing a Chi Nei Chang massage, out of friendship, to a friend of mine. A beautiful girl I had a oneitis for, for more than a decade. That time as soon as I touched I bounced back. There was something in her body that I really did not want to touch. 3 days later she got raped. I did make my massage to her. Some days later, and maybe it helped her going through the experience. I don't know. I suspect that what I felt was what was going to happen. Was some part of karma that was being grounded, and my body just protected itself. I can't find any other explenation. But that was just one case. In all the others, it was the most pleasent, unique energy. Really defining that person as a single human being in the whole universe.

 

Maybe my attainment is so low that in truth I am just a garbage worm who finds its greatest pleasure in composting others garbage. Because I truly can't understand all this solar plexus-phobia going on.

 

Do you think you, or maybe your teacher, could unravel all this.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

 

I don't think there's a big mystery. I think you're able to tune into what's underneath the garbage and appreciate it. You're not focussed on garbage, so it's not a problem. I completely agree with what you say. It ain't called solar plexus for nothing. Think about those words. Even in our rigid cartesian anglo-saxon language, someone has noted a cosmic quality to this part of us.

 

 

I must say Paul your simplicity and rigorous minimalism is, in one sense, most admirable!

 

Must admit, I find it a wee tiny bit of a pain in the arse too.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Ian

[Pietro]

It ain't called solar plexus for nothing. Think about those words. Even in our rigid cartesian anglo-saxon language, someone has noted a cosmic quality to this part of us.

I am no anatomist, but I think the name is coming from the structure of the nerves there. I recall that many nerves converge into a central point, giving a solar look to the point. But I might be totally off.

Must admit, I find it a wee tiny bit of a pain in the arse too.

 

LORL!

[Pietro]

Pietro,

Jeffrey Yuen mentioned it, Nan Huan-Chin is saying this, but I dismissed it for a long time until now I can see for myself observing other people's energy interactions. Do I need to read some scriptures to prove something that I can see myself?

 

Actually yes. At least reference them when it is possible. We seem to agree that there is an external truth. But then we tend to disagree with what exactly this truth is. Not only we disagree, but often our teacher seem to disagree, at least upfront. And then, when you dig deeper you might find that the reality is so much more complex that there is space for both statements, just in different moment, in different contexts, etc.

 

One time I went to Bruce and said, Bruce, from when I started practicing those meditations, all the tao te ching started to make much more sense. I felt I understood what the author meant.

He looked me with an amused look, and said: How do you know that what you are understanding is really what the author meant.

The fact that something makes sense does not mean that that is the sense that was originally meant. By giving references you are stepping out from the preaching position, into the more human position of a practitioner who has his studies, his practices and his understandings and awakenings. And you permit to other people to go deeper by letting them understand what is your interpretation, and what is the original message.

I find it to be a very healthy and humbling discipline. I invite you to take it up, like most people in this forum are doing.

 

 

with love,

Pietro

[Smile]

The fact that something makes sense does not mean that that is the sense that was originally meant. By giving references you are stepping out from the preaching position, into the more human position of a practitioner who has his studies, his practices and his understandings and awakenings.

One only needs a reference if they can't connect with what i'm saying because they either had different experiences or haven't experienced that to the same level. If there is no trust, I can share all the awakenings they can handle and still they will be asking: Says who? Fortunatelly, people around me experienced the same so there is no questions of reference.

 

And you permit to other people to go deeper by letting them understand what is your interpretation, and what is the original message.

I find it to be a very healthy and humbling discipline. I invite you to take it up, like most people in this forum are doing.

I write my messages the way they flow out. You are welcome to ask questions if you need further explanations. These days i'm more interested in the energy of the message then the words- this way it's hard to misinterpret the messanger, no matter what they write.

I hope you are doing well with your PU stuff. I know your are natural for this.

Max

[Wayfarer64]

Searching for something else, I found this link and thought of this thread-...

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KW..._6/ai_n15394266

 

It seems to be a basic definition and may be of value to clarify terms and attitudes as Sean has suggested...

 

In any case, my first reaction to making love - way back in the late 60's was

 

"Sex is good!" What I was reacting to was the emotional warmth and joy of shared being, more than the physical release of tension and newness of the joining experience. Even in the beginning I realized the potential of oneness. But I had been studying the Yi Jing for a couple of years before I became sexually active.

 

Techniques were added later... It is the interactive flow of being and shared experience that remains the focus of physical love for me.

[Pietro]

Hi there to All You Wayfaring Seekers ~ Just wanted to say thanks for your thought-provoking replies. As

someone has recently expressed to me, they provide some excellent pointers for further study!

Pietro ~ Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to share with us the teachings of Master Frantzis. I hold

him in high regard, for sure! Sorry, btw, to hear about your computer going 'kaput'. Tell your friend, for us,

that we all appreciate his/her lending you one. If you can't reply again til after Easter, no problem; we'll

understand why.

 

Yen Hui, thank you for the thoughtful answer. Eventually I got the computer fixed, but I am leaving in less than one hour for England, where I should attend my half-yearly workshop with Bruce. I really like your answer and I will answer, as much as I can, point by point to your questions. In the meantime Taomeow (great name, btw) post was really good. Although, of course, I can expect other people to defend my claims. I will, just in time .

Since some of the conversation seem to have gravitated around the figure of Liu Hung Chieh, Bruce's teacher. I think I'll add the link to his page where you can find a summary of his story. You have also asked for references to on his written work. I think you do understand that will not always be possible. SOme of the most interesting things have never been written. We are being told those things, on and on. And they make a coherent whole to which we are slowly introduced. But, for example, until few years ago Bruce was not teaching anything about Taoist morality, Taoist ethics, and (what I consider the most interesting and ground breaking) Taoist analysis on believes.

 

Btw, the comment:

making taoist practices does not make you a taoist, was not coming from me, but from him directly. He explained so. But the following obvious question: so what does? was never asked. I can tell you my answer, as well as my understanding of his remark. With the obvious underline understanding that it might be totally off. As I am with Bruce, those next 5 days (and then I shall not see him again for 6 months), I will probably have the possibility to ask him 1 question not related to the course he is teaching. I really hope he might also expand more on believes and taoism, but I might ask him the crucial question: if doing taoist practices does not make you a Taoist, so what does?

 

ok. 35 minutes to go.

And I need to finish packing.

Take care, you bunch of crazy crazy taoists, you are all near my heart.

 

Pietro

[Wayfarer64]

Pietro & Yen Hui-

 

thank you for all the great input here-

 

Doing and being seem entwined to me. Still I can see a potential person trying to practice a "Taoist" system of meditation and/or sexual techniques etc... that are not natural to them and therefore they are not in their own Tao as it were...

 

But generally- practice of a system would seem to be at least offering one's energy to that system and in some way making one a part of that system. If we are each basically bundles of various energies and consciousness, it is hard for me to grasp the difference of intent, and action following that intent- from the being of what is manifested, be that Taoist or Christian or any combination of any philosophy.

 

There are few here, for instance, that do not accept many different aspects of world-wide philosophy as acceptible to reason and therefore few of us seem to be pure in our Taoism or any other manifested belief sytem...

 

It is my understanding that a combination of belief systems and philosophies is not uncommon in the world today. I don't mean to muddy the waters, but encluding many origins of ideas does not seem to refute Taoism for me, but to add to its construct; even if it is not derived from ancient and pure sources of Taoist liturature.

[Yen Hui]

Hi there Taomeow ~

 

Throw in the fifth: he lived in Communist China since 1947 and got along with maoism and maoists. You just

do what you gotta do as your public persona. His private persona, however, was that of a taoist, secret leader

of a secretive taoist sect that managed to survive the times when so many didn't. I believe the guiding

principle here was the I Ching's line I sometimes think of as the single most important one:

"Conceal your light."

 

Taomeow, I must confess that what you're saying is starting to make a lot of sense with me, though I'm not

yet inclined to go as far with it as you might. It is certainly more than plausible, when viewed from a certain

perspective. I am rethinking the possibilities.

 

You present a compelling case with merit! There is no doubt that "concealing the light" describes our own

times. His 'Maoism' has 'concealment' written all over it. However, it might be pushing things a little too far to

say his interests in the other paths were indulged merely as an act of 'concealment'. You have succeeded at

getting me to look at it again from another angle. Kudos!

 

I have a question to you too, Yen Hui.

 

The Chinese character for "buddha" is comprized of two radicals, one meaning "human," and the other one

meaning "not." What's your interpretation of this interesting original way to translate the idea of buddha into

Chinese (to which it is not native)?

 

In "taoist taoism," we have "wizards," not "buddhas." The Chinese character for "wizard" is comprized of two

radicals, one meaning "human" and the other one meaning "mountain." What do you make of it?

 

First, the two Chinese characters for "buddha" strike me as implying that a real 'buddha' is both human and

not-human. S/he exists in a state of perfect poise between being and non-being; both supremely human and

supremely above the mundane, as far as heaven is above the earth. The buddha thus symbolizes the state of

true balance and harmony between the sublime and the mundane, or between the celestial mind essence and

the material body itself.

 

The two characters for "wizard" strike me as implying something similar, in regard to achievement. The Taoist

Wizard is a mountain in comparison to ordinary people. The image of the mountain conveys much, not least of

which is the notion of duration or longevity. Thus the "wizard" is one who has penetrated the Mysterious Pass

and become "immortalized". Her abode is atop the mountain, where Immortals ride upon the wind, concealed

in the breath of the dragon. In regard to her rootedness and the stillness of her mind, she is like Mt. Everest!

 

In the spirit of the Tao,

Yen Hui

[fatherpaul]

as i have said to yen,

 

pietro and ian,

do not insult me until you understand me.

then insult me all you wish.

 

peace and happy pancakes,

paul

[Ian]

as i have said to yen,

 

pietro and ian,

do not insult me until you understand me.

then insult me all you wish.

 

peace and happy pancakes,

paul

 

But I might never penetrate your gnomic depths and I want to insult you now!

It simply isn't fair.

You could keep on and on claiming we haven't understood you and then the chance would never come.

What if we understood you ages ago and you're just faking?

Can't we do some insulting on credit, just in case you're actually just as shallow as the rest of us?

[Yen Hui]

 

THE TAOIST ATTITUTDE TOWARD SEX

 

"Anyone engaging in spiritual learning must not have a loose attitude toward sex. If one has a suitable sexual

expression, it is important to know the right way to do it, and what is beneficial and correct for oneself and

one's partner. This is the correct sexual attitude at the stage of an achieved spiritual person." (Taoist Master

Hua Ching Ni, in Entering the Tao, p. 101)

 

FURTHER SELECTIONS FROM ENTERING THE TAO :-

 

01 - "Do not be receptive to people or things with low or bad energy; receptivity to such energy might damage

your spiritual health." (from the Chapter on BASIC SPIRITUAL PROTECTION, p. 124)

 

02 - "Do not undertake activities with people whose energy is low or bad, especially eating, sitting, living,

travelling, or partnering activities." (ibid, p. 125)

 

03 - "Do not allow personal items such as clothes or books to be used by other people, in order to avoid an

energy mix-up. Also, for this reason, your bed or personal room should not be disturbed by others." (ibid,

p. 125)

 

04 - "Do not engage in physical contact, such as shaking hands, hugging, or friendly kissing, with persons

of poor or confused energy. Such people are also to be avoided when it comes to healing in any form, such as

massages. Haircuts, manicures, and other similar things should be avoided. The more you do for yourself, the

better." (ibid, p. 126)

 

05 - "Do not engage in low-quality mental activities. Indecent, illusory, or imaginary exaggeration in writing,

talking, thinking, or reading can cause your mind to become irresponsible to the correctness of your own

being. The mind may become wild and lose control, finally causing you to lose the vision of the true way. To a

spiritually developed person, thinking functions as the accumulation of Ch'i. Thus, when you are thinking, avoid

thinking of bad things or of people with bad energy. With your thinking you may cause something to happen or

you may accumulate improper Ch'i." (ibid, p. 129)

 

06 - "Do not exhaust yourself through insatiable physical or mental desires. Do not overuse one particular

organ or part of your body. Overusing the body will cause your mind to become dull, and overusing the mind

will weaken the body. Both forms of excess create obstacles to your spiritual growth and damage the

wholeness and balance of your being." (ibid, p. 129)

 

07 - "Do not work just for the feeling of happiness; it will cost you too much. It is better to remain right and

true on all occasions and at every moment. The feeling of happiness belongs to the emotional level. Thus,

be careful not to become a slave to your emotions; rather, be the lord of your spirit." (ibid, p. 128)

 

08 - "Practice moderation in life, such as in food and in sex." (from the Chapter on FRIENDLY ADVICE, p. 147;

N.B. This quote is literally the closing line or last words of the book.)

 

THREE MORE QUOTES FROM CLEARY'S INTRO TO UNDERSTANDING REALITY :-

 

09 - "A practical procedure for repelling yin and fostering yang often presented in Taoist texts basically consists

of standing aloof from the dominant mundane aspect of the mind - that is, acquired habits of thought

and feeling - in order to increase awareness of the recessive celestial mind, which is considered the original,

primordial mind." (Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 12)

 

10 - "The five bases and five things are further said to contain, respectively, five virtues and five thieves. The

five virtues represent qualities which are held to simultaneously promote social health and personal develop-

ment. The five thieves are emotions and cravings, called thieves or bandits because their indulgence

robs the individual of energy, reason, and inner autonomy. This drainage is held to be the cause of phy-

ical and mental decline. Thus the aim of Complete Reality Taoism is to govern the five things by the five bases,

and subordinate the five thieves to the five virtues." (Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 12)

 

11 - "Guard against [the] abuse of such practices by ignorant imitators, because sexual yoga is held to be

potentially hazardous, as a modern Taoist explains: 'The interaction of yin and yang (here meaning female

and male) is inconceivable; if the practice of the southern school is not done properly, it can easily cause

illness.' " (Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 30)

 

To All You Wayfaring Seekers and Friends ~

 

It is my desire and intent to comment on many of the notes and remarks made in this thread, time permitting,

but it may take a few days. I'm going to be fairly busy for the next few days, and may not really find the time

until this Sunday. I am particularly interested in probing further into the Taoist psychology of the passions, as

pertaining to (in the words of master Hua Ching Ni) "a suitable sexual expression." I believe this was a subject

already broached by Max, but I feel it deserves or warrants further exploration.

 

Max also referred to Master Hua Ching Ni (if I'm not mistaken) as one of the principal sources for his Taoist

vision and praxis. With that in mind, I thought posting the above excerpts from book, as they strike me as

being highly relevant to the subject of developing "a suitable sexual expression" for the practicing Taoist.

The Three Quotes from Cleary also strike me as equally or no less relevant, in that regard.

 

Feel free to offer your thoughts on any or all of them, specifically regarding their direct or indirect bearing

(as the case may be) upon the healthy "sexual expression" of Taoists, according to sound principle(s).

 

In the spirit of the Tao,

Yen Hui

Edited March 30, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Yen Hui]

There is no distinction between Tao and anything else. "The principle that can be enunciated is not the one that

always was. The being that can be named is not the one that was at all times."

 

Yet there is a Tao that is distinct from something else. In a way. It just cannot be grasped by the mind. Still,

we can discuss it and point to it as long as we remain in truth and are not lost by our own words.

 

We seem to agree that there is an external truth. But then we tend to disagree with what exactly this truth is.

Not only we disagree, but often our teacher seem to disagree, at least upfront. And then, when you dig deeper

you might find that the reality is so much more complex that there is space for both statements, just in

different moment, in different contexts, etc.

 

One time I went to Bruce and said, Bruce, from when I started practicing those meditations, all the tao te ching

started to make much more sense. I felt I understood what the author meant. He looked me with an amused

look, and said: How do you know that what you are understanding is really what the author meant. The fact

that something makes sense does not mean that that is the sense that was originally meant.

 

Doing and being seem entwined to me. Still I can see a potential person trying to practice a "Taoist" system of

meditation and/or sexual techniques etc... that are not natural to them and therefore they are not in their

own Tao as it were...

 

But generally- practice of a system would seem to be at least offering one's energy to that system and in

some way making one a part of that system. If we are each basically bundles of various energies and

consciousness, it is hard for me to grasp the difference of intent, and action following that intent- from the

being of what is manifested, be that Taoist or Christian or any combination of any philosophy.

 

There are few here, for instance, that do not accept many different aspects of world-wide philosophy as

acceptible to reason and therefore few of us seem to be pure in our Taoism or any other manifested belief

sytem...

 

It is my understanding that a combination of belief systems and philosophies is not uncommon in the world

today. I don't mean to muddy the waters, but encluding many origins of ideas does not seem to refute Taoism

for me, but to add to its construct; even if it is not derived from ancient and pure sources of Taoist liturature.

 

Hi there Pat ~ Thanks for the input. The synthesis of different "belief systems and philosophies" is not peculiar

to our own times. According to the German philosopher Hegel, the flow of Western history and ideas can be

summarized in terms of "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis". And to a large extent, the same appears true of

Chinese history and ideas as well, at least on the surface of things.

 

It certainly appears to explain the formation of Complete Reality Taoism. It is difficult for me, at best, to view

Complete Reality Taoism as nothing more than an attempt at "Darkening the Light" (cf. Hexagram 36) or the

"concealment" of 'pure' Taoism from public view; though I admit the possibility of that dynamic factoring into

the overall equation at some level.

 

However, regarding the ideas expressed in the above quotations, from yourself, Pietro and Sean, I offer these

further selections from Master Hua-Ching Ni's book, Entering the Tao. According to the esteemed Master, truth

is expressed in all the ancient schools, though only in part. See no. 7 specifically, which seems to offer an

explanation for the emergence and continued existence of Complete Reality Taoism (i.e. Neo-Taoism).

 

In the spirit of the Tao,

Yen Hui

 

TEN MORE QUOTES FROM ENTERING THE TAO:-

 

01 - "Arguments about Tao usually occur only about words, not about the underlying reality behind them." (p. 7)

 

02 - "Tao does not emphasize any point of view. It is neutral, like zero. It does not hold any particular

standpoint which would create a prejudicial tendency. It rejects any possible extremes." (p. 3)

 

03 - "At the beginning, Tao just meant 'the Way'. Tao is the ancient spiritual education. It was especially

emphasized about twenty-five hundred years ago, when the wise people of society reacted to the confusion of

the time ... etc. There were several different teachers, and as they taught, students came and the schools

were formed." (p. 4)

 

04 - "Mo Tzu, Confucius, Lao Tzu, and Chuang Tzu all presented the Integral Spirit with a different emphasis.

All of them took the duty of awakening and harmonizing the people, but the approach was different. Thereby,

the pure Taoism, different from the religious type of Taoism, took the duty of awakening people of spiritual

differences to the subtle truth, Tao." (p. 5-6)

 

05 - "Mencius (the great Confucian sage.) never mentioned the Taoist school in his writings, because he himself

absorbed some teaching and practice from the ancient teaching of Tao. So you can see that the other achieved

Taoists at that time still managed themselves with coolness and calmness: they stayed at the side and did not

become involved with the changing waves of popular Chinese society. " (p. 5)

 

06 - "Tao cannot be defined by the differences between what is in front and what is in back. Nor is this the

Taoist mind. A healthy Taoist attitude always comes back to a neutral point. For example, once we notice that

we have thoughts or emotions toward a certain thing or person, once we have built any kind of attitude toward

something, we always need to put it aside and come back to the zero point. We must always be waiting for

change." (p. 8)

 

07 - "Because things in the world change, there is no reason to hold tightly on to any teaching or establishment

that began two or three thousand years ago. Only the helpful principles that were taught should be followed,

because principles do not change. All good principles can merge together as one good unified principle that

exists prior to any of the momentary teachings that were developed. It is Tao." (p. 9)

 

08 - "Many people ask me, what is Tao? Is it not clear enough? Tao is integral truth. It is not a projection of a

prejudice; it is not a partial truth that needs insistence; it is not a viewpoint or a philosophy. It is the universal

integral truth, the truth of all lives, the truth that exists prior to any thought or statement." (p. 11)

 

09 - "All the arguments between the three schools, or between any points of view, or set of words, are not

necessary. They are only different viewpoints of the same undiscussible thing. In a sense, they are all true,

but none of them are exactly true, because Tao can never really be defined." (p. 6-7)

 

10 - "I write my books to give viewpoints of many of the ancient developed ones. Why? I do it because I hope

that after reading and understanding many different viewpoints of Tao from the achieved ones, you will come

to understand what the words cannot define. Your understanding of tao will not actually be a set of words. It

will be deeper than words." (p. 6)

Edited March 30, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Yen Hui]

However, it might be pushing things a little too far to say his interests in the other paths were indulged merely

as an act of 'concealment'.

 

There are at least two reasons for my saying this, Taomeow: first, that it seems "concealment" could have

been successfully achieved by taking on the practice of merely 1 or 2 extra paths, instead of 4 in all. I mean,

just the 'Maoism' and 'Confucianism' would have sufficed, don't you think? Why the need for Buddhism and

neo-Taoism as well? Unless, of course, 4 extra paths offers twice as much concealment as just 2 extra

paths.

 

The second reason is that if mere "concealment" was his goal, why labour to become adept at all 5 paths? I'm

not sure if he was actually adept at all 5, but that's the impression I get from Pietro. At any rate, would'nt it

have sufficed for him to just hang with them all, and learn their lingo? Why bother to master all 4 or 5 paths?

 

First, the two Chinese characters for "buddha" strike me as implying that a real 'buddha' is both human and

not-human. S/he exists in a state of perfect poise between being and non-being; both supremely human and

supremely above the mundane, as far as heaven is above the earth.

 

After posting the above reply, the following passage from the Tao Te Ching came to me, which

strikes me as providing further insight into the mystery:-

 

"Heaven and earth are not humane; they regard all beings as straw dogs.

Sages are not humane; they see all people as straw dogs."

(cf. Section 05 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap05 )

 

Now, Cleary offers the following commentary on those two lines:-

 

Cheng Dachang says,

 

" This means everything has its time, then passes away, so there is continuous renewal. If you are a

conscientious humanitarian, what are you going to do? Working for one impedes another; help one and you

neglect a hundred. This kind of humanitarianism is both toilsome and trivial. Chuang Tzu said, 'The supreme

kindness has no familiarity; it should make you forget the world, and make the world forget you.' "

 

Cao Daozhong says,

 

" Heaven, earth, and the sage are supremely humane, but they do not consider themselves humane, so it

is said that they are not humane." (Taoist Classics, V. 1, p. 111)

 

The two characters for "wizard" strike me as implying something similar, in regard to achievement. The Taoist

Wizard is a mountain in comparison to ordinary people. The image of the mountain conveys much, not least of

which is the notion of duration or longevity. Thus the "wizard" is one who has penetrated the Mysterious Pass

and become "immortalized". Her abode is atop the mountain, where Immortals ride upon the wind, concealed

in the breath of the dragon. In regard to her rootedness and the stillness of her mind, she is like Mt. Everest!

 

In regard to Taoist Wizardry, I came across the following passage in Master Ni's book on Entering the

Tao, and wondered what you might make of it? Is there a difference between a Taoist Wizard, you think,

and the kind of sorcerer described below?

 

"Do not take interest in the craft of a sorcerer. All ancient traditions are involved with some sorcerers, and

though their power is invisible, it is absolutely not high divine power. The great ancient teachers have kindly

pointed out that such an ability is not the important practice on the path of eternal life, nor is it the way to

obtain eternal life. On the contrary, such powers usually create more spiritual obstacles for those who indulge

in spiritual power practices. In most cases, the price is too high. This kind of practice is actually a type of

darkness developed before people attained high enlightenment as revealed in the Tao Te Ching." (Master Ni's

Entering the Tao, p. 127)

[Taomeow]

Hi Yen Hui,

 

thanks for your thoughts!

 

Of course I didn't mean that "everybody" who embraces "everything" does so in order to "conceal something." On second thought... yes, this must be it. OK, not everybody who does it does it on purpose or even consciously. Unconsciously this "embrace every path" must be chosen by anyone for whom "something to conceal" is his or her own feelings. People who have given up on their natural needs and were forced to learn to numb out so as not to feel how devastating it is may proceed to learn (sic) how to feel and how not to feel from books and masters and ideologies, because the inner teacher who knows has been silenced. In this case they can, of course, embrace everything and anything -- long as it serves the purpose of distracting them from the real problem: not knowing what they really feel! Good old disconnection from self by yet another set of means.

 

In a disconnected state, one doesn't mind embracing contradicting and even mutually exclusive views. In a connected (feeling) state, one can't possibly agree that cultivating the body is good AND binding womens' legs to permanently cripple them (for over a thousand years!) is also good. One cannot agree that "attachments are bad" and build a humongous Buddha statue to pray to on the top of the mountain. One cannot believe that "there is no sufferer" and go see a doctor when he or she personally does suffer. And so on... So, yes, some people embrace all paths except for one: the path of reconnecting one's own person to one's own developmental history and re-learning what every infant and every animal knows how to do: own one's own feelings, KNOW what one really feels... The ones who have chosen THIS venue will of necessity have to ignore everything that isn't conductive to the task, everything that teaches them "how to feel" and "how not to feel" instead of teaching them how to feel exactly what they feel...

 

In regard to Taoist Wizardry, I came across the following passage in Master Ni's book on Entering the

Tao, and wondered what you might make of it? Is there a difference between a Taoist Wizard, you think,

and the kind of sorcerer described below?

 

"Do not take interest in the craft of a sorcerer. All ancient traditions are involved with some sorcerers, and

though their power is invisible, it is absolutely not high divine power. The great ancient teachers have kindly

pointed out that such an ability is not the important practice on the path of eternal life, nor is it the way to

obtain eternal life. On the contrary, such powers usually create more spiritual obstacles for those who indulge

in spiritual power practices. In most cases, the price is too high. This kind of practice is actually a type of

darkness developed before people attained high enlightenment as revealed in the Tao Te Ching." (Master Ni's

Entering the Tao, p. 127)

 

 

For one thing, master Ni is a dud. For another, what he says is in direct contradiction to all of taoist tradition, the tradition of wizard-making. Alchemical arts (internal and external) that lie at the root of taoist cultivation produce taoist wizards by default, all taoist immortals and celestial masters started out as tao wizards. This is not the "final outcome" of cultivation, just a stage, not an early one, not the highest one. Master Ni is a useless blabbermouth if you ask me who didn't even bother to study taoist history, or even taoist folklore, looks like. Let alone taoist cultivation. His "tao of the mouth" is without merit.

 

As for what "buddha" who is "human not" means... interesting interpretations! I've been studying Mandarin for a short enough time to be unable to claim any proficiency yet (and I mostly emphasize learning to speak and understand spoken Chinese, reading and writing have been lagging a bit behind), but what fascinates me when I "dismantle" the meaning of components of a word is the straightforward literal meaning, the first thing that occurs to one before intellectualizing and re-interpreting. All Chinese words are fuzzy, meanings are layered and can be translated and interpreted this way and that way... but the very first one jumps out at you from the picture, and that's the one I usually go with, at least for now. So to me it simply means that "buddha is someone or something who is not a human being." Which makes a buddha out of a blade of grass, out of a dog, out of a non-human entity... but not of a man or a woman. This also explains the meaning of one of my favorite Chinese proverbs: "One walks knee-deep in buddhas!"

 

"Wizard" and "mountain human," to me, mean simply that taoist wizards were traditionally "made" in the mountains. Taoist monasteries were built in the mountains too. And that's where a classic taoist wanderer is always encountering taoist sages, with a few exceptions (exceptions, however, only visit towns and villages, while their permanent residence is still in the mountains). Must have something to do with the qi of the mountains that is rather special...

Edited March 31, 2007 by Taomeow

[freeform]

I really liked the first part of your post, Taomeaow!

 

As to the second part, I'm not sure whether master Ni is a dudd or not... I certainly found the the list of "Do not"'s that Yen presented a few posts back rather un-Taoist... but what was said about Tao being beyond words is certainly accurate imo... It's possible that Ni's nature requires these "do not" rules... but for me, mixing with people of only 'good' energy would be very detrimental... my nature is to include all both good and bad, for me it can't be any other way...

 

Also 'mountain human' has certain connotations for me... the major one being the incredible groundedness of a mountain, and at the same time it's ability to reach up to the heavens... certainly a wizzard to me feels like someone connected very much with his lower dan tien and earth... earth magic etc

[Yen Hui]

 

For one thing, master Ni is a dud. For another ... Master Ni is a useless blabbermouth if you ask me who didn't

even bother to study taoist history, or even taoist folklore, looks like. Let alone taoist cultivation. His "tao of

the mouth" is without merit.

 

You sure you ain't the "TaoTiger"? The "meow" seems to have transfigured into a "roar"! LOL

Now, if you feel up to it tonight, we'd love to hear how you really feel about him! Just kiddin'!

[mat black]

regarding taoist attitudes towards sex - not withstending the potential for varying attitudes and scope on the matter (after all, the term taoist is very generic anyway)

 

the following is from the 'hua hu ching' which is said to be a collection of Lao Tzu's later works.

 

is it an 'authentic' source/reference? i dunno - i wasn't around then , or if i was, i can't remember. in any case i feel that these are wise words.

 

 

Hua Hu Ching chapter 69

 

 

A person's approach to sexuality is a sign of his level of

evolution.

 

Unevolved persons practice ordinary sexual

intercourse.

 

Placing all emphasis upon the sexual organs, they

neglect the body's other organs and systems.

 

Whatever physical energy is accumulated is summarily

discharged, and the subtle energies are similarly

dissipated and distorted.

It is a great backward leap.

 

For those who aspire to the higher realms of living,

there is angelic dual cultivation.

Because every portion of the body, mind and spirit

yearns for the integration of yin and yang, angelic

intercourse is led by the spirit rather than the sexual

organs.

 

Where ordinary intercourse is effortfull,

angelic cultivation is calm, relaxed, quiet and natural.

Where ordinary intercourse unites sex organs with sex organs,

angelic cultivation unites spirit with spirit

mind with mind and every cell of the body with

every cell of the other body

Culminating not in dissolution but in integration, it is

an opportunity for a man and woman to mutually

transform and uplift each other into the realm of

bliss and wholeness.

 

The sacred ways of angelic intercourse are taught only

by one who has himself achieved total energy integreation,

and taught only to student who follow

the integral way with profound devotion, seeking

to purify and pacify the entire world along with

their own being

 

However, if your virtue is especially radiant, it can be

possible to open a pathway to the subtle realm and

receive these celestial teachings directly from the

immortals

[Taomeow]

Also 'mountain human' has certain connotations for me... the major one being the incredible groundedness of a mountain, and at the same time it's ability to reach up to the heavens... certainly a wizzard to me feels like someone connected very much with his lower dan tien and earth... earth magic etc

 

Yes, that's also true. The trigram for "mountain" is Ken, "keeping still," it looks like this:

__

- -

- -

 

One yang line on top of two yin lines, i.e. a stabilized, yin foundation underneath the active yang manifestations on the surface. So a taoist wizard is someone very active externally, very stable internally. My kind of guy/gal.

[Taomeow]

You sure you ain't the "TaoTiger"? The "meow" seems to have transfigured into a "roar"! LOL

Now, if you feel up to it tonight, we'd love to hear how you really feel about him! Just kiddin'!

 

Sorry if I was too hard on Master Ni. I don't feel that strongly about him personally, but I usually have a bone or two to pick with anyone who puts down taoist magic under whatever pretex... which (taoist magic) I, personally, admire as the greatest science (sic) of them all. To substitute arbitrary moralizing for study and practice (master Ni style) is easy... anyone can do that, anywhere -- and the outcome is, generally, not good. I recall in Europe they roasted Jordano Bruno on an inquisition's fire for wizardry and heresy when he announced the Earth rotates around the Sun, not vice versa. (Something a taoist astronomer figured out some 1,300 years earlier if memory serves... but they still don't teach this in schools, and probably never will.) So master Ni may be relatively harmless long as he's not in the position of power... but once someone like that is, they tend to enforce moral, religious and scientific orthodoxy with deadly repressions of all dissenting views. Taoist magic and its practitioners, aka taoist science and its researchers, vere victims of this scenraio more than once...

Edited April 1, 2007 by Taomeow

[Wayfarer64]

Thanks Mat !!

 

...for that great entry... I think that may be the best explanation of "The Way" of sexual union I've read as yet...

 

It is very refreshing after the semi-smarm of the "serious offer" thread, which may have led us to this thread. For me at this time, sexual liberation is another evolution in progress. Exploration is usually both mind-expanding and dangerous, which is the case with our sexuality as well as in the wider world of various explorations. But keeping a clear mind and open heart- usually will help to get us through to higher ground.

[Yen Hui]

I am particularly interested in probing further into the Taoist psychology of the passions, as pertaining to

(in the words of master Hua Ching Ni) "a suitable sexual expression." I believe this was a subject already

broached by Max, but I feel it deserves or warrants further exploration.

 

Max also referred to Master Hua Ching Ni (if I'm not mistaken) ... etc.

 

Well, after a quick review of this thread, it has just occurred to me that I was, in fact, mistaken about Max's

references. He referenced "Nan Huan-Chin", and not "Hua-Ching Ni", as I had originally thought. What can I

say, but that I'm a human who still errs; as I think is also true of Master Ni.

 

While some of Master Ni's teachings leave me scratching my head, and wondering where he's coming from, I

am actually far from thinking he's "a dud". I have read too much of his writings to think that. He is, indeed, a

person of great achievement. But that does'nt mean he's infallible, or evolved beyond making errors; he'd be

the first one to admit that, I feel.

 

THREE MORE QUOTES from Entering the Tao :-

 

01 - Tao is the potency of the Universe. It includes all Gods, all deities, all divine beings, all spirits, and all

souls. This means that all things have Tao as their deep root. Anyone who embraces Tao also embraces the

potency of the Universe. To embrace Tao is to become Tao, and nothing can be beyond you, nothing can

occupy you. (p. 1)

 

02 - Integral truth is not a uniting of all religions; it is doing away with all religions. Use your mind to directly

reach the universal mind. Use your spirit to directly reach the universal spirit. Surely in human life, religion is a

matter of different customs in different societies. Achieved ones never disagree with customs and also never

agree with any custom. They live, they are happy, and they may enjoy the customs, but their spiritual

development is never limited or confined by them. (p. 12)

 

03 - It is important, therefore, to know and see the entire universe as one being. The organs of a spiritually

achieved person develop their own spiritual energy and spiritual entities, but they all make up one

complete spiritual being. It is the same in the universe. You and I are supported by the same universal

spiritual energy; the whole thing is God. There is no separate "God" in the realm of integral truth. (p. 22)

 

It is possible to ascertain from the above quotes, I feel, that Master Ni is neither a "philosophical" Taoist, nor

a "religious" Taoist. ( I hope Michael [the Lerner] reads these THREE QUOTES, as I feel they speak to some

of his concerns/questions.) It is clear (to me at least) from the body of Master Ni's writings that he's a Taoist

Alchemist; and yet it is equally clear to me that he believes in the subtle power of Taoist magic to guide and

produce changes in the phenomenal realm.

 

It's important, I feel, for us to try and interpret him within the larger scope or context of all his writings, and

not merely on the basis of a few isolated quotes. While quotes are helpful, they're also highly limited in regard

to their ability to provide a comprehensive view of an author, which can only be obtained from extensive study

of their writing(s). It is clearly impossible to form an accurate assessment of Master Ni's overall Taoist vision

and experience, from just a few random quotes.

 

For one thing, master Ni is a dud. For another, what he says is in direct contradiction to all of taoist tradition,

the tradition of wizard-making. Alchemical arts (internal and external) that lie at the root of taoist cultivation

produce taoist wizards by default, all taoist immortals and celestial masters started out as tao wizards. This is

not the "final outcome" of cultivation, just a stage, not an early one, not the highest one. Master Ni is a

useless blabbermouth if you ask me who didn't even bother to study taoist history, or even taoist folklore,

looks like. Let alone taoist cultivation. His "tao of the mouth" is without merit.

 

Taomeow ~

 

Just curious, if you've studied any of Master Ni's writings in depth? If yes, which ones, if you don't mind my

asking?

 

With regard to his comment on "the craft", it's clear, from that one passage I quoted, that he believes "wizard-

making" is a "Taoist" tradtion, predating the Tao Te Ching. Would you disagree with that? It is also clear, from

the greater body of his writings, that he has a profound experience and grasp of both Taoist alchemy and magic.

However, it is also clear to me that much of what he says is quite advanced, and way over my head!

 

With regard to the old Confucian practice of "foot-binding", it is unclear to me whether (or not) all Confucians

were in favor of it. It seems to me that perhaps not all were. It is highly doubtful that Master Ni ever was; in

fact, I feel certain he would completely disapprove of it. Just because he believes Confucianism has absorbed

some of the ancient or original spirit of Tao, and can be harmonized at specific critical points with the "original"

spirit and practice of Taoism, does'nt mean he necessarily approves of all the ancient Confucian teachings and

practices.

 

Hey there Pat [the Wayfarer] ~

 

Searching for something else, I found this link and thought of this thread-...

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KW..._6/ai_n15394266

 

It seems to be a basic definition and may be of value to clarify terms and attitudes as Sean has suggested ...

 

Thanks for the above link which provides us with a concise view of Taoist sexual cultivation practices. What I

found particularly helpful about it was it's pointing out that there are " 'single cultivation' practices, done

alone," or without a partner. While I was personally aware of this, it is something not everyone is clear about,

especially those who are relatively new to Taoism, or just beginning to take a serious look into the tradition,

from the outside.

 

In any case, my first reaction to making love - way back in the late 60's was

 

"Sex is good!" What I was reacting to was the emotional warmth and joy of shared being, more than the

physical release of tension and newness of the joining experience. Even in the beginning I realized the

potential of oneness. But I had been studying the Yi Jing for a couple of years before I became sexually active.

 

Wow! I'm impressed (mildly speaking) to read about you're being into the I Ching since the 60's; and even

more so, of you're getting into it even before becoming sexually active. That's awesome! I only discovered it

in 1990. Sad, but true! However, since then my life has never been the same.

 

With regard to your experience of sex in terms of "emotional warmth", I'd like to hear more from you, if you

don't mind, regarding the Taoist psychology of the "emotions", in general; and specifically with regard to a

healthy Taoist sexual expression. Regarding this matter, Master Ni has the following to say about it:-

 

04 - "Passion means emotion. Passion is what makes love narrow. Passionate love can be a good experience

during one's youth, but passion needs to be well guided and controlled. Although the emotional experience of

narrow love can be beautiful, it can also be harmful. Broad, humanistic or natural love, however, can be

enjoyed throughout this life and all lives. Whether love is humanistic or passionate, it should always be guided

by the principle fo balance. If one loses balance in the name of love, then that way of loving is unhealthy."

(Entering the Tao, p. 89-90)

 

05 - "Passion is only a part of the whole human mental being, however. There is still the higher sphere of the

mind which needs to be cultivated and developed so that one can have good control over the passion of the

lower sphere of the mind. A raft riding the torrents cannot carry many people. Danger may be lurking

anywhere along the path. Though one may enjoy the excitement of riding a raft in the torrents, this is not a

normal, everyday practice. If one's passion is like a torrent, then one's life is like a raft. How dangerous that

is! How long can the enjoyment of such excitement last? Is it worth exhausting one's life? This seems to be a

poor model of normal, healthy passion." (ibid, p. 90-91)

 

06 - "Love is a beautiful passion; however, when emotional force or possessiveness is attached to what one

loves, the sublime state of pure love is degraded or damaged. Surely, a spiritually developed person can still

feel personal love, but it is unattached, an unoccupying love. This is the fine quality of true spiritual love. The

nature of spiritual love is subtle. One can unceasingly appreciate beauty without creating the troubles which

accompany its ownership. Therefore, a full life of appreciation can be lived without carrying the weight of

worldly burdens." (ibid, p. 91)

 

Techniques were added later... It is the interactive flow of being and shared experience that remains the focus

of physical love for me.

 

When approached in a "wholistic" manner, as you imply, that is, with spirit, soul, and body, then it's more than

just "physical love". Don't you think? However, while I'm far from adept at such matters, it does not strike me

as if practicing sexual yoga with complete strangers is capable of realizing this high goal. It goes without saying,

though, that I remain open to correction on this.

 

Thanks Mat !!

 

...for that great entry... I think that may be the best explanation of "The Way" of sexual union I've read as yet...

It is very refreshing after the semi-smarm of the "serious offer" thread, which may have led us to this thread.

 

Yes, Matt. Thanks for the input. It's appreciated!

 

For the record, though, I've not revisited the "Serious Offer" thread, since my second post there, so I have no

idea which direction it's gone in; nor do I really care, to be honest. I stand by what I said there, regarding the

absence of the spirit of the Tao in that thread. While Michelle's offer may be serious, her interest in Taoist

spirituality is not; at least not that I could readily discern.

 

... keeping a clear mind and open heart- usually will help to get us through to higher ground.

 

Usually, Pat? I'm more inclined to say always.

 

Doing and being seem entwined to me.

 

They are definitely entwined if one's whole being is involved in the doing; that is to say, if one is "sincere" in

the act. There is a kind of 'hypocritical' doing and 'sincere' doing. The hypocrite's heart is not "really" in the

doing; thus his/her practice is hollow, or shallow at best. A "hypocritical" or hollow practice would not qualify,

in my books, as authentic or genuine Taoism, despite the "outward" appearance.

 

Still I can see a potential person trying to practice a "Taoist" system of meditation and/or sexual techniques

etc... that are not natural to them and therefore they are not in their own Tao as it were...

 

If they are "sincere" in their practice, that is to say, if their heart and soul are united in the act, then the act is

a true reflection of their heart/mind. At least that's how I presently see it. I feel we must carefully distinguish

between the celestial mind of Tao, which is present in everyone, though buried under mountains of false ideas

and conditioning; and the mundane human mentality. It may feel "unnatural" to them only because of their

prior false conditioning; but if the practice is genuine and persevered in, then it will recondition the conscious

mind, and thus harmonize it with the person's original spirit, which is the innate mind of Tao.

 

But generally- practice of a system would seem to be at least offering one's energy to that system and in

some way making one a part of that system. If we are each basically bundles of various energies and

consciousness, it is hard for me to grasp the difference of intent, and action following that intent- from the

being of what is manifested, be that Taoist or Christian or any combination of any philosophy.

 

Interestingly enough, Mantak Chia considers himself both a Christian and a Taoist Wizard. Check out this link,

for example:-

 

Mantak Chia - A Modern Taoist Wizard @

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Artic...ews/larth42.htm

 

Well, I feel that intention is everything. There are those, no doubt, who dabble with Taoist practices, but would

not really consider themselves Taoists at all. And I would agree with them on that. I'd also say there are those

who think they are Taoists, just because they read the classics and might practice a form of Taoist meditation,

but that does not necesarily make them Taoists; and so I would agree with Pietro on that. But do you think I'm

about to tell Master Chia he's deluded, or not a Taoist just because he also claims to be a Christian? Not likely.

And I'm sure his claim to being a Christian is not an attempt to conceal his Taoism.

 

According to the few passages I've quoted from Master Ni, regarding the nature of the Tao, and adherence to

"zero" doctrine in genuine spiritual practice, Master Chia's Christian practice could not possibly negate the

authenticity or genuine character of his Taoism. As usual, though, I remain open to correction on this.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Yen Hui]

Well, I feel that intention is everything.

 

Tao Te Ching:-

 

Always passionless, thereby observe the subtle;

ever intent, thereby observe the apparent.

These two come from the same source but differ in name;

both are considered mysteries.

 

(cf. Section 01 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap01 )

 

 

As to the second part, I'm not sure whether master Ni is a dudd or not... I certainly found the the list of "Do

not"'s that Yen presented a few posts back rather un-Taoist... but what was said about Tao being beyond

words is certainly accurate imo... It's possible that Ni's nature requires these "do not" rules... but for me,

mixing with people of only 'good' energy would be very detrimental... my nature is to include all both

good and bad, for me it can't be any other way...

 

Hey there freeform ~

 

You're not holding back on us, are ya? I'm certain it would benefit a few of us if you would elaborate a bit

on those "detrimental" effects that you allude to. I mean, what are the benefits, iyo, of being tight with people

of 'bad' energy?

[Wayfarer64]

Hi all,

 

Yen Hui - I don't know where to begin to address all that you have addressed to me in such a giving way...

 

It is a coincidence that the first girl I was even in love with and became a roiling bundle of crazy passion over- gave me my first copy, (Wilhelm/Baynes) of the I Ching... back in 1968 when I was 14. I was also taking LSD and meditating for hours, adjusting to puberty and just growing-up much too fast.

 

The I Ching gave me the only feed-back of any value at that time. The girl remained in my life for years after, but our sexual chemistry -though delved into, never developed into a deep bonding. My first experience in 1970, of making love (not just sex) was not (alas) with her.

 

It was not until I was 17 that I met a girl with whom all elements were brought together and we had a very passionate and also a very transcendant love affair. When we connected it was as if our whole beings were mingled as one and we could travel together in a way that was similar to astral projection, but united. It seemed as if we visited other planets and star systems while just holding each-other, out in the fields of Hertsfordshire England- where we were.

 

I was not ready for all of the the changes we were putting eachother through, nor was she. And what's more, her father was very opposed to her being with me. He is in fact an historical figure in the forming of the European Union and a very formidable man indeed. His disapproval was enough to place a wedge between us. I chickened-out of an eloped-marriage and we drifted apart. Though we did try to stay in touch across the Atlantic for years...I have always felt that we remained a part of each-others' true inner being. She has died some 5 years ago. Another woman whom I shared a similar sort of love with also died, while we were still seeing each-other many years ago now. The connections remain. I am now seeking to rid myself of emotional extremes such as passion or hatefulness bring-on. I seek the middle way in all I do. And of course often don't quite find the ability to keep to it without emotional swings due to life's many foibles and hurts...

 

 

My early years in the freewheeling 60's-70's gave me all too many sexual experiences. I have had to sort through the many levels of contact to realize what is truly important for me now, and maybe should have been more important to me then.

 

So love has often been somewhat tragic for me thus far. I make the choice to remember the bliss and reject the pain from my minds' occupation. Life indeed does go on. A sample of my poetry may give a better take on how I have seen these matters over time-

 

http://www.pdgart.com/poetry.html

 

I also agree with the various clarifications of often/always etc that you made... language will often need clarification after some more thinking and relating.

 

Namaste- Pat the Wayfarer

Edited April 2, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Eric23]

I've sat back and have read this thread with great interest. Reading everyone's points of view has been very educational.

 

When I was 6 years old, my parents, meaning well, enrolled me in a Catholic school to get a better education than the public schools offered. The rub is that we are not Catholic. So I went to school for the first day and got hit right between the eyes with pre Vatican II, old school Catholism. Six years later we moved to a small town in Arizona that had much to my relief, only public schools. Those first years soured me on organized religion for my entire life. Towards the end of high school I found myself hanging out with evangelical Christians. It didn't take too long for the "organized" part of that religion to chase me away. The good part of these experiences is that I learned that there is more than meets the eye when it comes to this world. So here I am, learning that the Tao does a pretty darn good job of explaining what does and does not meet the eye. Given my background, guess I'll never fit into religious Taoism. When it comes to sex and alchemy, Taomeow's cooking metaphor works for me. Being an artist, I've ruined many a painting by not knowing when to stop.