When John Chang says....

[Seeker of Wisdom]

"Being focused on an object either internal or external to a superhuman degree leads to Jhana, Jhana is not trance."

 

Yet, you say focus in the waking state is worthless. WTF? Why would you pass up jhana for trance? How many people become masters from being hypnotised vs. how many have become masters from shamatha?

 

"One pointed concentration itself does not allow you to enter into trance" great, because there's less risk of me slipping into trance then!

 

By 'trance', you MUST be referring to something entirely different. There's no way you really believe the state of someone just before passing out is a good thing for cultivation.

[Thunder_Gooch]

If you are saying here that focus is good

Focus is critical, but only if done from a state of trance. One pointed concentration doesn't lead to the state between waking and sleeping, it doesn't lead to suspended metabolic animation.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Buddhist practice don't go where I am wanting to go, they go somewhere else.

 

So you aren't trying to realise Tao? You don't want to develop good qualities, stability of mind, non-conceptual insight and realisation of Tao? I don't see what else cultivation could be for, unless you're just messing around with chi and spirits all day long.

[Thunder_Gooch]

haven't you noticed that the level of focus possible in trance is inherently lower than that while fully conscious?

I am not sure who told you this, or where you got that idea, but I find the opposite is true. Only in trance is my mind pacified enough to focus, only via trance can I end my monkey mind.

 

I think you've got the totally wrong idea about what trance is, what it is like and what it does.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Focus is critical, but only if done from a state of trance. One pointed concentration doesn't lead to the state between waking and sleeping, it doesn't lead to suspended metabolic animation.

 

If you think that, it sounds like you tried shamatha for a bit and gave up because it actually takes discipline and effort and patience.

 

Trance is inherently a state with low focus. Stop using the word trance, and tell me what you do to enter what you mean by trance so I know what you are actually talking about.

[Thunder_Gooch]

If you value focus, then you should start at waking consciousness then go to higher focus where consciousness and unconsciousness are really, properly not separate.

I will repeat this again.

 

You must be in the state between waking and sleeping (trance) to begin the meditation I practice.

 

If you practice something else and were taught to do something else, that is fine.

 

We can agree to disagree, and you can move on with your life.

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I will repeat this again.You must be in the state between waking and sleeping (trance) to begin the meditation I practice.If you practice something else and were taught to do something else, that is fine.We can agree to disagree, and you can move on with your life.

tell me what you do to enter what you mean by trance so I know what you are actually talking about.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Thunder_Gooch]

Focusing from waking consciousness (shamatha) trains out the hindrances of restlessness and torpor, making it possible to reach the actual states of jhana between consciousness and unconsciousness. It also improves meta-cognition and mindfulness, leading to a less reactionary person who acts, thinks and speaks with more wisdom because they are not slaves to previous habits.

 

It then becomes possible to progress to vipassana practice, where the mind that has been developed through shamatha focuses on the nature of experience itself while letting go of all clinging to forms and mental phenomena, to gain prajna. Prajna then leads to dropping all conceptual limitation to realise Tao.

 

 

It is not possible to just jump to letting go and seeing Tao, BTW, because any letting go done without great prajna is still limited within the constraints of mind and awareness, mind and awareness are still clung to as the things that are 'doing' the letting go. A sword cannot cut itself.

 

 

 

You've got your system and it works for you. That is awesome.

 

I've got my system and it works for me.

 

If you want to create a thread for discussion of your path, that would be a better solution in my opinion.

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Please explain how trance progresses to Tao realisation.

I am not attempting to achieve Tao realization. I am focused on extracting chi from the environment.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Can you explain what you do to enter trance, so I get what you are talking about. The dictionary describes trance as the state of someone under hypnosis, which is clearly not the particular form of being neither awake nor asleep that you are talking about.

[Thunder_Gooch]

trances are good because they feel calm and a book says so?

A profoundly deep state of trance between waking and sleeping IS the only state it is even possible to work with chi in any meaningful way.

[Thunder_Gooch]

If we are in trance for months as embryos and much of the time as babies, and trance is good cultivation, why aren't more people highly realised, why aren't young children all masters?

Oh my bad, materializing into a recognizable form out of raw chaos is a pretty dull thing indeed.

 

Trance is the state that allows you to work with chi, one pointed concentration allows you to extract it.

 

I am not aiming for realization, millions of Buddhists do that every day and achieve high levels of it and still die like dogs and are still reborn. In my opinion they wasted a perfectly good lifetime pursuing garbage.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Can you explain what you do to enter trance, so I get what you are talking about. The dictionary describes trance as the state of someone under hypnosis, which is clearly not the particular form of being neither awake nor asleep that you are talking about.

 

Could you take 5 seconds to explain! Clearly you mean something different by the word 'trance', and for heaven's sake don't tell me it's in between waking and sleeping because that describes someone just before passing out as much as it does whatever you are talking about.

[Thunder_Gooch]

does that mean people should be practicing trances on a regular basis as a main method in its own right?

Depends on your goal for practice.

 

Sounds to me like you have sour grapes because not everyone shares your goal whatever that is.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Don't use the word trance then

That is the correct word for it.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

OK, I'm done with this thread. Clearly you are just not reading my posts any more, and you have no interest in anything about cultivation besides messing about with chi to try to become physically immortal. Good luck making the impermanent eternal, without even dharmakaya or mere jhana attainments ROFL.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Explain what you do to enter trance, that will make it clearer to me what exactly you are talking about.

 

I drink a cup of chamomile tea, take 500mg of magnesium citrate, 20mg of melatonin, and 400mg of L-theanine.

 

I check to make sure the grounding wire is in place, on my chair.

 

I put my mp3 player on repeat with my meditation mp3 of a babbling brook and Tibetan singing bowls, it is not music, it helps drown out thoughts and helps me relax.

 

I put on my mindfold.

 

I sit in my chair and try to "relax", slowing my breath down slower and slower, until it reaches the point where I require almost no oxygen.

 

The point at which I can no longer hear my mp3, I realize I am in light trance, and I continue deeper until I can see clearly eyes blindfolded.

 

I will begin one pointed concentration at this point.

 

If I need a bathroom break which at some point I usually do, I will move to half lotus for 30 minutes before switching back to the chair.

[Thunder_Gooch]

The same principle of virtue, samadhi and prajna is absolutely universal. Training in the state of a hypnotised person is the exact opposite of samadhi, and therefore trance is useless. Unless we are just misunderstanding each other based on words?

I could not care less what it is or is not the opposite of.

 

Look at the topic of the thread, it doesn't read John Chang teaches Buddhist Samadhi meditation does it?

 

Trance is not useless for what I study, it is absolutely 100% mission critical.

 

If you don't like this, stick to your practice and move on with your life.

 

I found something that works for me, you found something that works for you.

 

Awesome!

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Explain what you do to enter trance, that will make it clearer to me what exactly you are talking about.

 

 

See page 8 of this thread.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Yet, you say focus in the waking state is worthless. WTF?

Look at the topic of the thread, it doesn't read John Chang teaches Buddhist Samadhi meditation does it?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Why would you pass up jhana for trance?

Trance is just the state you have to be in to begin, one pointed concentration while in that state takes it to another level. This is the only method I am aware of to effectively let you extract and store chi.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

OK then. A state of torpor with awareness artificially bolstered by substances. You are emulating the relaxation and non-conceptuality of real meditation through trance, and trying to cover over the dullness inherent to trance by taking 920mg of various things to meditate properly.

 

I'd suggest just exercising a little effort in learning real meditation, but clearly you're too attached to your 'path' to consider the idea that it may be actually less a 'path' and more of a 'trip in a shopping cart over a cliff'.

 

I understand, after all I did AYP for two years and also fucked around with stuff unrelated to enlightenment that really doesn't matter before that.

 

Good luck MPG.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Thunder_Gooch]

How many people become masters from being hypnotised vs. how many have become masters from shamatha?

Masters of what vs masters of what?

 

How many masters of Mo Pai stayed in the state between waking and sleeping to do their meditation?

 

I guess ALL of them.

 

How many masters of Buddhist meditation stayed in shamatha? I am not sure, probably most of them?

 

I think perhaps the reason we are having this debate in the first place is you believe all roads lead to Rome, they don't.

 

I am not heading in the direction you are heading.

 

I believe you are in the wrong forum/topic.

 

This might help:

 

http://thetaobums.com/forum/183-buddhist-discussion/

[Thunder_Gooch]

There's no way you really believe the state of someone just before passing out is a good thing for cultivation.

 

 

 

"You pass through it now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to remember how.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 82)

 

 

Yes way.

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

a good thing for cultivation.

 

.

"Good thing" is an understatement. Absolutely 100% critical is more like it. Only for this form of cultivation. There are many.

 

If your form says different and the masters of your form of cultivation achieve the goals you are looking for then stick with them.

 

However this thread isn't about Buddhist Samatha cultivation.

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy