When John Chang says....

[Thunder_Gooch]

Ending rebirth is the end goal, and so far mo pai is the only school I know of that claims to offer a method to that end.

 

If there are others that have such methods they are lost on me, a secret method of Phowa that deals with transference of mind to a new body before death is the only other method I've heard of and it is not taught anywhere that I am aware of.

 

 

I don't understand how obsessed some people are with chi. It's still just form! What does it have to do with Tao? We do need to develop our chi for sure, but let's not forget the far more significant things: virtue, mind, insight. And even those are nothing but the features of an extraordinary but still deluded being, without making the actual leap through the gateless gate. So I sigh at the people constantly playing with chi channels and circulations. That stuff has a place, but acting like the body is the supreme thing and getting a perfect body is itself liberation suggests no awareness of the basic point of cultivation - transcending all phenomena to realise Tao.

Edited July 4, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Seeker of Wisdom]

If there are others that have such methods they are lost on me, a secret method of Phowa that deals with transference of mind to a new body before death is the only other method I've heard of and it is not taught anywhere that I am aware of.

That's still not mastery of rebirth, because you have to be reborn. Someone forced to walk away is more free than someone forced to walk along a track, but a fully free person should be able to stand still, and teleport.

 

So realisation of Tao, the root of birth and death, is needed. Any school with correct development of virtue, samadhi and prajna would lead to that. Any school that says much more about those than chi, emphasises the Tao as beyond conception, and emphasises vividness in meditation is decent IMO. Some practice directly focused on chi would speed things up, but too much emphasis and it doesn't lead to much but a slightly clearer mind and a serious fixation with the body.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Kasuku]

^ what about longmenpai - ur guaranteed 1000 years of life and then infinite years of being with the dao

[Ish]

I am sure that full lotus is optimal, but a profoundly deep state of trance makes a lot more difference to how fast you progress. Just sitting full lotus itself does absolutely nothing, you must be in the correct state of consciousness with laser like focus while in a state of metabolic suspended animation for long periods of time.

 

I feel like you do the practice reclining/laying down. Wonder what John Chang would say... haha

[Thunder_Gooch]

I have a massage chair with a grounding wire dedicated to this purpose, comfortable enough to get deep into trance, not comfortable enough to go to sleep. Once I hit deep levels of trance for a few hours, I might switch to half lotus for 30-45 minutes on the grounding wire and then return to the massage chair.

 

 

 

 

I feel like you do the practice reclining/laying down. Wonder what John Chang would say... haha

[Kasuku]

LOL WHY

[Kasuku]

lol practicing neigong on a massage chair hhahhaha... thats just too funny

[voidisyinyang]

If your body is full of chi - when the lower tan tien is full - then 2 hours of full lotus in ease - or 4 hours of full lotus at least as Wang Liping did. It's simple - and you can't cheat - the mind otherwise creates delusions of grandeur.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Because it is optimal for inducing trance imho, it is very comfortable but not so comfortable you can fall asleep. I also use a blindfold, melatonin, magnesium, L-Theanine, and a meditation mp3 to help induce the trance state.

 

 

 

LOL WHY

Edited July 4, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Funnier than meditating without knowing what state you are supposed to be in during the meditation?

 

lol practicing neigong on a massage chair hhahhaha... thats just too funny

[Ish]

If your body is full of chi - when the lower tan tien is full - then 2 hours of full lotus in ease - or 4 hours of full lotus at least as Wang Liping did. It's simple - and you can't cheat - the mind otherwise creates delusions of grandeur.

 

I believe you said that in the past you didn't store in Lower dantian and yet you could sit in full lotus as long as you want.

 

Also i know people who can sit in full lotus with comfort and ease, they definitely don't have any decent chi development.

[Ish]

Because it is optimal for inducing trance imho, it is very comfortable but not so comfortable you can fall asleep.

 

Well the circulation is different when you are upright compared to a supported spine. I think there is a reason all the qigong/neigong do their main practices upright.

[Kasuku]

you dont need trance - u need focused concentration - its substance with emptiness - yang within yin - its not yin within yin - thats the yin po taking over, making the mind, chi, spirit all scattered...

 

Full lotus or half lotus is best - with the spirit raised with the crown point extended,spine straight, chest deflated, mingmen pointing a tad outwards -

 

You don't need delta state to draw in yang chi- you can draw it in while talking to someone - you just breathe from ur nose to ur dantian - its very simple...

 

when in meditation u use your mind to draw in energy from the ens of the universe through your pores in to the dantian like a big ball going into the small hard ball into dantian, then energy expands through all the pores back to the end of the universe, the more concentrated the better, and the more fine your breath the better - 2 breaths a minute - or 10 sec inhale 10 sec hold ten sec exhale,

[Edward M]

This is gonna probably make you laugh, but a pure devotee of Christ, not just one who has water poured over their head and goes to church a few times a week, will overcome rebirth and have an immortal spirit body retaining their essential I'ness before physical death.

 

Peace

[Thunder_Gooch]

Ish,

 

I use my massage chair to help me get into the zone. I also use a blindfold, melatonin, magnesium, L-Theanine, and a meditation mp3 to help induce the trance state. It takes many many hours to get deep enough for any meaningful meditation.

 

It is conducive for trance but not sleep.

 

I cannot sit in half lotus long enough to hit the zone I need to be in for optimal meditation.

 

I can sit for 10 hours in the massage chair without much discomfort. It can take 10 hours for me to get deep enough in trance to have any meaningful meditation at all.

 

Once I am in the zone, I can transfer to half lotus for 30 minutes or so before returning to the massage chair.

 

It's the best solution I've been able to come up with.

 

Well the circulation is different when you are upright compared to a supported spine. I think there is a reason all the qigong/neigong do their main practices upright.

Edited July 4, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

This is why I don't take you seriously.

 

 

 

you dont need trance

[Thunder_Gooch]

you dont need trance

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (p. 52)

[Thunder_Gooch]

you dont need trance

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are

thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you

are also not in meditation. You must become like a baby in the womb,

there and yet not there. Meditation is like the borderline between

sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

“Very difficult.”

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long peri-

ods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it

now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to remember how.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 82)

[Thunder_Gooch]

you dont need trance

 

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline between sleep and waking, okay?"

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (p. 56)

[Thunder_Gooch]

u need focused concentration

Yes you need that as well, but it's only part of the equation, being physically grounded to the earth, and in a profoundly deep state trance and metabolic suspended animation are also parts.

 

You guys keep plugging your ears to this though I am not sure why exactly.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Full lotus or half lotus is best - with the spirit raised with the crown point extended,spine straight, chest deflated, mingmen pointing a tad outwards -

Yes full lotus is optimal, half lotus is suboptimal. The point is moot if you do not meet the other criteria in meditation however. You can't sit on full lotus on the toilet and visualize unicorns and expect it to have any effect.

[Thunder_Gooch]

You either care about what was taught or you don't. Getting into a profoundly deep state of trance is the key you and virtually everyone else on this forum neglect. Too much effort I guess, I am not really sure. Next is metabolic suspended animation. Then comes being physically/electrically grounded to the earth at the perineum point. Then comes focus as you mentioned. Then comes full or half lotus.

 

I come off as such an ******* because I actually give a **** about keeping this knowledge pure and true.

 

blah blah blah

[Kasuku]

lol u changed my quote - i never daid "blah blah blah" - i said you dont need trance to draw in yang but its 1000x better in meditation... and im not talking about visualization, im taking about doing it with your Yi

Edited July 4, 2013 by Jascha

[gendao]

... "this chi stuff is only the surface of the real adventure beneath in the meditational technique"

 

What does he mean?

Perhaps what Nan Huai-chin meant too:

7. You want to become a buddha after learning from me? I'm 90 already, and I still haven't seen a real Buddha or immortal yet. Stop being superstitious. All the books I wrote are only book knowledge and intellectual. Don't get tricked by those books. Lwen Yu Summary is my main effort. There are many places to learn Zen. Go over there to meditate. I've never promoted Buddhism. When I did have Zen classes, those were just organized by colleges, and the people were screened vigorously. We just did some research together. Afterwards, everyone still had to go back to live normal lives, to rub against the difficulties of life to strengthen their heart, and to improve their habits. Everyone must walk their own paths.

You want help from other people? Help yourself! If you really believe in cause and effect, start by using proper motivation and personal inspection is the intelligent way to begin. This is cultivation's heart. Your eyes are always looking outward, blaming heaven and earth, relying on gurus and saints and teachers to worship. This is self-deception and playing a joke on the world.

I've haphazardly come to the same opinion at the moment, myself. That qigong is just a tool along the path - that also deals with much larger, overarching, archetypal themes. So, if you merely focus on its technical aspects, you are missing the bigger picture..

 

 

That said, what exactly does "fusing Yin & Yang" mean? Because normally, you can't "fuse" +/- electromagnetic polarities. And perpendicular waves like electricity & magnetism are already naturally fused. So, what exactly does it mean?

If you "fuse" Yin & Yang, do you get them stuck together like a Taiji, or regressed into some nondual, xiantian wuji state?

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Just sitting full lotus itself does absolutely nothing, you must be in the correct state of consciousness with laser like focus while in a state of metabolic suspended animation for long periods of time.

Remember me debating you about trance, along with TI and Spotless? I wouldn't have disagreed with your position at all, had I realised your interpretation of the word 'trance' included laser like focus.

 

Many people generally use the word 'trance' to describe a zoned out state of mind, dead tree Zen, like someone hypnotised or a rock. I'm sure that's not what you're aiming for at all.

 

When I say shamatha/access concentration/jhana, and you refer to levels of trance, based on the bolded quote it seems we are saying the same thing with emphasis on different aspects... miscommunicating. You emphasise non-conceptuality and I emphasise vividness, we misunderstand and think each other neglects our emphasised aspect of meditation.

 

Maybe if you said something like 'vivid trance' or 'alert trance', it would prevent people who see 'trance' as having connotations of laxity/torpor misunderstanding and starting a pointless debate.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Seeker of the Self