Two great books by Master Nan

[Seeker of Wisdom]

'Working Towards Enlightenment' and 'To Realise Enlightenment' by Master Nan are two must reads.

 

They so clearly express what cultivation is ultimately about, transcending the skhandas, the real relationship between chi and cultivation, how any experiential realms created by the 8 consciousnesses - including apparent empty purity - are not Tao.

 

They explain that disciplined practice is important in Zen - it's not just a mind-game where someone slaps you or you introspect a little and boom you're a Buddha, as a lot of people say - just like in all Buddhism.

 

They cover dead tree Zen and misguided silent illumination Zen, various meditation methods, and the paramount importance of virtue - really transforming yourself, not just avoiding everything to meditate for your own sake - and more!

 

These books explain so much and draw on texts and theory from Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism... free on scribd, but priceless.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[voidisyinyang]

Kinda strange how he died from pneumonia and he was a smoker - I mean he lived to be old but he says how if the body is sick then you can't empty out the mind at your last breath and so your spirit just goes into the void.

 

https://www.createspace.com/4039328

 

Bodri's new book is finally done.

 

Hmm - I wish he would comment on how Nan died vis a vis Nan's teachings....

 

He taught too much is my take on it. Too many students - too much talking - not enough meditation, etc.

Edited June 22, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Jetsun]

I think it shows that most of what people write about death is conjecture, that you don't really know anything about the future or when or how you might die. Even if he was a high level master he would still have karma to process.

[Mandrake]

Kinda strange how he died from pneumonia and he was a smoker - I mean he lived to be old but he says how if the body is sick then you can't empty out the mind at your last breath and so your spirit just goes into the void.

 

https://www.createspace.com/4039328

 

Bodri's new book is finally done.

 

Hmm - I wish he would comment on how Nan died vis a vis Nan's teachings....

 

He taught too much is my take on it. Too many students - too much talking - not enough meditation, etc.

 

You totally misunderstand his quote about emptying the mind; I could tell you about the encounters many of my friends have had with him, but I would be wasting my time. An ant trying to judge a lion. Get back to your mother's basement.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You're so full of sh*t. Enough that you totally misunderstand his quote about emptying the mind; I could tell you about the encounters many of my friends have had with him, but I would be wasting my time. An ant trying to judge a lion. Get back to your mother's basement.

 

Hi Mandrake

Yes, I am curious too. I had never heard of Master Nan until I read this thread about a letter that he 'may have written':

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26671-master-nan-huai-chin-dead-at-94/?p=417647

 

7. You want to become a buddha after learning from me? I'm 90 already, and I still haven't seen a real Buddha or immortal yet. Stop being superstitious. All the books I wrote are only book knowledge and intellectual. Don't get tricked by those books. Lwen Yu Summary is my main effort. There are many places to learn Zen. Go over there to meditate. I've never promoted Buddhism. When I did have Zen classes, those were just organized by colleges, and the people were screened vigorously. We just did some research together. Afterwards, everyone still had to go back to live normal lives, to rub against the difficulties of life to strengthen their heart, and to improve their habits. Everyone must walk their own paths.

You want help from other people? Help yourself! If you really believe in cause and effect, start by using proper motivation and personal inspection is the intelligent way to begin. This is cultivation's heart. Your eyes are always looking outward, blaming heaven and earth, relying on gurus and saints and teachers to worship. This is self-deception and playing a joke on the world.

 

Perhaps you did not see that link?

 

So if you have any stories in support of Master Nan's accomplishments or abilities, I too would love to hear them.

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

That letter reads like good skilful means to me, telling people to be grounded about cultivation.

 

Assuming it was possible for Master Nan to greatly prolong his life (even eternally), why would he have? I don't think it would really be good for the world to have a master out there, reaching 90, 110, 130, 150 years old with the body of a young man. Imagine how obsessed with longevity everyone would get - yes, everyone would get into cultivation teachings and practice. But, with a materialistic motivation and a very strong clinging to the physical body. It would only make things worse! People would end up more like asuras than Buddhas.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Mandrake]

That letter reads like good skilful means to me, telling people to be grounded about cultivation.

 

Assuming it was possible for Master Nan to greatly prolong his life (even eternally), why would he have? I don't think it would really be good for the world to have a master out there, reaching 90, 110, 130, 150 years old with the body of a young man. Imagine how obsessed with longevity everyone would get - yes, everyone would get into cultivation teachings and practice. But, with a materialistic motivation and a very strong clinging to the physical body. It would only make things worse! People would end up more like asuras than Buddhas.

 

He already prolonged his life twice.

 

And yes, the letter is definitely for people to be grounded about cultivation; many just loose contact with the world, getting into fantasies; many others want to find another set of parents to lean against.

 

 

M

[Mandrake]

M, If you don't mind, would you explain the emptying the mind? To me, it's reminds me of the Shurangama Sutra, emptying out each senses that is illumined them. Not really emptying in the way the word makes it sound.

 

Malik:

 

Sure, but bear in mind that I don't fully comprehend it myself. Five years ago I got some understanding, now, I see it differently, ten years from now I will understand with new and much more depth; it has to do with my own practice and merits. So don't be locked by what I say, and consider always seeking for new depths and not letting any truths become stale and intellectual.

 

The relevant passage is from the book "Working Toward Enlightenment", p. 204.

 

Indeed you are correct: The Shurangama sutra definitely has bearing here, and is discussed in the two books. You have to string together all the wisdom and teachings in both volumes to understand what he points at; stupid people are unable to do this.

 

Health, illness, forms, shapes, qi, all expressions of the six senses belong to the form skandha. Emptying this out, in the context that he speaks about, is a wisdom attainment, not just non-focus on these phenomena when you are sitting on your cushion. When you completely empty out the form skandha, consider it like a mirror which reflects forms - whatever they are - but they do not stick to it. Your mind after this achievement is not attaching, fusing, identifying to any form. You don't push your sixth consciousness habitually into a body of any sort, into form, you don't clutch your qi to your body, or hold on to it out of habit.

 

You've firmly established that the real Source of "you", is beyond any form, and hence in one way it does not matter if your body ages, if it gets ill, if it is muscular, beautiful, is filled with qi etc.

Whatever you do - sit, walk, eat, speak, run, dream - this revolution of your mind continues, and is not a fleeting glimpse of insight.

 

At the moment of death, if you empty out the five skandhas, and you are not bound by feelings or sensations, then of course you don't just get sucked into oblivion.

 

To get some better understanding, buy the book(s) and read the whole chapter so that you get the context and the exact quote (he does NOT say that " if the body is sick then you can't empty out the mind at your last breath and so your spirit just goes into the void").

 

 

Wish you the best,

Mandrake

[Ish]

Would also appreciate any stories you have about Master Nan, Mandrake.

[voidisyinyang]

You're so full of sh*t. Enough that you totally misunderstand his quote about emptying the mind; I could tell you about the encounters many of my friends have had with him, but I would be wasting my time. An ant trying to judge a lion. Get back to your mother's basement.

 

 

Yes Mandrake several people now say they want to hear your stories about your interactions with Master Nan, Huai-chin - please share!!

 

What am I full of shit about?

 

Did he die of pneumonia?

 

This is the quote I was referring to:

 

 

There are many people who cultivate practice until they are very pure, but their

bodies are all sick…. When they really get to the brink of death, they cannot

completely empty out that one moment of thought, and so they sink down into

oblivion following it. So the moment of purity that they attained, frankly

speaking, is something material, something that is linked to their physical health.

Can something like this be relied upon? It cannot.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), p. 204.

[Cheshire Cat]

There are many people who cultivate practice until they are very pure, but their

bodies are all sick…. When they really get to the brink of death, they cannot

completely empty out that one moment of thought, and so they sink down into

oblivion following it. So the moment of purity that they attained, frankly

speaking, is something material, something that is linked to their physical health.

Can something like this be relied upon? It cannot.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), p. 204.

 

It's not that those who die sick fall into oblivion, but those who cannot sustain a pure state independent from the bodily conditions... they may fall into oblivion even if they have great purity of mind.

 

He stressed this point many times: you can purify your qi channels for decades and achieve great samadhi states... but the minute you fall sick, your realization is gone because your stable mind is stable because of your chi channels and they are material and impermanent things. So, your stable mind is impermanent.

Hence, one should cultivate a mind that can sustain adverse conditions and that it's not dependent on the physical body.

Edited July 9, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Cheshire Cat]

Sorry, my english is really bad.

 

edited my previous post

Edited July 9, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[ChiForce]

Say what?

I think that you shouldn't get sick because you have gained the mastery of your body, through the cultivation of the mind. Master Nan often makes the point that there is no point to cultivate and meditate if you haven't managed to cultivate your body as well. As soon as you get sick or in your old age, according to him, your mind becomes the object of your body. The body is controlling you.

[joeblast]

Why shouldn't they get sick or feel pain?

because health is pretty much a primary manifestation of any decent practice. So what makes a supposedly accomplished cultivator decide .that he's invincible?

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[voidisyinyang]

3 bulbs of organic garlic would have been a good start.

 

I know garlic is considered -- umm.... too smelly? Or.... creates fluids, etc.

[joeblast]

Yeah, that was my assumption.

 

 

Breaking free of limitations of the mind?

false thinking/views of whatever sort