How to develop unconditional love?

[Songtsan]

 

Interesting. So you would say the same thing to Lao Tzu if he happened by.

 

Yes! I would love to play the game with him...if he wanted to...that is. I hope I wasn't mistaken in thinking you wanted to play? Just checking....

[baiqi]

You made very good points, Vmarco, but I have to disagree with that one:

 

 

The Christian god is a god to be feared,...for he forgives nothing (just read the Bible)

 

This is the "God" of the 1st testament, the "God" of the Hebrews, and later jewish (and possibly muslim, but that is another story).

 

Jesus told about a God of Love and Forgivness, on the other hand.But, he couldn't break directly from Judaism in speech, he had to adapt to his audience.

 

The problem is that Christianity put the two testaments togeteher. While this is relevent in terms of History, there are so many contradictions in terms of philosophy...

 

Actually, look at Christians behavior in general: when they do right things, they usually justify their actions with the 2nd Testament. When they talk s**t, they use the 1st Testament to justify it.

 

Might be a little simplistic, but I've observed this many times.

[baiqi]

Songtsan: stop these pills right now!

[Songtsan]

 

What! god and Jesus are 2 of the most unforgiving fabrications ever devised.

 

The Christian god is a god to be feared,...for he forgives nothing (just read the Bible). And Jesus,...his love at best can be compared to a pre-American Civil war slave owner with a fishing problem.

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Jesus….Matthew 5:17

 

This is a stated belief, and is thus based on your own unique belief system

 

 

Conscious Love is imposible to realize through the filters of belief.

 

As the 1st Century Gnostic text says,..."when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid".

 

More beliefs, also quoting one of a belief systems tenants

 

Pretty much any statement you make is based on your belief, and is sure to have been something that has occurred at least once before, and is thus systematized. Even people who only ask questions, use a systematized belief protocol in order to phrase said question, thus they are also acting from a belief system in dozens of ways. For example, if I asked you, "How are you doing?" I believe in the following: 1) that these words mean something to you 2) That you are interested in talking with me and will answer 3) that you are 'doing' at all 4) that you feel one way or another (related to #3) 5) etc. I take for granted that you believe what I believe in this - in thinking that you understand what I mean. So the belief system is inherent in the question (or statement). Social norms are shared belief systems - rules that we operate (or choose not to) on a daily basis, thousands of times a day. To even disagree with someone is stating an anti-belief in their belief, which is still a belief. You cannot escape beliefs in duality. There is always the Believer, who is caught in the act of believing, being one with their belief (which is feeling). To think that there is any truth whatsoever is a belief, even the belief that there are no beliefs. Inescapable! Can you believe it? (I dont believe any of what I just wrote...which is still a statement of belief). I give up. Please if you can, make one statement, or ask me one question that lacks belief...even if you answered me with emptiness, by saying nothing, you are still believing something in your head. Your lack of an answer is also a statement, which while not clearly stating your belief, indicates that you believed something enough to answer me with no-answer. So you would be offering me a no-offering, which is based on your belief system, and would still be offering me something therefore. All offerings are shared beliefs that there is an 'offerer,' 'offeree,' and an act of offering. You probably also believe that these are all one. I agree. Belief in one thing is belief. All definitions are beliefs. All shared definitions are shared belief systems. Any time you think you know, or think you dont know, these are both still thinking - all thinking is beliefs, all words are thought constructs, all thought constructs are mind fabrications, all mind fabrications are duality, and are thus illusions. Beliefs are illusions, illusions are beliefs, and this belief that belief is an illusion is an illusion. To believe that there is such a thing as an illusion is an illusion. To have no belief is emptiness. To talk of emptiness is to believe in emptiness. Very difficult if not impossible to communicate over the internet especially without relying on illusions. Impossible to talk over the internet using emptiness. We are very full all the time, even though we are empty. Emptiness does not exist on its own, it must co-exist with fullness. Fullness = belief, fullness is self full of beliefs. All that you are full of is belief. Even using the words 'you' 'I' 'me' 'we' or 'mine' indicates belief in some aggregate 'I' self that is also an illusion. Even saying that you are only speaking conventionally so as to be able to communicate, but that your intent is not to project your belief system onto others, is projecting your belief system (that you are not intending to project your belief system) onto their minds. All attempts to communicate are attempts to sway. All attempts to make oneself known to others are attempts to 'make known.' The key word is make. We are all attempting to change brain electricity/neurons here - to alter the reality of other peoples brains, their perceptions, their understanding, and thus their beliefs - if only temporary - you are attempting to be understood as you speak - and even if you only want to be understood in the moment, (i.e. have someone understand your point of view, or approach such a zenith), you are seeking to change belief. Understanding = belief. Words = belief. Thoughts = belief. Feelings = belief. These things have all been systematized in our neural net. Belief systems. See the definitions below. Look up all the definitions for every word within the definitions, and you will find that beliefs = all the things stated above and more. Since every thing contained within our neural net is part of the system, you cannot take a part away from the whole. So even the smallest part of something is part of the system, and thus is a system (see 'holos' or holographic model). Your thought construction of 'I' is a system. An aggregate compound. Thus in using the term 'I' in conversation, you automatically assume that the other person believes as you do - that there is an aggregate 'I' that we all have, and that they know what you mean. Assumptions = beliefs. You assume I know what the words you use mean (and you are mostly correct, but the same word, no matter what it is, always means something slightly different from person to person, based on their understanding/belief of what it means). By using social norms at all, you expect that the shared belief system (social norms = beliefs), is held in common. You cannot escape - if you can prove to me that you can, I will bless you a thousand times for removing my ignorance. Only a mind that is completely clear of fabrications (including 'I' constructs) is free of beliefs...this is just my belief system of course...what do I know of that? never been there.

 

be·lief

/biˈlēf/

Noun

1. An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
2. Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

 

Synonyms

faith - trust - confidence - persuasion - credence

sys·tem

/ˈsistəm/

Noun

1. A set of connected things or parts forming a complex whole, in particular.
2. A set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.

 

 

 

 

 

One thing everyone on TTB can be assured of,...is that I will never offer them a belief system,..."anyone who gives you a belief system, is your enemy."

 

 

Edited June 23, 2013 by Songtsan

[Marblehead]

This is a stated belief, and is thus based on your own unique belief system

 

 

More beliefs, also quoting one of a belief systems tenants

Yeah, hehehe. He does get personally involved in what he posts now and again. (Yes, so do I.)

 

A belief of non-belief sounds just like a belief.

 

Is unconditional love still alive and well?

[Songtsan]

Songtsan: stop these pills right now!

 

LMAO - What pills? Mind pills? Thought pills? Belief pills? Illusion pills? Thought construct pills? Mental fabrication pills? No-pills? 'I' pills? Your pills? My pills? Our pills? The pills? Anti-pills? Inverse loop pills? Idea pills? Momentary idea pills? System pills? Ego pills? Truth pills? Falseness pills? Emptiness pills? Fullness pills? Anything pills? Everything pills? Game playing pills? Serious not-game pills? Ego-stroking pills? Buddha pills? Kali-pills? Poison pills? Pleasure pills? Happy pills? Sad pills? Both happy and sad pills? Nonexistent pills? Both pill and not-pill pills? Not pills and not-not-pills? Beautiful illusions/ugly illusion pills? All pills? No not-pills? Pills that give thrills? Pills that help me climb hills? Pills that pay the bills? Pills that had their fill of rhyming pills and say just take a chill pill on da fo rill dill pills? Pills that eat other pills? Pills that ate my brain pills? My brain that ate the pills pills? Songs that sing trills pills? Had your fill of pills pills? Want more pills?

Edited June 23, 2013 by Songtsan

[Vmarco]

 

 

Pretty much any statement you make is based on your belief, and is sure to have been something that has occurred at least once before, and is thus systematized.

 

No,...I'd agree however that every statement you make is based on your belief system,...my life ceased doing that 14 years ago,...which was 24 years after I first met a dakini.

 

When one consciously pivots from the Present, beliefs are seen as beliefs. No consciousness attached to time, for example, the 6 lower senses that you cling to for your identity, can be conscious of the Present. There is no Present in time. The present cannot be accessed through the skandhas.

 

So...your "looking at yourself and finding anything you see in yourself that could be applied to others...everything about your own shortcomings" is a delusional belief arises from your skandha mind. The skandha mind is always in the past,...and does not, and cannot pivot from the Present.

 

Belief is a condition,...and conditions can never fuse with the Unconditional.

 

I did enjoy your game of "I am Kali"...if you look at it long enough, perhaps you will see past the past, and realize a flash of the Present.

 

Again,...you can never, and will never, bring your conditions into the Unconditional. What you are doing now, is building upon conditions, so that you're "looking at yourself and finding anything you see in yourself that could be applied to others...everything about your own shortcomings"

 

The difficulty that most sophomores make, is the belief that the Unconditional can be found through conditions. The Unconditional can only be realized by letting go of conditions.

 

A real Dakini is an assassin of your beliefs,...of your conditions. Anyone who promotes, or tolerates beliefs is your enemy.

[Vmarco]

You made very good points, Vmarco, but I have to disagree with that one:

 

 

This is the "God" of the 1st testament, the "God" of the Hebrews, and later jewish (and possibly muslim, but that is another story).

 

Jesus told about a God of Love and Forgivness, on the other hand.

No,...Jesus never spoke of a god of love,...in fact,...in the whole of their Holy Book, the Bible, it only suggests the idea that their God is love at the very end, in the late 2nd Century apology 1John. In fact, when viewing the full length and breadth of the Bible, their Patriarch is clearly a murderous, pro-slavery, vacillant, petty, racist, conditional God. And amazingly, a God who is so insecure, that it demands to be worshiped, obeyed, feared and prayed to.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

No,...Jesus never spoke of a god of love,...in fact,...in the whole of their Holy Book, the Bible, it only suggests the idea that their God is love at the very end, in the late 2nd Century apology 1John. In fact, when viewing the full length and breadth of the Bible, their Patriarch is clearly a murderous, pro-slavery, vacillant, petty, racist, conditional God. And amazingly, a God who is so insecure, that it demands to be worshiped, obeyed, feared and prayed to.

I agree, for the most part. However! I don't think there are any Christians on here, so why bother arguing about their god with people who don't believe in him anyway... go to a church and say this if it matters so much to you.

 

 

Also, your beliefs about the evils of beliefs seem like a bit of a mind trap. Believing that beliefs cannot access the Present is still a belief in itself, which sets up an AVERSION to concepts. Do you see the problem here?

 

False thoughts don't need to be emptied - they ARE empty. So lighten up your clinging to non-belief, and just cultivate without clinging to belief or non-belief until gnosis dawns, without you having to try to force it by playing with the 6th consciousness.

 

You are trying to create gnosis in your mind by suppressing concepts... what you've created is just another matrix in the bounds of the conceptual mind! A rock has no beliefs, so is it enlightened? Activate the mind without dwelling anywhere.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Vmarco]

I agree, for the most part. However! I don't think there are any Christians on here, so why bother arguing about their god with people who don't believe in him anyway... go to a church and say this if it matters so much to you.

I disagree. Many here were indoctrinated into the Abrahamic Theist beliefs, and attempt to "bring" them along into their study of Daoism and Buddhism. I've personally seen more people than I would venture to number, who get quite upset that Abrahamic theism isn't an aspect of Daoist/Buddhist practice.

 

And on top of that,...many Buddhists proselytize the same delusion,...for example:

Thích Nhất Hạnh and his books Living Buddha, Living Christ, or Jesus and Buddha as Brothers, which earns him $millions in support from Christians who want to fuse their theism with Buddhism.

 

IMO,...neither Lao Tzu or Buddha would have had no tolerance for Jesus, or his god.

 

"Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth. To do so is to place intermediaries between yourself and source, and to make yourself a beggar who looks outside for a treasure that is hidden inside his own breast ...the world's religions serve only to strengthen attachments to false concepts such as self and other, life and death, heaven and earth, and so on. Those who become entangled in these false ideas are prevented from perceiving the Integral Oneness." Lao Tzu

[Marblehead]

So one has to be able to love oneself.

I have never had a problem with that part of it. I just have a hard time loving someone I don't like.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, as a Taoist we should accept that everything and everyone has a place within the totality of Tao. We always get in trouble when we start making value judgements. Who said it? "What is is what is."

[Apech]

"Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds..."

 

...why the unnecessary adjective 'unconditional' ...?

[Marblehead]

Good point Cat. No, I haven't managed it (either?).

[Marblehead]

...why the unnecessary adjective 'unconditional' ...?

Because you are still supposed to love your dog even when it is pissing on your leg.

[Apech]

Because you are still supposed to love your dog even when it is pissing on your leg.

 

That's my point ... it's just love ... you don't need to say 'unconditional' ... if you do then its not love at all just a temporary liking or something.

[Apech]

I think once we tap the love energy then we will be on a roll and it will be all 'the drinks are on me!' time at the love saloon.

 

Meanwhile back at the ranch, I am having more luck with Carl Rogers standard which is "Unconditional Postive Regard"..

 

this is less of an achievement, in terms of the heart expansion , but a good step on the way, methinks.

 

 

What is it that stops us tapping into the love energy?

[三江源]

What is it that stops us tapping into the love energy?

 

 

This is the thing isnt it. There is no logical reason not to love everybody.

[Marblehead]

I love the way you repeat yourself.

Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

There is no logical reason not to love everybody.

Oh, I have a few logical reasons.

[Apech]

This is the thing isnt it. There is no logical reason not to love everybody.

 

A star to every wandering bark, whose worth's unknown though its height be taken ...

[Marblehead]

I'm on Highway 69 and went right past La La Land.

[Apech]

iz yu sniffin on a alien flower and gazin upward

 

u b wearin a silk cravat

 

we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars ...

[Marblehead]

we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars ...

Via different cause and effects.

[林愛偉]

So many interesting replies.

 

Perhaps :

 

When seeing living beings, do not see that for what they act like, what they think they are and what you think they are.

See them by looking through those facades they live by. See them without their obstructions, views. You would be looking at them as though you are seeing their true face. We can also say, look at a person as though you are seeing their "higher-self", loving self.

 

 

i want to be able to love my "enemies" and friends equally. i can say that i do, but i don't feel like it comes from within. i believe that my annoyance and avoidance of undesirable people is just hatred under a new name, and i don't like it.

 

Does anyone have any advice/books/links that might help me?

 

this could turn into a debate about whether i need to or not, but i know i don't -need- to. i want to. i see other people that feel love for everyone and everything and i don't feel it. i don't see the point in striving to help others other than for my own emotional gratification. i feel like accumulating merit is just a point-system to give us a false reason to feel good about ourselves. Please, help me understand the possible error of these thoughts and bring me to a greater appreciation of humanity.