Scientists declare consciousness not exclusive to humans

[hydrogen]

The monkey is satisfied with being a monkey. Man wants to be god. Fail!

 

The other day, I watched a documentary about money in wild. I felt so lucky to be human once knowing the hardship the monkey going through.

 

Is monkey really satisfied with being a monkey? I don't know. I don't know what extra wisdom you have to draw the conclusion for monkey.

 

Man wants to be god? again, is this your own ambition?

[Marblehead]

The other day, I watched a documentary about money in wild. I felt so lucky to be human once knowing the hardship the monkey going through.

Indeed, it is a hard life. But apparently they do not have the knowledge necessary to make things better for themselves.

 

Is monkey really satisfied with being a monkey? I don't know. I don't know what extra wisdom you have to draw the conclusion for monkey.

I don't know either. But if you have no ability to invision a better way of life wouldn't it be fair to say that, out of necessity, they are satisfied with their state? Sure, they have to beware of the tiger and lion but that's about as far as it goes based on my observations. That is, other than eating, etc., the things monkeys do.

 

Man wants to be god? again, is this your own ambition?

NO, but I am the center of my universe. That's close enough for me.

[hydrogen]

I don't know either. But if you have no ability to invision a better way of life wouldn't it be fair to say that, out of necessity, they are satisfied with their state? Sure, they have to beware of the tiger and lion but that's about as far as it goes based on my observations. That is, other than eating, etc., the things monkeys do.

 

I highly recommend you watch a film about monkey life.

 

It's a constant struggle for survival in the pack on top of food shortage. The males compete for dominance. The lost party can choose to be screwed in the butt literally or leave tha pack. The new leader of the pack would sysmatically kill every younsters in the pack. The females have to feed their cubs and defend them against being eaten by other monkeys.

 

It's not a big loving family as you might have assumed.

[三江源]

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Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Marblehead]

I highly recommend you watch a film about monkey life.

 

It's a constant struggle for survival in the pack on top of food shortage. The males compete for dominance. The lost party can choose to be screwed in the butt literally or leave tha pack. The new leader of the pack would sysmatically kill every younsters in the pack. The females have to feed their cubs and defend them against being eaten by other monkeys.

 

It's not a big loving family as you might have assumed.

All that sounds pretty human to me.

 

Yes, I do watch nature programs. I also watch nature in the rough in my own front and back yards. I have seen male frogs pushing each other as if they were sumo wrestlers.

 

Nature is what it is. And Tao has no preferrences. Look what happened to the dinosaurs. In fact, something like 97 % of all species that have ever lived on this planet have gone extinct.

 

And I have NEVER suggested that the life of a monkey is a garden party. But it is the life monkeys live. To place our value judgements on it is totally wrong.

[Marblehead]

Where are the big loving families?

 

We keep making assumptions about where they are!

Some can be seen in Latino communities. More can be seen in Jewish communities. It can also be seen in elephant communities (the herd ruled by the matriarch, not the bulls who have been evicted from the herd).

 

Many beautiful examples of big, loving families. No, Taobums still has a way to go.

[三江源]

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Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Marblehead]

ha, marbles. I know latino and jewish families.

 

Hence I asked the question.

Just checking to see if I'm awake, are you?

[Stosh]

Maybe loving families are a thing of the past, maybe they never were what the are hyped to be, or maybe they are in flux . Ive never seen one though that fits the description for long.

But it seems they could potentially be out there.

Somewhere.

[Marblehead]

Well, we sure got this thread off topic, didn't we? Hehehe.

[Stosh]

Maybe its just moving in a more pertinent direction than monkey-mind.

[silent thunder]

I so love this.

 

Really reminds me that no matter which road you take, they all lead back to source.

 

I love the striking similarities between modern physics and ancient eastern cosmology.

[narveen]

I highly recommend you watch a film about monkey life.

 

do you have the youtube link or is it a dvd? what is the name of this film?

 

It's a constant struggle for survival in the pack on top of food shortage. The males compete for dominance. The lost party can choose to be screwed in the butt literally or leave tha pack. The new leader of the pack would sysmatically kill every younsters in the pack. The females have to feed their cubs and defend them against being eaten by other monkeys.

 

It's not a big loving family as you might have assumed.

 

it's still a struggle for us monkeys - even in america.

 

you don't consider it cannibalism only because the goat is not your brother, the cow is not your father, and sheep with four legs are not people. they are farmed and slaughtered by the tens of millions every single day sight unseen.

 

docummentaries on war, poverty, disease, political oppression, human trafficking, prostitution, chronicle living conditions a lot worse than that for monkeys in the wild.

 

at least, the real monkeys have an excuse. god didn't give them the ability to think things through in this life and a soul to skip out of the misery into the next.

[narveen]

That is a fair question. I don't pretend to know the scientifically correct answer. However, I have my opinions and understandings.

 

opinions are all that apes have on this shore; understandings are what dao masters have on the other shore.

 

opinions can change, understandings are cast in stone.

 

so, let's discuss your opinions.

 

I cannot speak to your word "soul" at this time because you have not defined what you believe "soul" to be.

 

ok

 

However, granted, the monkey is less evolved than is man. The other apes (yes, we are of the ape family tree) are more evolved than are monkey but still less evolved than man.

 

you are positing evolution as a truth but it is actually a theory.

 

if you believe in God, then you are his creation. If you believe Darwin, then you are an ape.

 

What we can talk about is brain capacities and capabilities as well as the capacity for language. These two are most important regarding the evolution of man. Oh, yeah, walking upright too, which freed our hands for doing other things.

 

you are comparing ape-man and say ape-chimpanzee, and each has a different brain that creates human consciousness and chimp consciousness respectively?

 

So if we compare man with the other apes and then with the monkeys we will easily see why there are the differences.

 

what differences? speaking English instead of grunting? moving on two legs instead of four? are these differences in intellectual capacity and behavior pattern sufficient to establish class division?

 

i think the disparity in intelligence between the smartest people on the planet and the folks who cut our lawns could be far greater than that between dumb people and chimps; yet, we are all equal. why marginalize the chimps?

 

could the real excuse for division between us and other apes is because they don’t look like us?

 

Nature has provided all with what is needed for survival and propogation. Man has done extremely well; too well, in my personal opinion. But the other apes are doing well and they would be doing much better if man would stop killing them needlessly. The monkeys are likewise doing very well. Actually, they are doing better than the apes because man has found few reasons to kill them.

 

So no, the monkeys don't need all the attributes that man has because nature has provided the instincts for it to survive and propogate. The monkey is satisfied with being a monkey. Man wants to be god. Fail!

 

if you could put aside your belief in Darwin for a moment and not be an ape, i would like to offer my theory for your consideration. how about it? folks would think you crazy if you were to discuss the dao with a monkey. but i am optimistic because i see no divide.

[silent thunder]

opinions are all that apes have on this shore; understandings are what dao masters have on the other shore.

 

opinions can change, understandings are cast in stone.

 

so, let's discuss your opinions.

 

 

ok

 

 

you are positing evolution as a truth but it is actually a theory.

 

if you believe in God, then you are his creation. If you believe Darwin, then you are an ape.

 

 

you are comparing ape-man and say ape-chimpanzee, and each has a different brain that creates human consciousness and chimp consciousness respectively?

 

 

what differences? speaking English instead of grunting? moving on two legs instead of four? are these differences in intellectual capacity and behavior pattern sufficient to establish class division?

 

i think the disparity in intelligence between the smartest people on the planet and the folks who cut our lawns could be far greater than that between dumb people and chimps; yet, we are all equal. why marginalize the chimps?

 

could the real excuse for division between us and other apes is because they don’t look like us?

 

 

if you could put aside your belief in Darwin for a moment and not be an ape, i would like to offer my theory for your consideration. how about it? folks would think you crazy if you were to discuss the dao with a monkey. but i am optimistic because i see no divide.

just curious... are you and sree related?

[narveen]

just curious... are you and sree related?

 

no. stosh said songstan is related to sree and rene.

[Marblehead]

opinions can change, understandings are cast in stone.

Not true. Even understandings change when new knowledge is attained.

 

you are positing evolution as a truth but it is actually a theory.

No, it is a fact. It has been observed many times while observing animals with very short life spans. Most ofter used is the fruit fly.

 

if you believe in God, then you are his creation. If you believe Darwin, then you are an ape.

And you too are evolved from the ape. Most of what Darwin observed and recorded has been substaniated many times over.

 

you are comparing ape-man and say ape-chimpanzee, and each has a different brain that creates human consciousness and chimp consciousness respectively?

Absolutely.

 

what differences? speaking English instead of grunting? moving on two legs instead of four? are these differences in intellectual capacity and behavior pattern sufficient to establish class division?

Yes they are. Any language, not only English. The ability to pass knowledge from the older generation to the younger. And yes, moving ontwo legs free the arms and hands for other tasks while standing upright or even while moving.

 

i think the disparity in intelligence between the smartest people on the planet and the folks who cut our lawns could be far greater than that between dumb people and chimps; yet, we are all equal. why marginalize the chimps?

Well, the plantation owner and the slave who cuts the grass are of the same species; man and chimp are different species. Pretty big difference.

 

could the real excuse for division between us and other apes is because they don’t look like us?

That would play a part in it, yes, but it's not the only reason and difference.

 

if you could put aside your belief in Darwin for a moment and not be an ape, i would like to offer my theory for your consideration. how about it? folks would think you crazy if you were to discuss the dao with a monkey. but i am optimistic because i see no divide.

Well, it seems that we two apes are already having a discussion. I tried the Christian Creation myth and it didn't work for me. And during my searching years I found none of the myths of all the various religions to hold any value.

 

But sure, I am always open for a discussion with another ape. We apes with the capacity for language do a pretty good job at discussion our thoughts and opinions with our fellow apes.

 

So sure, offer you theory but please!, please!, please! do not tell me that man was transported here from some other planet in a flying saucer.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

THis was really good! Thank you!!

[narveen]

Not true. Even understandings change when new knowledge is attained.

 

understandings are doctrinal commands that cannot change but can only be discarded and replaced by a new understanding.

 

an example of an understanding is the knowledge, currently held, of human existence: we are apes, inhabiting earth, a round planet circling the sun in the solar system.

 

do you see this understanding changing when you are presented new knowledge? mindset cannot change. in a free society culture evolves as people die and a new generation hardwired with a new understanding populate society. to modernize china, mao hurried this process with his brutal cultural revolution. in ancient china, emperors didn’t wait to realize their visions. heads were chopped off en masse to remove obstruction to a better china.

 

No, it is a fact. It has been observed many times while observing animals with very short life spans. Most ofter used is the fruit fly.

 

this is called extrapolation. a conclusion based on speculation and not fact. it is like concluding that if you can walk 3 miles an hour, you will arrive in shanghai in time for Christmas if you start today from florida. i am not factoring in the possibilities of you eaten up by sharks, blown off-course by typhoons and that you may not be able to walk across the pacific ocean. scientists are that way - presumptious. science writers, out to titillate, are worse.

 

And you too are evolved from the ape. Most of what Darwin observed and recorded has been substaniated many times over.

 

and you are god’s creation whether you like it or not. there are enough eye-witnesses to miracles at lourdes attesting to the power of the virgin mary.

 

i understand your disillusionment with christianity (or whatever), but why trade one faith for another (science) and not just chuck all religious beliefs?

 

Absolutely.

 

you believe that chimp have a different consciousness? what is the nature of that difference? let’s make this clearer and compare the consciousness of a newly-born baby chimp and a newly-born human chimp. can you tell any difference based on your observation of their behavorial responses?

 

Yes they are. Any language, not only English. The ability to pass knowledge from the older generation to the younger. And yes, moving ontwo legs free the arms and hands for other tasks while standing upright or even while moving.

 

would you apply your basis (of functional capability) for class division between humans and chimps to class division among humans as well? the social caste system of india is like the classification of animals into separate species. are these not different forms of bigotry?

 

Well, the plantation owner and the slave who cuts the grass are of the same species; man and chimp are different species. Pretty big difference.

 

the specie difference you see is based on arbitrary, biased and unjust criteria. the establishment of this method of differentiation had no input from chimps. walking on two legs and use of language may be significant to you but not to chimps. are these capabilities not excuses for the practice of discrimination against chimps?

 

That would play a part in it, yes, but it's not the only reason and difference.

 

are your reasons self-serving? just because there are reasons for the practice of racism don’t mean they are right. in this case, it is not another human that is being discriminated against. it is another animal.

 

Well, it seems that we two apes are already having a discussion. I tried the Christian Creation myth and it didn't work for me. And during my searching years I found none of the myths of all the various religions to hold any value.

 

but you found the myths of science and you embraced them hook, line and sinker.

 

But sure, I am always open for a discussion with another ape. We apes with the capacity for language do a pretty good job at discussion our thoughts and opinions with our fellow apes.

 

i am not another ape just as you are not another christian. what happened to freedom of religion? doesn’t each have the right to choose his faith? you choose to be an ape just as another choose to be a creature of god. proselytism, which is the act to convert others to your belief, serves to garner support for an ideology. truth requires no support.

 

So sure, offer you theory but please!, please!, please! do not tell me that man was transported here from some other planet in a flying saucer.

 

the story of man as told by science is fantastic enough even if we remove that part about an alien with superpowers from planet krypton.

 

i can’t show you my theory until you can put yours aside, suspend your belief in science, and take an unbiased look at what i have to show you. there is no room for two theories in one mind. only one operating system can run a computer at a time.

 

get it?

[Marblehead]

I'm going to have to break this down into parts and respond to each.

 

I'll be back.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead said:

Not true. Even understandings change when new knowledge is attained.

 

　

　

You said:

understandings are doctrinal commands that cannot change but can only be discarded and replaced by a new understanding.

an example of an understanding is the knowledge, currently held, of human existence: we are apes, inhabiting earth, a round planet circling the sun in the solar system.

 

do you see this understanding changing when you are presented new knowledge? mindset cannot change. in a free society culture evolves as people die and a new generation hardwired with a new understanding populate society. to modernize china, mao hurried this process with his brutal cultural revolution. in ancient china, emperors didn’t wait to realize their visions. heads were chopped off en masse to remove obstruction to a better china.

 

　

　

Marblehead responds:

Either you have a different understanding of the word "understanding" or you need to do a little reading of learning theories.

Understanding are not dogma. Only religions have dogma.

 

Understandings are flexible and constantly subject to change as new knowledge is attained. Dogma is rigid as it negates new knowledge with its existing dogma.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead said:

No, it is a fact. It has been observed many times while observing animals with very short life spans. Most ofter used is the fruit fly.

 

　

You said:

this is called extrapolation. a conclusion based on speculation and not fact. it is like concluding that if you can walk 3 miles an hour, you will arrive in shanghai in time for Christmas if you start today from florida. i am not factoring in the possibilities of you eaten up by sharks, blown off-course by typhoons and that you may not be able to walk across the pacific ocean. scientists are that way - presumptious. science writers, out to titillate, are worse.

 

　

Marblehead responds:

No, it is called "Scientific Method". Scientific fact is a result of numerous tests under identical conditions with identical results being produced every time.

 

I don't celebrate Christmas. I am an Atheist, remember?

[Marblehead]

Marblehead said:

And you too are evolved from the ape. Most of what Darwin observed and recorded has been substaniated many times over.

 

 

 

You said:

and you are god’s creation whether you like it or not. there are enough eye-witnesses to miracles at lourdes attesting to the power of the virgin mary.

 

i understand your disillusionment with christianity (or whatever), but why trade one faith for another (science) and not just chuck all religious beliefs?

 

 

 

Marblehead responds:

Which god am I a creation of? You went and got superstitious on me. I don't believe in gods and devils and ghosts and aliens or any of the other imaginary essences. I don't believe in miracles. I don't believe a virgin could conceive and give birth. Either Joseph and Mary had sex or Mary was fooling around.

 

My disillusionment? You have to be joking!

 

And Science is not a faith; it is not a religion; it is a method for attaining the truth.

 

Yes, I chucked all religions a long time ago. I have been an Atheist for over thirty-five years.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead said:

Absolutely.

 

 

 

You said:

you believe that chimp have a different consciousness? what is the nature of that difference? let’s make this clearer and compare the consciousness of a newly-born baby chimp and a newly-born human chimp. can you tell any difference based on your observation of their behavorial responses?

 

 

 

Marblehead responds:

No, consciousness is consciousness. The depth of that consciousness is the only factor.

 

There is no significant difference between a new-born chimp and a new-born human. And if I remember correctly initial conscious development of chimp is faster than a human but the human overtakes the chimp at around age three or four.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead said:

Yes they are. Any language, not only English. The ability to pass knowledge from the older generation to the younger. And yes, moving ontwo legs free the arms and hands for other tasks while standing upright or even while moving.

 

 

 

You said:

would you apply your basis (of functional capability) for class division between humans and chimps to class division among humans as well? the social caste system of india is like the classification of animals into separate species. are these not different forms of bigotry?

 

 

 

Marblehead responds:

Yes, what you speak of would be racial bigotry. I do not ascribe to such. Remember, we are talking about different species, not different families or blood lines.