Scientists declare consciousness not exclusive to humans

[narveen]

you are not quite clear here. we are like two surgeons going into the brain with our scalpels and i don’t want to cut your optic nerve. please affirm the following:

 

I don't know if I am up to it, but I don't expect to have my head explode. This portion of your elaboration, where there is reality , but we can't really know it, has already been considered a valid point.

 

what are you saying here? which portion of my elaboration? we can’t really know what? and what has been considered a valid point? (seems like you are using too few words and i need to know precisely what you are pointing out.)

 

The thing is , that we extrapolate enough about the functions of reality (the stuff that relates to us) that the two parallel .

 

what extrapolation? what are the two that parallel?

cite me one case of extrapolation. what did i say specifically in my post that caused you to make that connection with other people’s extrapolations? i don’t extrapolate. i disdain darwinian monkey business and theorectical physics. extrapolations in spiritual matters are rife on account of quacks - they don’t use the scientific method and most have not even gone to school.

 

If that wasn't the case, our existance would be rendered a nonsensical mess.

 

how so?

 

Our unreal conceptry DOES in fact function, which is the proof and product of our mental gyrations.

 

conceptry? is this even a word? i couldn’t google this. do you mean our unrealistic “conceptualization” does function as proven by our mental spinning of fantasies?

 

such as? cite one fantasy.

 

i know you want to be polite but sometimes you need to point finger so we know exactly what and who. vague generalization to avoid targetting the problem so we don't offend anyone has caused the NSA data storage mess. we are not allowed to profile and discriminate anybody because it is not nice, so the only way is to screen every baby and grandma going through security and capture every bit of digital traffic in the whole planet just to seize one culprit by the neck and thrown him in the slammer.

Edited July 5, 2013 by narveen

[Marblehead]

“I don't want to believe. I want to know.” - Carl Sagan

[Stosh]

_{what are you saying here? which portion of my elaboration? we can’t really know what? and what has been considered a valid point? (seems like you are using too few words and i need to know precisely what you are pointing out.)}

 

_{You appeared to question whether I was ready to handle the perspective you were about to discuss. I indicated I was not afraid of what you potentially might say , but I didnt know that I would accept it now ( potentially I could accept it later )}

_{The valid point is that we cant know what is true beyond our senses , they filter the data , and so we can never directly understand the Tao,, but at the same time we can make extrapolations which provide a framework for our interaction with the world.}

 

_{an example of an extrapolation ?.. well this is a definition of the way I am meaning it}

_{ex·trap·o·late ( k-str p -l t ). v. ex·trap·o·lat·ed, ex·trap·o·lat·ing, ex·trap·o·lates. v.tr. 1 . To infer or estimate by extending or projecting known information}

_{and one could extapolate that since I put my keys on the table earlier , that they are still there even when I cant see them. Babies sometimes get upset when parent leave their sight because they think the parents are gone , it takes time for them to learn otherwise. Thats the mechanism of the peek-a-boo game. Parent not-seen anxiety increaces, parent reappears, anxiety drops and the kid laughs.}

 

The two things that are parralell are the worlds of what we sense-extrapolate and the world such as it really is.

What is the color of an object? ummm ..a daisy for example, a bee might see it into the ultraviolet- patterns we dont even recognize are there to be seen! , a mantis shrimp may see a crazy show of polarized light , a human may see it as yellow.

The true color of the thing can never be known for fact and directly , it will always be filtered by the sensing mechanism.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

The thing is , that we extrapolate enough about the functions of reality (the stuff that relates to us) that the two parallel

If that wasn't the case, our existance would be rendered a nonsensical mess.

how so?

 

If the rules that we came up with didnt reflect the circumstances accurately then we would be operating under incorrect assumptions and fail at whatever we were attempting.. For instance , if we were wrong about gravity then our satellites would fall to the ground or fly off into space.

If hallucinogens were not material compounds,, dosing someone with an opiate might ,or might not do, anything at all... but they do , so its considered a "real" effect even though its subjectively experienced.

 

The word 'conceptry' is a word I casually created to describe a thing for which I couldnt find an appropriate-satisfactory descriptive for in english. Like when I hyphenate words to arrive at a specific connotation.

I feel its self explanatory and Ive seen other people adopt the term so I consider it validated (as self explanatory) .Thats how word come to be in dictionaries.. words do not come from dictionaries.

Im willing to clarify if my meanings are garbled.

[narveen]

Okay, so you don't spend your entire day thinking about gravity and the round earth. Neither do I. But they are facts. They must not be ignored in our planning of things that will be effected by them.

 

they may be facts to you, but they are only concepts to me. you are not conscious of those facts because they are there like computer programs constantly running unseen in the background of your mind.

 

as concepts, they are useful tools for practical life and i put those tools away in the tool shed. once the job is done, those programs shut down. because they are facts to you, you wear them around your neck 24/7. even in the garden, when you are fooling around with your flowers replanting them, you know you are digging a planetary ball and sticking your plants into its surface; and gravity is always there making it hard for you to get back up on your feet from all that kneeling on the ground.

 

don't forget the other facts like time and space - more programs running constantly in the background. and evolution too...good lord.

Edited July 5, 2013 by narveen

[Apech]

who knows? why fudge an answer? this is the same thing i tell to a jehovah witness when i am asked who created the universe. science or religion, it's the same stuff: different ways of spinning myths to keep our heads in a dark place.

 

Newton didn't fudge an answer he produced a mathematics which worked and predicted among other things planetary orbits.

[narveen]

Newton didn't fudge an answer he produced a mathematics which worked and predicted among other things planetary orbits.

 

i have no problems with the mathematics that define the phenomenon.

things fall and they fall in a certain way.

based on measurements of how things fall, the math is developed.

we don't need to know why things fall to do the math.

we only need to know how things behave.

that's all.

 

why things fall is a mystery.

inventing a cause - bodies attract each other - and call it gravity is fudging an answer.

in this way, science is competing with religion in providing explanations for inexplicable phenomena.

neither is telling the truth.

Edited July 5, 2013 by narveen

[Marblehead]

they may be facts to you, but they are only concepts to me. you are not conscious of those facts because they are there like computer programs constantly running unseen in the background of your mind.

You are only using different words in order to argue with me. Won't work.

[Marblehead]

why things fall is a mystery.

inventing a cause - bodies attract each other - and call it gravity is fudging an answer.

in this way, science is competing with religion in providing explanations for inexplicable phenomena.

neither is telling the truth.

It's not a mystery. Why things don't fall (why the universe is still expanding at an increasing rate) is a mystery.

 

What matter is it what tag one puts on it as long as it defines what is being spoken to? Call it Suckingness. The Suckingness of an object will be proportional to its mass.

 

Science is not competing with religion. Religion presents it myths and Science presents it facts. Sometimes they overlap; most times not.

[doc benway]

what is your proof of this common consciousness? The reason why folks consider themselves distinct , is threefold you can't operate my muscles, you can't read my mind, and you can't register my sensory input. The feeling of compassion folks may dwell on is not extended to the consciousness of another..nonshared experience is the proof of nonshared existance

 

Proof?

 

Who are you?

Who does operate your muscles, if not me?

Who digests your food?

Who balances your homeostasis?

Who out there is not 'me'?

 

If you can answer that, you have your proof.

If not... you have work to do.

 

 

 

do you mean we have all already moved into the cloud?

 

forgive my mirth, but i am curious to learn from you how you figured that out. i hope it's not another darwinian imagination.

 

No need to apologize. I'm pleased that you're entertained, it makes me happy.

I have no idea how I figured it out; in fact, I never figured anything out.

It wasn't like that, it was more like opening my eyes for the first time - no rhyme or reason.

Just perspective...

I was just looking out at a field one day while my wife was driving and there it was.

It has nothing to do with belief, it's simple certainty through direct experience.

[Stosh]

Proof?

 

Who are you?

Who does operate your muscles, if not me?

Who digests your food?

Who balances your homeostasis?

Who out there is not 'me'?

 

If you can answer that, you have your proof.

If not... you have work to do.

 

..nonshared experience is the proof of nonshared existance.

You havent overcome this point I made , and so the work is yours to still do,

not mine.

[narveen]

It's not a mystery. Why things don't fall (why the universe is still expanding at an increasing rate) is a mystery.

 

What matter is it what tag one puts on it as long as it defines what is being spoken to? Call it Suckingness. The Suckingness of an object will be proportional to its mass.

 

Science is not competing with religion. Religion presents it myths and Science presents it facts. Sometimes they overlap; most times not.

 

ok buddy. stick with your science. i won't disturb you.

[narveen]

Thank you for your clarifications. they do shine a light into the architecture of your mind. let’s see if i was able to figure out the algorithms in your software.

 

i will respond again to your earlier post (No: 73 ). please let me know if i got it wrong.

 

I don't know if I am up to it, but I don't expect to have my head explode. This portion of your elaboration, where there is reality , but we can't really know it, has already been considered a valid point.

 

“my elaboration” you refer to here is what i said: your perception (of yourself falling off the building) and the onlookers’ perception (of your mess on the sidewalk) may be real but not true. and i followed up with the question of “what is truth and what is reality?”.

 

and your “valid point” was meant to say to me: “what you elaborated is no big deal. everybody knows that for a fact that there are two realities: the true one beyond the reach of our senses, and the perceived one that we extrapolate from the real deal".

 

sorry buddy. your valid point has nothing to do with my “truth and reality”.

 

to me reality is what we perceive; for instance, the words on this screen, not just the visual of the text but also the meaning they convey. that’s it. there is nothing lurking beyond our senses that we are extrapolating from. i do not believe in a “true” reality. there is only one reality: the perceived one.

 

The thing is , that we extrapolate enough about the functions of reality (the stuff that relates to us) that the two parallel .

 

you are assuming that there is a true reality, “the world such as it really is”, and the perceived reality is sense-extrapolated and detected through and filtered by the sense mechanism.

 

if you believe that everything in your reality is an extrapolation of the true reality beyond the senses where the eternal tao, your true self and god-knows-what else is hidden, then you have joined all those people looking for the light.

 

If that wasn't the case, our existance would be rendered a nonsensical mess.

 

in your view, our perceived reality parallels the true reality, the one that has that intrinsic order. and because we are sufficiently accurate in our assumptions (extrapolations) of how it works, our scientific knowledge (about gravity, drugs, etc) does work.

 

 

did i diagnosed your mindset right?

 

Our unreal conceptry DOES in fact function, which is the proof and product of our mental gyrations.

 

ok. i will include your word in my vocabulary. our conceptry functions in a wacky way (our messed up world), unfortunately. if you are right and our extrapolation is close enough to the real reality, the eternal tao must be somewhat as wacky too. if so, then we are all f*cked.

Edited July 6, 2013 by narveen

[narveen]

Proof?

 

yep. empirical, existential proof. no spiritual mumbo jumbo and scientific monkey business.

 

Who are you?

 

narveen; individual; human being; a member of the ape specie; inhabitant of planet earth; creation of almighty god.

 

let's see if you can cut through all that.

 

Who does operate your muscles, if not me?

 

me. i operate my muscles through my body. who are you? identify yourself.

 

Who digests your food?

 

gut digests my food. gut is the nickname of my alimentary canal.

 

Who balances your homeostasis?

 

enough of these questions, already. i never liked biology.

 

Who out there is not 'me'?

 

everybody else in the NSA data storage bank. i wish i am snowdon minus the whistle-blowing. i would go into PRISM to locate you.

 

If you can answer that, you have your proof.

If not... you have work to do.

 

 

i answered all that. no proof of common consciousness found.

 

No need to apologize. I'm pleased that you're entertained, it makes me happy.

I have no idea how I figured it out; in fact, I never figured anything out.

It wasn't like that, it was more like opening my eyes for the first time - no rhyme or reason.

Just perspective...

I was just looking out at a field one day while my wife was driving and there it was.

It has nothing to do with belief, it's simple certainty through direct experience.

 

divine revelation? instantaneous enlightenment?

 

i am curious and willing to listen to what you have to say about what you found there that day while looking at a field.

i am putting aside all my spiritual beliefs and scientific knowledge so nothing blocks me from listening to you.

you have my undivided attention.

talk to me, please.

Edited July 6, 2013 by narveen

[Stosh]

Yes narv, you have read my point as I mean it

But I don't know why you think we are screwed..

Why do you think that? Tbere IS no screwed or unscrewed.

???

[Stosh]

I watching a heron eating baby frogs.

To me, the little froggies are screwed.

The froggies fear what is happening to them.

The heron is eating breakfast.

 

If screwedness exists, it is just a matter of

perception about what is really happening.

It is ephemeral.

To be the author of the events that we experience

Is what we do

We have powers in both the physical word

And the mental

To get a handle on these is our means ,

To the ends, of having the experiences we wish for

In the stage set before us.

[narveen]

Yes narv, you have read my point as I mean it But I don't know why you think we are screwed.. Why do you think that? Tbere IS no screwed or unscrewed. ???

 

look at songtsan's life. someone commented that it was unusual. that someone has not been on the other side of the tracks. america's underbelly is full of people with lives like that.

 

you don't think songtsan's life reflects a screwed up world? one has to be dead to not resent coming into this world to go through what songtsan had to endure. it's a wonder he came this far. if i were god, i would have taken him back the moment he was born.

 

it is easy to say there is no screwed or unscrewed until you get screwed. if i have the power, i would send you to that songtsan hell so you get some depth in your spiritual journey.

[narveen]

I watching a heron eating baby frogs. To me, the little froggies are screwed. The froggies fear what is happening to them. The heron is eating breakfast. If screwedness exists, it is just a matter of perception about what is really happening. It is ephemeral. To be the author of the events that we experience Is what we do We have powers in both the physical word And the mental To get a handle on these is our means , To the ends, of having the experiences we wish for In the stage set before us.

 

no heart, stosh. you can't tread the spiritual path without a heart. even the tin man knew he needed a heart.

 

i read about the froggies in trains bound for the death camp in auschwitz. 1.5 million in all were gassed.another 500,000 not killed in the gas chambers died of starvation, forced labor, infectious diseases, individual executions, and medical experiments. if screwedness exists, it is just a matter of perception about what really happened.

 

do you work for a living stosh? do you have a family? wife and kids? i don't know. you are beyond the reach of my senses and my extrapolation is hard to make out. are you an inmate on shutter island, a serial killer in shawshank prison, or a friggin' computer program rigged up for conversations on the internet like dragon?

[silent thunder]

What bird is screeching?
Fools talk while Sages listen.
Whose voice is that now?

The same thing applies
to the incessant flapping
of wings in the mind.

[doc benway]

yep. empirical, existential proof. no spiritual mumbo jumbo and scientific monkey business.

 

 

narveen; individual; human being; a member of the ape specie; inhabitant of planet earth; creation of almighty god.

 

let's see if you can cut through all that.

 

 

me. i operate my muscles through my body. who are you? identify yourself.

 

 

gut digests my food. gut is the nickname of my alimentary canal.

 

 

enough of these questions, already. i never liked biology.

 

 

everybody else in the NSA data storage bank. i wish i am snowdon minus the whistle-blowing. i would go into PRISM to locate you.

 

 

i answered all that. no proof of common consciousness found.

 

 

divine revelation? instantaneous enlightenment?

 

i am curious and willing to listen to what you have to say about what you found there that day while looking at a field.

i am putting aside all my spiritual beliefs and scientific knowledge so nothing blocks me from listening to you.

you have my undivided attention.

talk to me, please.

You have answered all of my questions.

What more is there to say?

 

I don't know how to use words to share experience with you.

Sorry...

I think once the experience is there, then words can be shared.

[Stosh]

Narveen,

You demonstrate the pitfalls of your theism quite clearly.

You, in your confused mess of a heart ,would have deprived songstan his life!

You wish me and my family ill!

You resent life saying it is f*****up!

Really dude, you should start listening to what folks here are saying.

It doesn't have to be me.

But it sounds like you are in a really negative place spiritually

because your desire for compassion is twisted around into a

Snarling defensive posture. First you need to realise that there

Are no gods since the god of compassion you 'envision' created a world

Where herons not only eat frogs, but absolutely must eat frogs!

And so...cannot be a god of compassion..or does not exist.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Stosh

[narveen]

What bird is screeching?

Fools talk while Sages listen.

Whose voice is that now?

 

The same thing applies

to the incessant flapping

of wings in the mind.

 

is this shortwave or long?

UHF or VHF?

hullooooooooooooooooooooooo....anyone there?

[narveen]

You have answered all of my questions.

What more is there to say?

 

I don't know how to use words to share experience with you.

Sorry...

I think once the experience is there, then words can be shared.

 

ok, man. i can't share experience with a housefly either.

the window is open.

have a good day.

[Marblehead]

Well, seems this thread went to hell.

 

Consciousness (and self-awareness) are very susceptible to illusions and delusions.

 

It is hard to see ourself as we 'really' are.

[narveen]

Narveen,

You demonstrate the pitfalls of your theism quite clearly.

 

how so? please point out what i have posted to demonstrate them.

 

You, in your confused mess of a heart ,would have deprived songstan his life!

 

i would deprive him of a raw deal.

which kid would want to be born with a mom who has to raise him on welfare and cannot find a good dad for him?

what was your childhood like? was your dad a layabout shit? did you have to grow yourself up sleeping under 18 wheeler trucks?

 

You wish me and my family ill!

 

did no such thing.

 

You resent life saying it is f*****up!

 

my life is not f**cked up.

everybody else’s life is all f**cked up.

but then some like to be f**cked up and don’t see it as such.

as you said, it’s all a matter of perception.

 

here i am, like prince arjuna in his war chariot on a hill surveying the battlefield of life below him. what a messed-up world. songtsan is the only one who has owned up to a f**cked up life.

the rest won’t say.

 

Really dude, you should start listening to what folks here are saying.

It doesn't have to be me.

 

why should i listen to what folks are saying here? do you know any of them?

songtsan is the only one here admitting to having a mug shot.

god knows what others have hidden in their closets.

you sound like an ok guy only because you are easy to extrapolate and i don’t detect strange smells.

but as sun tzu said, one never knows.

 

But it sounds like you are in a really negative place spiritually

because your desire for compassion is twisted around into a

Snarling defensive posture.

 

defensive? what makes you say that?

tentative and cautions, perhaps.

not defensive.

i am like a lead deer in the forest.

tentative, alert, always aware while the rest graze mindlessly.

 

First you need to realise that there

Are no gods since the god of compassion you 'envision' created a world

Where herons not only eat frogs, but absolutely must eat frogs!

And so...cannot be a god of compassion..or does not exist.

 

heron must absolutely eat frogs?

and so every misery in life has to be the way it is?

what happened to the right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness?