Wayfarer64 Posted April 6, 2007 Sorry Sean, First time I posted this on the wrong forum somehow?! So anyway- It has come up on other threads that what some see as natural may be abhorant to others. Some of us see it all as part of the Tao of being on this planet, healthy or unhealthy. Some think that what we, as humans often do - is not always "natural" and therefore not "Taoist" in its own nature as it were... I for one say that all that happens is by definition part of the Tao and part of nature. As Freeform has also stated. For me though, there is a big difference between healthy and unhealthy manifestations of our energies. I do not make moral judgements about many issues. They are after-all just my preferences. I state my preferences all the time, as you may have read.... Still, for me - one's intent is just as important as one's activity. This is because we are often ignorant of many aspects of what we are doing and can only just do the best we can with what we have at hand, be it knowledge, money, energy, whatever... This is at least a part of why raising ones' consciousness has so much importance to many of us here. We want to do better with our time and energy as we have the time and energy to do so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yen Hui Posted April 7, 2007 (edited) It has come up on other threads that what some see as natural may be abhorant to others. Some of us see it all as part of the Tao of being on this planet, healthy or unhealthy. Some think that what we, as humans often do - is not always "natural" and therefore not "Taoist" in its own nature as it were... I for one say that all that happens is by definition part of the Tao and part of nature. As Freeform has also stated. For me though, there is a big difference between healthy and unhealthy manifestations of our energies. I do not make moral judgements about many issues. They are after-all just my preferences. I state my preferences all the time, as you may have read.... Still, for me - one's intent is just as important as one's activity. This is because we are often ignorant of many aspects of what we are doing and can only just do the best we can with what we have at hand, be it knowledge, money, energy, whatever... This is at least a part of why raising ones' consciousness has so much importance to many of us here. We want to do better with our time and energy as we have the time and energy to do so... Hi there Pat ~ Hey, I don't know what to say to the above. I do know it has kept me wrapt in thought for a good many times today. There is no denying the importance of what you ask; you have asked more-or-less for something that defies the full reach of our conventional wisdom. Tao is the primordial root; the centre of all that exists within the 64 energy fields (hexagrams). According to the I Ching, Tao is law, order, and predictability. That is the basis of the I Ching: Tao is the governing law of the macro and microcosmic universe. It is the Great Way. But does that mean that every-thing in the world is "natural" and necessarily in harmony with the Tao? Does it mean human mentality never deviates from the Tao? From the path of Inner Truth? Clearly not! Then is deviation "natural"? No, not according to the ancients, at least. The Taoist canon makes it clear that ancient society enjoyed, once upon a time, a state of original simplicity and innocence, and that deviations slowly and very gradually crept in down through the flow of time. So, deviations are therefore 'unnatural' to human nature and society, in the beginning. This is quite clearly intimated in the Tao Te Ching, I feel. Now, with all honesty and due respect to freeform, who has made a few good observations, I find it difficult to reconcile his position or view regarding the application of the Way within human society. As you could probably imagine, I'm well armed with a host of canonical quotes to make a reasonable case for it, but it's beginning to appear to me that a good number of Tao bums residing at this online sanctuary are not too keen for that, so I won't bore them to death with that. But! I'll leave you with at least two quotes for the journey :- 01 - "To indulge the perversities of an individual, thereby increasing troubles throughout the land, is unacceptable to natural reason." ( From the Huai Nan Masters, in Taoist Classics, Volume 1, p. 316 ) 02 - "Therefore, when black and yellow blood flow, it is a sign that in this unnatural contest both primal powers suffer injury." ( Hex 2 - Line 6 @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h2.html ) I must completely agree with you on the question or nature of 'intent'. I trust the wayfaring has been keeping you busy treading the sometimes turbulent waters of the Tao. It was cool to read about your Hung Gar days. May the life of the Tao flow always through your veins ~ your bro' in spirit ~ Yen Hui Edited April 7, 2007 by Yen Hui Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrum Posted April 7, 2007 (edited) I'm well armed with a host of canonical quotes to make a reasonable case for it, but it's beginning to appear to me that a good number of Tao bums residing at this online sanctuary are not too keen for that, :raises hand: I have/do appreiciate/d your qoutes. 02 - "Therefore, when black and yellow blood flow, it is a sign that in this unnatural contest both primal powers suffer injury." ( Hex 2 - Line 6 @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h2.html ) At once point while doing push hands w/ a gung brother a few years ago I was feeling very competitive and wanted to win; Sei Gung noted at that point for me to go look at my color in the mirror, he observed yellow, my brother I was practicing w/ noted it as well... I was indeed yellow, it was shocking to see... and I realized this about "unnatural contest"... and what it does to my state of being. Thanks for sharing the Taoist cannon. Spectrum Edited April 7, 2007 by Spectrum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted April 7, 2007 Thank you Yen Hui - The question is very important to me at this time, (on many levels), because I have been working/screaming/sweating and pulling for environmental causes over the past thirty years and now when there is a ground-swell of awareness for those issues, I am concerned that it may in fact be too late. It may be that the balance of nature has been tipped into a very dangerous new paradigm... That it was "natural" for us to have done this as a species bespeaks of our lowest " nature" not our highest, most enlightened "nature"... So the various levels of being ourselves have manifested as a predictable lowest common level. I see this also when it comes to our "natural" consumerism for instance - it is a dog-eat-dog reality, that may be natural, but is not of our better natures. As seekers and if I may-wayfarers- I think and believe that we are obliged to take note of what is important in where our lives' energies and drives may or will not lead us. I make the distinction between may/will here because it is often easier to see what surely will not happen as a result of our doings than what may in fact happen. It seems easier to negate outcomes than to predict them. Cause and result can be narrowed down but seldom controled -at least this has been so in my life. Finding our highest level of possible consciousness is a worthwhile goal. Often I for one am distracted with the need to pay rent and stay warm etc...Our various levels of attainment have little value for most of our fellow human beings. That too is only natural... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatherpaul Posted April 7, 2007 Sorry Sean, First time I posted this on the wrong forum somehow?! So anyway- It has come up on other threads that what some see as natural may be abhorant to others. Some of us see it all as part of the Tao of being on this planet, healthy or unhealthy. Some think that what we, as humans often do - is not always "natural" and therefore not "Taoist" in its own nature as it were... the tao is prior to thought I for one say that all that happens is by definition part of the Tao and part of nature. As Freeform has also stated. For me though, there is a big difference between healthy and unhealthy manifestations of our energies. (there is vast emptiness, no healthy/unhealthy) I do not make moral judgements about many issues. They are after-all just my preferences. I state my preferences all the time, as you may have read.... Still, for me - one's intent is just as important as one's activity. This is because we are often ignorant of many aspects of what we are doing and can only just do the best we can with what we have at hand, be it knowledge, money, energy, whatever... This is at least a part of why raising ones' consciousness has so much importance to many of us here. We want to do better with our time and energy as we have the time and energy to do so... good thoughts, it is indeed a serious matter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
