proof of qigong

[exorcist_1699]

Although the practice of qigong is different from scientific experiments, some proof for whether the one you are practising is correct or not is always necessary . I think , there are at least 2 simple criteria :

 

1) talking about its benefits to your health ,it must be more effective than sports , otherwise, why not doing something more funny?

 

2) After having practised it for more than one year , it must make you forever

free of any diseases.

 

A qigong , no matter in what form you are being taught , is doubtful to be a correct one if it can't fulfil such simple and clear requests .

[GrandTrinity]

lol

[sunshine]

>>1) talking about its benefits to your health ,it must be more effective than sports , otherwise, why not doing something more funny?<<

 

Judging from the point of fun is hardly a proper criterium! Nevertheless my teacher says: True practice is serious business. If you are not willing to do it serious you better go jogging...

 

>>after having practised it for more than one year , it must make you forever free of any diseases. <<

 

This were just true if one were to claim that every Qigong is meant to have benefits for ones health! Further: how will you ever proove that someone practiced it correctly always???

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[Wayfarer64]

abadaabadaabada- (I am left speachless here)

 

This thread has me scratching my head in wonder and aaaaaaaamazment.

 

Is this some sort of new approach to anti-qigong propaganda ?

How did all of the many galabaluchian types of qigung get thrown together?

abadaabadaabada

 

1 years practice = total great health forever?! The Dalai lama catches colds, my Hung gar master gets a cough... etc etc... Disease has its own agenda, spiritual & martial practices do not make one infallable to the worlds' many dangers.

 

YIKES!!

[goldisheavy]

I don't know about qigong, but with regard to mind, the idea is to allow the mind to move beyond ordinary concepts. People hate disease and yearn for health. This is how the mind has no peace, since it has something that must definitely be avoided and something that must definitely be sought. If you can see that in disease there is nothing that's actually sick and that in health there is nothing that's actually healthy, that disease and health are just arbitrary designations, this will loosen up your mind.

 

That means you can enjoy being sick. Even if you have a fatal disease it can be fun and blissful. Even if your eyeball is falling out of its socket, that is OK. But only if you can let go of your image -- what you think you should look like and what you think you should feel like.

 

This has nothing to do with chasing health. This transcends the idea of health altogether.

 

Now, if you chase health, you are essentially trying to keep a certain fairly concrete mental image of what you should look and feel like, manifested. This will never meet with 100% success. Why not? Simply because all things change and nothing is stable in terms of concrete detail.

 

So if you understand something, you can see right from the start seeking perfect health is doomed to fail. That's also why immortality cannot be found in any concrete way, like in some specific body. And Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu said as much. Someone who has no idea what health is or what disease is might appear healthy, but it's not that this person is protecting something. It's the opposite. They are relaxed because they have nothing to protect and no state of health to chase or guard. This relaxed mind allows them to be healthy sometimes, but that's not a goal. As soon as health becomes a goal, then disease sets in. It's similar to when you lock up your treasure, thieves appear. Same idea. Real health cannot be called "health". It's not possible to understand what it is in terms of explanations or definitions. Try it.

[exorcist_1699]

What I preach here , in fact , is nothing strange . On the contrary, it is quite a traditional , orthodox view of the Chinese taoists.

 

Of course, here, orthodox not in a sense that it is any authority established by the government and has a large group of followers... conversely , it refers to the distant ,secret voice from the deep mountains which the taoist practitioners transferred in every epoch .

 

 

Although Dao De Jing does not have any words about "qi" , the concept is later added into the taoist system by other followers , and , it already becomes the cornerstone of the system . So, qigong , of course ,is one of expressions of taoism in the modern world regardless its confusing definition and variety in the West .

Edited April 9, 2007 by exorcist_1699

[Ryan McCoole]

I’d have to agree with goldisheavy here, our Yi, or intent, is the guiding force of the energy of our body, mind and spirit. W/o the proper intent, we could not carry on the alchemical transformations in Qi-gong, or guide our ‘small mind’ to the ‘illuminating Oneness’ so mentioned in Zen, where qi-gong isn’t necessarily a factor.

 

The real Intent that, imo, I see in the Tao Te Ching, Hua Hu Ching, and the many other texts we have on our bookshelves is this: in everything that we do, we must constantly give up the barriers that separate ourselves from realizing the WE ARE the Dao. Not the barriers that separate us from the Dao, because that’s impossible, but the barriers that our own blocked minds or Yi create when it is misguided.

 

Qi-gong works for me, and for years I thought it was because I was gradually refining my body to the utmost heights of the upper echelons of the Eternal health, longevity and path of sages that only the best can achieve. Then... one day it hit me: the more I struggled to harnesss/keep my Jing, hold a position, or try to fix myself in one state of being, the more I began to loose the very state I was tryting to keep.

 

It was when I let my Yi flow freely, uncontrived, and gently relaxed into whatever life brings, that my practice got better and better. Ironically, the more I gave up, the more I realized I already had before I moved an inch.

 

Immediately, of course, my small mind began to say “GOOD! HOLD ONTO THIS EXPERIENCE!”, but I remembered to breathe from my Dan Tien, relax, and let it flow.

 

So goldisheavy has a good point, the moment we try to hang onto something, even if it is the best QI-gong, energy filling experience of our lives, the more we limit ourselves. Obviously this is a lot easier said that done. But if we were created, or came into being effortlessly, don’t we owe it to the Dao, to ourselves (one in the same here) to guide our Yi in this regard?

 

Just some thoughts ,

 

 

-Ryan McCoole-

Edited April 10, 2007 by Ryan McCoole

[goldisheavy]

Intent is very mysterious. I have pondered it for a long time and had many ideas about it.

 

But after I asked myself "where does intent begin and where does it end?" I realized I cannot understand intent in terms of a description or framing it with some concepts.

 

Conventionally I say "I intend to move my hand" as I move my hand. But when did I begin? And when I am done moving? What happened to my intent? Clearly it's not gone! If intent is ever-present, how can it have a beginning? Does it merely change? But if it changes, how do I know what it used to be before? It's not obvious at all. Poetically speaking I can say that intent is like a mysterious river. Or it's like a mysterious ocean. Where does my intent end and the intent of another person begins? It's not obvious. Moving your hand changes the totality of all sense-fields and not just a tiny part of some sense-field. That is very profound. In essence you don't move your hand at all. You alter the totality of the sense-fields. Amazing!

 

To say that I don't move my hand is a fancy exaggeration. But to say I do move my hand is a deceptive attribution.

 

If you really set your mind to it, you can do anything. You can eat fire and fly and breathe water. You may not be able to live in the same realm as those beings who fundamentally are closed to experiencing such things due to their mental habit energy (this is also mysterious... it's not some mechanic habit). To do this you may need to forget everything you ever knew about what is real or what is possible and what is impossible. This can be very hard emotionally, if you are still in love with the way things appear to you right now, even if you can already understand the possibility of limitless expression of life through reason and intuition.

 

Attaining something too perfect can at times derail the mindset. It might come into conflict with what you believe is possible to validly experience. I know this first hand when I learned to see very clearly and then immediately gave up that ability because it came into conflict with what I believe about the world and about myself.

 

All magic is fun and it can provoke wisdom -- so I won't denigrate it. But let's not forget that the most important wisdom is that which transcends all notions. Without that wisdom a person will really be miserable no matter what skills and relative advantages they temporarily experience. That's why Chuang Tzu said -- "if you have no use, you have no grief" Think about it.

 

If you think subtle energy of Chi and Jing is profound...that's nothing. Try moving your hand. Do you understand how it moves? Do you understand how it doesn't move? Because I don't.

 

I'm just having fun.

[exorcist_1699]

"free of any diseases" does not necessarily mean you catch no cough or cold, it only states that because you had practised qigong for a year in a correct way , you already deposited a dose of omnipotent medicine ("qi") in your body , so, whenever it is needed, you just release it and let it cure your illness.

 

Besides, the taoist masters view aging as some kind of disease , ie, it is not something fatal , but curable.

 

Western medicine can only retard aging , or slow down the movement of the biological clock built-in human beings, it is taoist qigong, so early in 2,000 years ago, claimed that it could stop or even reverse the clock's movement towards a "doomed" future..

Edited April 10, 2007 by exorcist_1699

[fatherpaul]

"free of any diseases" does not necessarily mean you catch no cough or cold, it only states that because you had practised qigong for a year in a correct way , you already deposited a dose of omnipotent medicine ("qi") in your body , so, whenever it is needed, you just release it and let it cure your illness.

 

Besides, the taoist masters view aging as some kind of disease , ie, it is not something fatal , but curable.

 

Western medicine can only retard aging , or slow down the movement of the biological clock built-in human beings, it is taoist qigong, so early in 2,000 years ago, claimed that it could stop or even reverse the clock's movement towards a "doomed" future..

 

this is doable, but i see no one doing it

[bd2]

Edited April 11, 2007 by bd2

[thelerner]

I agree w/ Gold. The great ones are the masters of accepting what is. No particular power beyond that. They just do what they're doing. They live and die like the rest of us, but they live unafraid and in the moment.

 

 

Michael

[thaddeus]

If I can speak for exorcist (no pun intended), qigong practice is *supposed* to confer great health, vitality and youthfulness. I understand everyone's rationalizations of growing old, getting sick and dying. What he's saying is that qigong practice is supposed to fix all that. Otherwise, why practice it all. The literature states qigong is supposed to cure all diseases. The oral tradition states it's supposed to keep you young, turn grey hair black, etc. etc. If it doesn't do that, then it's certainly a serious waste of time. The joke is on all the qigong gurus getting old, getting sick and dying.

T

[fatherpaul]

If I can speak for exorcist (no pun intended), qigong practice is *supposed* to confer great health, vitality and youthfulness. I understand everyone's rationalizations of growing old, getting sick and dying. What he's saying is that qigong practice is supposed to fix all that. Otherwise, why practice it all. The literature states qigong is supposed to cure all diseases. The oral tradition states it's supposed to keep you young, turn grey hair black, etc. etc. If it doesn't do that, then it's certainly a serious waste of time. The joke is on all the qigong gurus getting old, getting sick and dying.

T

 

now that deserves a standing ovation

*snap* *snap*

[DaoWaDiddy]

It's all part of the ongoing aim: "Live forever or die trying."

 

Which if you reparse it leads to some interesting ambiguities.

 

The other day I was talking to a friend about something that I believe is Native American - although I don't remember if I read this or saw it in a movie or what. Two warriors are about to go to battle and one looks to the other and says "Today is a good day to die." And the other nods.

 

And when I said this to my friend a distinct wave of letting go - some level of release - went through my body.

 

Meanwhile, I continue to do qigong.

 

Forever yours,

Charlie

[mYTHmAKER]

oops!

Edited April 12, 2007 by mYTHmAKER

[mYTHmAKER]

If I can speak for exorcist (no pun intended), qigong practice is *supposed* to confer great health, vitality and youthfulness. I understand everyone's rationalizations of growing old, getting sick and dying. What he's saying is that qigong practice is supposed to fix all that. Otherwise, why practice it all. The literature states qigong is supposed to cure all diseases. The oral tradition states it's supposed to keep you young, turn grey hair black, etc. etc. If it doesn't do that, then it's certainly a serious waste of time. The joke is on all the qigong gurus getting old, getting sick and dying.

T

 

The joke is on all of those who believe they aren't going to get sick and or die,

(I speak from experience - I have been reincarnated many many times.)

or that there is a practice or something that will keep them from the natural course of things.

This is the natural occurance in this world.

Of course they say there is some Baba in the Hymalayas who is 500 years old

but no one has seen him. Hmm makes you wonder.

Qi gong ( I include tai chi and the other internal arts) will enhance your chances of being happier i.e healthier until you get sick and die.

Now if you smoke and drink, eat poorly and do all other sorts of no no's what can you expect.

Qi gong isn't going to save you.

[goldisheavy]

Besides, the taoist masters view aging as some kind of disease , ie, it is not something fatal , but curable.

 

Certainly not any real Taoist masters like Laozi or Zhuangzi.

 

There have been various cults seeking concrete immortality (meaning immortality in a particular form that lasts forever), but arguably, those guys are quite deluded.

 

Just because it is possible to display amazing feats of mental power that is akin to magic (and in a way it is magic, because ultimately it has no explanation), doesn't mean one can find a form that doesn't change.

 

Change is necessary for cognition to operate. Form includes its own demise in its own nature. It's not a disease. It is natural and proper and all good Taoists follow it. In fact, in Wen Tzu and such, when Taoism is applied to proper government, it is said that the proper thing to do is to retreat after accomplishing your task. That's the embrace of death. After living your life you retreat, if you know what's good for you. A person who knows what's good for them goes to sleep after a day awake.

 

Ok, the word "death" is extremist and is not really correct. Nothing truly dies, just like nothing is truly born. But that doesn't mean that aging is a disease. Aging, as change, is natural.

 

Take an old person. What is old about them? All the things you see are new developments. When a wrinkle appears, it's not an old wrinkle. It's a new wrinkle. When a gray hair appears, it's not an old hair, it's a new hair. All signs of aging are new developments. So what is old about an old guy?

 

I tell you what! It's only his name that's gotten old. Everything else is not old at all. So the disease is to confuse the name with a person. A person is always new. Never old. The name gets old. Or does it? Maybe every time we hear the "same" name it's not exactly the same? Then maybe even the name doesn't get old.

[exorcist_1699]

Most religions in this world claim that they have proof so as to justify their right of existence . To some religions , it is miracles.....however, in case of Taoism ( it is a Trinity of religion , philosophy and medicine or something even beyond it , not strictly a religion ) , the proof is very clear and real that people can do it themselves .

 

However, is "qi" so powerful that it can reverse aging , cure all diseases (besides lunatic ones) or make an old man look as in his 30's ? The answer is really depending on what level of "qi" he can mobilize : the more " delicate" it is , the more powerful it will be .

 

An electrician who owns a workshop at the street corner and repairs electrical fan or TV for you deals with things related to " physics" ;Einstein also deals with things we call " physics" ; but we all know how immense the difference between them...

 

Whether a cough is cured or what a face we look without a good sleep overnight is so simple and plain to any adult , nobody can cheat you .

[thaddeus]

edited..will rewrite later..