Wirathu: The Face Of Buddhist Terrorism

[baiqi]

When I look at Burma, I see a possible future for some European countries too... Anywhere you have a big Islamic minority, you have trouble. I don't know until what point it will go. I'm rather afraid of an explosion of violence.

 

One of the hardest things for people to understand is the difference between the ideology (Islam) and the people following it (the muslims). I'm afraid we could have lots of "collateral damages".

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm not sure, but I think that the monk is against certain muslims who practice violence... not all of them. Am I correct?

[Vmarco]

 

The philosophy behind his teachings:

 

“You can be full of kindness and love, but you cannot sleep next to a mad dog,” Wirathu said, referring to Muslims. “If we are weak,” he said, “our land will become Muslim.”

 

 

"If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures....in fact, one of the precepts of the Bodhisattva vows is to take strong countermeasures when the situation calls for it. If a Bodhisattva doesn't take strong countermeasures when the situation requires, then that constitutes an infraction of one of the vows." HH Dalai Lama

Edited June 27, 2013 by Vmarco

[Jetsun]

 

 

 

"If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures....in fact, one of the precepts of the Bodhisattva vows is to take strong countermeasures when the situation calls for it. If a Bodhisattva doesn't take strong countermeasures when the situation requires, then that constitutes an infraction of one of the vows." HH Dalai Lama

Usually when HH talks about countermeasures it is in reference to mind training, so if your mind is full of anger you generate love, if it is full of attachment you meditate on emptiness, lust : disgust, etc these are the Bodhisattva countermeasures they take a vow for to protect their own mind, not for picking up a gun to take a countermeasure of violence.

[Vmarco]

As I wrote on TTB:

 

Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

 

I vote that this thread, a pro-Muslim view, go to the pit. Overall, from stories I've read, the Muslim minority of Myanmar, who by the way, own the majority of the Country's private wealth, and treat Buddhists like scum infidels, are quite oppressive towards Buddhists in daily life.

 

This latest clash was fueled by two incidents,...first involved a Buddhist woman attempting to sell a gold hair piece, worth an equivalent of $200 in gold. The creepy Muslim merchant would only pay $100,...and as the woman attempted to counter for $120, the merchanct sneakily damaged the piece, and in traditional Muslim form, offered $50. The police were called, and the Muslim got caught in their unconscionable act,...which riled the Muslims to initiate incident number 2,...that of 4 Muslim males attacking, and then setting fire to a Buddhist monk. Next thing you know,...the world is condemning Buddhists for retaliating.

 

The way I see it,...Muslims invaded Myanmar in the 14th Century,...and it's now time to purge the Country of this disease. I personally like to see the religion of the pedophile Prophet removed from all of Asia,...and along with Judeao-Christianity, obliterated from the world.

 

Today.....

 

As I've tried to dig deeper into this story than the Western media puts out, and as I said previously, there does indeed appear to be a biased Western agenda...not only because Buddhists monks watch Buddhists women being lured by wealthy Muslems and subsequently have a higher birthing rate than Buddhists,...thus adding more Islamic youth to the population, but over and over I’ve read of $millions in Saudi money earmarked for the conversion of Myanmar Buddhists to Islam.

Now,...just moments ago, after going through 7 pages of search engine entries,...it appears that all the original stories of the Muslim atrocities leading up to this situation have been removed.

This whole thing smells like Muslim money to me.

[Vmarco]

Usually when HH talks about countermeasures it is in reference to mind training, so if your mind is full of anger you generate love, if it is full of attachment you meditate on emptiness, lust : disgust, etc these are the Bodhisattva countermeasures they take a vow for to protect their own mind, not for picking up a gun to take a countermeasure of violence.

Actually,...that Dalai Lama quote above was in reference to US Seals taking out Bin Laden.

[silas]

 

I vote that this thread, a pro-Muslim view, go to the pit. Overall, from stories I've read, the Muslim minority of Myanmar, who by the way, own the majority of the Country's private wealth, and treat Buddhists like scum infidels, are quite oppressive towards Buddhists in daily life.

 

 

This thread is NOT pro-Muslim. Nor is it pro Buddhist. It tries to understand the theology of Wirathu. If it goes to the pit, it is like sweeping something unpleasant under the rug and ignoring it, where it can fester and grow.

 

I don't know why the pit works the way it does, but some important discussion can get lost. Perhaps find a way to save interesting posts and pit the rest?

Edited June 27, 2013 by silas

[silent thunder]

This thread is NOT pro-Muslim. Nor is it pro Buddhist. It tries to understand the theology of Wirathu. If it goes to the pit, it is like sweeping something unpleasant under the rug and ignoring it, where it can fester and grow.

 

I don't know why the pit works the way it does, but some important discussion can get lost. Perhaps find a way to save interesting posts and pit the rest?

 

I agree.

 

Don't bury a topic that is bringing beneficial discussion about a difficult topic among high thinking, spiritual people.

That's kind of the whole point of a forum. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems the pit is for 'irrelevant or off topic/non spiritual' matters. This very thing strikes to the core of many matters we all struggle with daily. How to deal with hostility, prejudice and ignorance.

 

Very good discussion in my opinion.

[RongzomFan]

The media is biased by Abrahamic religions. They will never understand Buddhism.

 

I used to be an evangelical saved Christian for about 2 months, so I understand their mindset. I used to be even anti-Buddhism.

[RongzomFan]

This thread is NOT pro-Muslim. Nor is it pro Buddhist. It tries to understand the theology of Wirathu.

 

 

Its the theology of Islam, and its history. Look into the Islamic burning and decapitation at Nalanda, Odantapuri. Look at sharia law in Britain. Look at Al Jazeera's piece on the Dalai Lama a few years ago.

Edited June 27, 2013 by alwayson

[Songtsan]

The problem with a set system of ethics is that because they are set, and yet the world changes, so the movement of the world can destroy the foundation on which they are based. Very much like the ocean wears stones smooth over time. It seems that the Buddhist ethical system is ripe for other religions to take advantage of. I dont know how well it will deal with things in the long run. I mean, nonviolence worked for Ghandi, so it is true that it can work, but as soon as 'the enemy' (i.e. any group of people who care only about power, control, and use any means necessary, regardless of what mask they are hiding behind) see you using a system that has worked in the past, they study and refine ways to undermine that system too. That is what the governments of the world are doing nowadays - here in USA, over in Europe, and many other places. They have learned from their mistakes, and have learned how to fight back against nonviolence through such means as propaganda, re-structuring laws, devious political moves, blackmail, and so forth. If the Buddhists don't learn new ways to deal with the situation, flexible ways, reeds that bend in the wind without breaking ways, then they will continue to suffer in places where they are under attack. I am not suggesting that I have an idea that would work, only that there is a learning process that must be undergone as these new ways are found. I do not judge Wirasu for what he is doing - he is a person too, and should be given respect for his beliefs, as should anyone. There is a true Buddha called 'Angry Buddha' I was not joking in my first post. All Buddhas are Buddhas, whether they are angry or not. It is an illusion that there is an anti-Buddha, even an anti-Buddha has Buddha nature, which is why I said the phrase 'anti-Buddha Buddha' - still a Buddha! - Buddha nature is in everyone, including the infidels and the infidel-makers. People try to divide things into Buddha nature and not-Buddha nature. I say that divisions are delusions, and that everything is joined on some hidden level, with everything else.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Songtsan

[RongzomFan]

What Buddha Nature are you talking about?

 

Are you talking about the Buddha Nature of the sutras i.e. Tathagatagarbha Sutras?

 

Are you talking about the Buddha Nature of the tantras i.e. Mahamudra?

[eye_of_the_storm]

I found the same thing V.... very strange...

Edited June 27, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Songtsan]

What Buddha Nature are you talking about?

 

Are you talking about the Buddha Nature of the sutras i.e. Tathagatagarbha Sutras?

 

Are you talking about the Buddha Nature of the tantras i.e. Mahamudra?

 

I have not yet learned to differentiate between the two - if there is a difference at all. Tathagatagarbha Sutras state Buddha nature as "Buddha-Matrix, Buddha-Embryo, Buddha-Essence, lit. "the womb of the thus-come-one" within all sentient creatures. The Buddha reveals how inside each person's being there exists a great Buddhic "treasure that is eternal and unchanging". This is no less than the indwelling Buddha himself."

 

Mahamudra states that Buddha nature is "spontaneously present, not produced by causes, Self-arisen and self-free, clarity-emptiness, fixation-free." Luminous clarity, bliss-emptiness, self-awareness, etc.

 

I have always seen bliss-emptiness as beyond mind, bliss without seed object. Pure awareness. I always assumed that Tathagatagarbha sutras referred to this exact same thing, i.e. indwelling Buddha = self-existent awareness beyond mind.

[RongzomFan]

Buddha Nature of the tantras i.e. Mahamudra refers to the nature of the mind.

 

Buddha Nature of the sutras i.e. Tathagatagarbha Sutras is some weird convoluted doctrine.

[Songtsan]

I try not to get too caught up in the theories of others long dead lately. I haven't read much traditional literature in the past year at all, I am simply reading stuff written by people currently alive, as I believe that wisdom treasures that exist in live people are much more accurate than dead wisdom on papers. Those people then thought differently about the world - it is why I come to places like this - to learn from my living Buddha brother and sisters.

[silas]

I try not to get too caught up in the theories of others long dead lately. I haven't read much traditional literature in the past year at all, I am simply reading stuff written by people currently alive, as I believe that wisdom treasures that exist in live people are much more accurate than dead wisdom on papers. Those people then thought differently about the world - it is why I come to places like this - to learn from my living Buddha brother and sisters.

 

My thinking is different - if there are fundamental truths, then they may have been expressed in the past. The question is how to find them and understand them. For example, most religion today has become so syncretic, they all seem to teach the same thing; only their rituals are distinctive. Yet the problems of today seem intractable with modern thinking.

 

You may ask though, if the past was so great, how did we get to the state of things today? Well, sometimes the teachings of the past (the systems, the understandings) got lost somehow. In Buddhist world, there must be thousands of sutras, treatises, manuals, etc. Can you really know all of them? And if you do know all of them, they can conflict, so which one do you follow?

 

There are Buddhist temples in the United States that teach syncretic or New Age Buddhism. What they do is limit their teachings to those that accord with Christianity. Although Buddhism is said to be "god-less", the overmind or supermind maps to God and Buddha to Jesus. But if such Buddhists wanted to be Christians, they would be Christians. Why be second-rate when the first is the best? If Christianity or New Age Buddhism do not speak of Wirathu, then something else is needed.

 

I say, there are lost systems, lost understandings in the past, that still have something to say to the modern world, but one must seek to find them. Maybe, there is some form of Buddhism in the long past that would have helped Wirathu to live in peace with Muslims and not risk their way of life.

Edited June 27, 2013 by silas

[Songtsan]

My thinking is different - if there are fundamental truths, then they may have been expressed in the past. The question is how to find them and understand them. For example, most religion today has become so syncretic, they all seem to teach the same thing; only their rituals are distinctive. Yet the problems of today seem intractable with modern thinking.

 

I dont disagree with you. I know that the truths were found then, but I also know that the way they expressed those truths was for the people of that time, not this one. I am not saying I do not read the classics, only that I am now taking a long break, while I seek answers from living teachers - I spent 2.5 years in prison, reading about 150 books Buddhism alone, and many Vedanta, Krishna, new age, etc etc. books - I am leaving the books for a while, and conversing with the many living books around me.

[Jetsun]

There are only a handful of objectively true timeless sutras and religious texts, maybe Heart Sutra and a few others, most of the rest are potentially outdated and dead by the time they are published

[silent thunder]

The conditions of Wirathu's situation seem really extreme. It hurts to contemplate it.

With conditions like those, the choices get bottle-necked pretty quickly.

 

Move, resist, or submit, seem like the main reactions I could take in that situation, none seem pleasant.

 

The Tao of Violence:

If nature follows Tao, then violence is a part of Tao.

All life feeds on other life and even outside the game of 'who is my dinner?' there are a myriad of other types of violence that have their place in the completely natural order. There is a right time for violence. It's just not a pleasant manifestation.

 

Wirathu reminds me of the central character in 'The Compassionate Monk' tale.

 

Briefly paraphrased:

 

Several monks had booked passage on a ship sailing along the coast.

Mid-journey the ship they were on was damaged and boarded by pirates whose reputation was for murdering all the men and children and keeping the women as toys.

 

One monk took violent action and killed every last pirate, saving the rest of the passengers including his brother monks.

 

His brothers were incredibly distraught at his actions and his reply to them was pretty simple.

 

"I showed them compassion. My actions disallowed them to take horrendous karma upon themselves that they are ill equipped to handle. I willingly accept this karma, having the skills I have learned in my studies."

Edited June 27, 2013 by silent thunder

[3bob]

"Every person has a dark side...even if its the size of a grain of sand; when our focus is placed on it, it grows in power as our chi energy feeds into it. The demon grows on milk of chi focus. When the demon gets big enough, it can overtake the angels of holy vows, through its sheer might...The demon dominates the angels, the angels run and hide from the terrible Demon of Hate. This Dark Demon comes to the fore and becomes the 'I' self...its power keeps the other 'I's from coming forward, it consumes the mind mirror, spreading like a cancer, until the angels are now the size of a grain of sand. They are now angel seeds, forced back into pre-germination stage. All selves exist in every wo/man. None of us are free from any demon/angel. All seeds exist in any mind. Don't water the wrong seeds with milk of chi." by Songtsan.

 

My take: When Sat looks this "demon" in the eye the demon perishes... any wo/men, angels, or gods knowing Sat stand firm, fearless and indeed free before the thief described above for such has no power but what it can steal; thus the truth of the saying, "fear not" which is based on a quintessential and deathless spiritual truth itself that is beyond any power of mind manipulation is then in effect...but when or if that is veiled then the saying of, "what you fear shall come upon you" may then come into effect instead. (in the worlds of mind)

 

Jai Sat Guru!

Edited June 27, 2013 by 3bob

[Vmarco]

 

This thread is NOT pro-Muslim. Nor is it pro Buddhist. It tries to understand the theology of Wirathu. If it goes to the pit, it is like sweeping something unpleasant under the rug and ignoring it, where it can fester and grow.

 

I was referencing a post from nearly 3 months ago,...not this thread

Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

 

 

Allow me to repeat my opinion:

 

It was sad reading a few months back about the pro-Muslim Western media bias regarding Myanmar. Overall, from stories I've read at that time, the Muslim minority of Myanmar, who by the way, own the majority of the Country's private wealth, and treat Buddhists like scum infidels, are quite oppressive towards Buddhists in daily life.

 

This latest clash was fueled by two incidents,...first involved a Buddhist woman attempting to sell a gold hair piece, worth an equivalent of $200 in gold. The creepy Muslim merchant would only pay $100,...and as the woman attempted to counter for $120, the merchanct sneakily damaged the piece, and in traditional Muslim form, offered $50. The police were called, and the Muslim got caught in their unconscionable act,...which riled the Muslims to initiate incident number 2,...that of 4 Muslim males attacking, and then setting fire to a Buddhist monk. Next thing you know,...the world is condemning Buddhists for retaliating.

 

The way I see it,...Muslims invaded Myanmar in the 14th Century,...and it's now time to purge the Country of this disease. I personally like to see the religion of the pedophile Prophet removed from all of Asia,...and along with Judeao-Christianity, obliterated from the world.

 

An unbiased media would be highlighting this: that Buddhists monks watch Buddhists women being lured by wealthy Muslems and subsequently have a higher birthing rate than Buddhists,...thus adding more Islamic youth to the population, but over and over I’ve read of $millions in Saudi money earmarked for the conversion of Myanmar Buddhists to Islam.

[Songtsan]

Is it East vs. West again? I hope not.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Songtsan

[RongzomFan]

I personally like to see the religion of the pedophile Prophet removed from all of Asia,...and along with Judeao-Christianity, obliterated from the world.

 

There is a view that Mohammed never existed.

[Vmarco]

 

There is a view that Mohammed never existed.

The Qur'an disagrees.

 

Muslims, for example, unquestioningly accept the Shahada, that is, that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger. To understand the dynamics of that, simply ask a Muslim why he believes in the Qur’an, and he will say, “Because the Qur’an is the infallible words of Allah written by his prophet Muhammad.” If you continue the inquiry and request that he divulge how he knows that Muhammad is Allah’s prophet, the Muslim will, without the slightest pondering, respond that he knows that Muhammad is Allah’s prophet because it says so right in the Qur’an. This is a faith-driven circular reasoning common to all three Abrahamic religions and their hundreds of denominations.

 

I personally think that there was a Muhammad. History is quite clear regarding the roots of the Christian deception, which was firmly grounded by the end of the sixth century. Theodosian laws, for example, condemned all non-Christians, thus promoting ardent persecutions of freethinkers, deists, pantheists, polytheists, pagans, and others whose confiscated property enriched the new church. Then came the barbaric reign of Justinian, which barred anyone outside specific neo-Christian beliefs from civil service, and whose forced baptisms upon Arabs encouraged the way for the establishment of Islam.

 

Muhammad (570–632 CE), the Abrahamic teacher who, prompted by persecutions upon Arabs, such as those continued by Pope Gregory (540–604 CE), the Father of the Dark Ages, invented the Arab version of monotheism. Interestingly, this new religion supplied the pedophile prophet with many attractive wives, the youngest of whom is said to be nine-year-old.