Gaining weight (not too much) for a vegetarian

[niveQ]

I became a vegetarian about a year and a half ago. I used to eat a lot of chicken breast. Now I do not. I am glad I do not. I couldn't and I can't due to guilt. I can survive without it and I am much healthier and energetic.

 

I am 6'1 and about 165 lbs. I used to be 6'1 175 lbs. and I never really attempted to build muscle. I am now trying to build muscle and become more physically powerful. I have had some results in my biceps, but that is it. My weight has remained the same.

 

Is there a diet and/or exercise plan I can follow? I eat very healthy and get a good amount of protein with quinoa, avacados, walnuts and a hempseed protein supplement. I was told that you need to ingest your body weight (in grams) in protein to gain muscle. I definitely do not do that.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, it would be ideal to get to 180 lbs.

 

Any suggestions? I appreciate it greatly. I truly do.

Edited June 28, 2013 by niveQ

[eye_of_the_storm]

Might want to check these channels out

[baiqi]

First of all: Congratulations for your change.

 

I won't be a great help here, I am no expert in nutrition (just the basics...)

 

White Wolf: I looked at the second video, it makes me think that there is something with raw veganism. I have noticed that some high level athletes follow this diet, including some martial artists. Although it seems to be in contradiction with the tenets of TCM.

[nine tailed fox]

i am also a vegetarian but from birth lol

 

actually i have never even seen meat in real life

 

chicken breast, interesting name

 

 

btw i am also kind of underweight

 

i would also love to know how to gain weight

[Songtsan]

I became a vegetarian about a year and a half ago. I used to eat a lot of chicken breast. Now I do not. I am glad I do not. I couldn't and I can't due to guilt. I can survive without it and I am much healthier and energetic.

 

I am 6'1 and about 165 lbs. I used to be 6'1 175 lbs. and I never really attempted to build muscle. I am now trying to build muscle and become more physically powerful. I have had some results in my biceps, but that is it. My weight has remained the same.

 

Is there a diet and/or exercise plan I can follow? I eat very healthy and get a good amount of protein with quinoa, avacados, walnuts and a hempseed protein supplement. I was told that you need to ingest your body weight (in grams) in protein to gain muscle. I definitely do not do that.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, it would be ideal to get to 180 lbs.

 

Any suggestions? I appreciate it greatly. I truly do.

 

Hmmm...branched chain amino acids + glutamine...do you do powders? I can tell this stuff..but what is your spending limit? and also when do you work out, how many times a week - tell me the program I will tell you the plan...NSCA C.S.C.S., ACSM HFI minor in exercise nutrition, B.S. Exercise Prescription...lots of supplement knowledge...it'll take me some effort to collate the info - so if you want quality, then you must make effort to collate the info on your end. Tell me everything.

 

EDIT: also...there is muscle weight, organ weight, bone weight, fat weight, water weight...blah blah blah etc etc....lean mass (muscle + bone + organ tissue), and then fat mass. What you need to do is create an ideal weight + an ideal % bodyfat...this is da formula

 

2nd edit: Please list all attributes and I will compute. Tell me about height/weight/BMI, etc. etc. I am an exercise scientist. No Joke here.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Songtsan

[Tactile]

Yes I think that adequate protein (+100g) intake is generally recommended building mass. I'm not sure if you're vegan or vegetarian. If the latter, eggs and some high protein milk products would be a good addition for you. BUT, there is still another important factor.. you should be consuming enough calories. If you're active, it's probably best to shoot somewhere around 3500-4000kcal per day. If you're running out of things to eat, a relatively easy way to bulk eat is to use starchy stuff (rice, pasta, potatoes, etc) and combine it with a fat (coconut oil, olive oil, butter, etc.)

[mYTHmAKER]

I became a vegetarian about a year and a half ago. I used to eat a lot of chicken breast. Now I do not. I am glad I do not. I couldn't and I can't due to guilt. I can survive without it and I am much healthier and energetic.

 

I am 6'1 and about 165 lbs. I used to be 6'1 175 lbs. and I never really attempted to build muscle. I am now trying to build muscle and become more physically powerful. I have had some results in my biceps, but that is it. My weight has remained the same.

 

Is there a diet and/or exercise plan I can follow? I eat very healthy and get a good amount of protein with quinoa, avacados, walnuts and a hempseed protein supplement. I was told that you need to ingest your body weight (in grams) in protein to gain muscle. I definitely do not do that.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, it would be ideal to get to 180 lbs.

 

Any suggestions? I appreciate it greatly. I truly do.

You are healthy and energetic. Why is 180 pounds ideal weight?

Ones body adapts to their ideal weight when they eat healthy.

If you go after muscle make sure you remain flexible

[eye_of_the_storm]

These two are both vegan also...

[eye_of_the_storm]

First of all: Congratulations for your change.

 

I won't be a great help here, I am no expert in nutrition (just the basics...)

 

White Wolf: I looked at the second video, it makes me think that there is something with raw veganism. I have noticed that some high level athletes follow this diet, including some martial artists. Although it seems to be in contradiction with the tenets of TCM.

 

 

Maybe not TCM... closer to the Immortal diets I have read though

 

And I don't think any of the above practice internal energy work...

 

I wonder what the potential are of such a diet + qiqong or similar

 

... the guys above are on HIGH Carb... low fat vegan / mostly "raw" and mostly fruits.

 

They say the oils make them feel sluggish

 

+ nuts you buy are old packaged etc... unless you can get fresh // some of the vegan stuff recommends high intake of nuts etc... these guys don't... and they have the athletic performance to back up what they are saying.

 

A number with high carb... cooked (low heat/ steamed)...potatoes/ veges etc in addition to ^

 

no processed "foods"

 

you want stuff with life energy...

 

Edited June 28, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Songtsan]

 

A number with high carb... cooked (low heat/ steamed)...potatoes/ veges etc in addition to ^

 

no processed "foods"

 

you want stuff with life energy...

 

 

YES...low carb, only 10% simple carb to 90% complex, with 40% overall carb calories...thats the best way...eat less sugar = live longer. More protein, more fat (not less), but good fat (ideal MUFA PUFA ratio)...I can plan you a diet that will change your life if you are interested. Want to look like Bruce Lee? I know the way....(assuming genetics match of course, you can't actually look like him)...as soon as I see interest you will have nutrition plan explosion..

[eye_of_the_storm]

YES...low carb, only 10% simple carb to 90% complex, with 40% overall carb calories...thats the best way...eat less sugar = live longer. More protein, more fat (not less), but good fat (ideal MUFA PUFA ratio)...I can plan you a diet that will change your life if you are interested. Want to look like Bruce Lee? I know the way....(assuming genetics match of course, you can't actually look like him)...as soon as I see interest you will have nutrition plan explosion..

 

 

Ahaha I was talking high carb + high natural sugars... low fat as the preferred... as per the athletes above... they are kinda off the beaten track but are getting very good results.

[Songtsan]

Well, there is a system that uses 1x high carb day a week...or every 5 days, but generally, if you eat high carb its not so good - It does all depend on your long term goals..I prefer to live longer than be more muscle bound...I am aiming for 120 yrs or so..You can still be muscly and be 120 yrs but you have to know how to do it right

Edited June 28, 2013 by Songtsan

[liminal_luke]

Songstan,

 

The diet you're describing sounds very similar to "primal" eating a la Mark Sisson of Marks Daily Apple. Low carb, no sugar, no vegtable oils--Im assuming. It can be done vegetarian but generally isn't. Am I on the right track thinking this is the kind of diet you recommend? It's helped me with my own health issues as well as weight loss.

 

Nice to see such an experienced person so willing to help.

 

Liminal

[baiqi]

Maybe not TCM... closer to the Immortal diets I have read though

Yup.

 

 

And I don't think any of the above practice internal energy work...

 

I wonder what the potential are of such a diet + qiqong or similar

Well in France there is Bernard Bordas, who practices Ninjutsu, Zazen, and some Shaolin Qigong.

I can't tell about his "internal" abilities, but he's a good athlete for sure. (he's 52 and can make a split, do lots of acrobatics etc.)

[skydog]

YES...low carb, only 10% simple carb to 90% complex, with 40% overall carb calories...thats the best way...eat less sugar = live longer. More protein, more fat (not less), but good fat (ideal MUFA PUFA ratio)...I can plan you a diet that will change your life if you are interested. Want to look like Bruce Lee? I know the way....(assuming genetics match of course, you can't actually look like him)...as soon as I see interest you will have nutrition plan explosion..

 

Can I have one? Cheers..

[Flolfolil]

i have went from 130 to 145 in like half a year. i just eat a bunch of sugary stuff, fat, and protein and in large portions

[niveQ]

Hmmm...branched chain amino acids + glutamine...do you do powders? I can tell this stuff..but what is your spending limit? and also when do you work out, how many times a week - tell me the program I will tell you the plan...NSCA C.S.C.S., ACSM HFI minor in exercise nutrition, B.S. Exercise Prescription...lots of supplement knowledge...it'll take me some effort to collate the info - so if you want quality, then you must make effort to collate the info on your end. Tell me everything.

 

EDIT: also...there is muscle weight, organ weight, bone weight, fat weight, water weight...blah blah blah etc etc....lean mass (muscle + bone + organ tissue), and then fat mass. What you need to do is create an ideal weight + an ideal % bodyfat...this is da formula

 

2nd edit: Please list all attributes and I will compute. Tell me about height/weight/BMI, etc. etc. I am an exercise scientist. No Joke here.

 

Hmm, I do bicep curls, shoulder press, inclined situps, pushups and the shoulder exercise where youhave dumbells at your sides and you lift them up from your sides.

 

I do 5 sets of 5-7. I do this every two days, sometimes 3 days.

 

I dont know my current fat%. I am no sure what my ideals would be.

 

I would just like to be more explosive. A Bruce Lee build would be ideal.

 

The only powder I ingest is the Hemp Protein powder.

 

My spending limit is not that high currently.

 

EDIT: I just saw your second post. I am very much interested. If someone could make me a diet/exercise plan, I would love to go full force if I can afford it. I am willing to make sacrifices, of course.

I am supremely interested.

Edited June 29, 2013 by niveQ

[Songtsan]

Songstan,

 

The diet you're describing sounds very similar to "primal" eating a la Mark Sisson of Marks Daily Apple. Low carb, no sugar, no vegtable oils--Im assuming. It can be done vegetarian but generally isn't. Am I on the right track thinking this is the kind of diet you recommend? It's helped me with my own health issues as well as weight loss.

 

Nice to see such an experienced person so willing to help.

 

Liminal

 

sort of, but some vegetable oils are OK - its all about the ratios of omega-3 and omega-6, polyunsaturated to monounsaturated fats (PUFA and MUFA)...I try to avoid things with saturated, hydrogenated, transfats, etc. also, fats that have been cooked and changed structure are bad...olive oil is pretty good - of course certain fish oils are almost required for the best health...again - it all depends on how much money you have and willingness to take certain things every day on a set schedule. Some people cant take supplements worth a damn, even if they have the money to spend - I can probably spend about $100-200 a month on a pretty much perfect supplemental program for me - but its beyond what most people would even consider...most people like their meals to have some variety, eye eppeal, etc. I prefer to eat awesomeness in quality vs. quantity and flavor

Edited June 29, 2013 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

Can I have one? Cheers..

 

I think I will just start posting stuff here in the next few days about my experience and recommendations...stay tuned...

[Songtsan]

I will say this tonight, gaining weight requires you to be in a caloric surplus. You cant gain weight if you aren't eating enough obviously...but there are different ways to go about it, depending on how quickly you want to gain the weight. You can have a moderate surplus, gain weight slowly, while keeping the fat down, or you can gain weight more quickly, but gain a certain amount of fat with it, and then you have to slim down after that. The last one is quicker overall - its what most bodybuilders use.

 

The technical theory behind weight gain is that you need an excess of 2500 calories per week (~360 per day) to gain one pound of lean mass per week. This all looks good on paper, but different genetics/metabolisms work differently, so some alterations are usually in order...I'll get to those later.

[liminal_luke]

 

I think I will just start posting stuff here in the next few days about my experience and recommendations...stay tuned...

Thanks Songtsan! I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

 

Liminal

Edited June 29, 2013 by liminal_luke

[niveQ]

I will say this tonight, gaining weight requires you to be in a caloric surplus. You cant gain weight if you aren't eating enough obviously...but there are different ways to go about it, depending on how quickly you want to gain the weight. You can have a moderate surplus, gain weight slowly, while keeping the fat down, or you can gain weight more quickly, but gain a certain amount of fat with it, and then you have to slim down after that. The last one is quicker overall - its what most bodybuilders use.

 

The technical theory behind weight gain is that you need an excess of 2500 calories per week (~360 per day) to gain one pound of lean mass per week. This all looks good on paper, but different genetics/metabolisms work differently, so some alterations are usually in order...I'll get to those later.

Thank you for the help.

 

I prefer to not gain a bunch of weight/fat quickly. I prefer to gradually get a little bigger muscularly (lean muscle) over the course of some months. I just do not know what is realistic.

[Songtsan]

Thank you for the help.

 

I prefer to not gain a bunch of weight/fat quickly. I prefer to gradually get a little bigger muscularly (lean muscle) over the course of some months. I just do not know what is realistic.

 

realistic at slow gain path is between 1/4 lb to 1/2 pound a week, with adequate rest/nutrition/exercise/genetics. As I said, trying to apply scientific methods and theories to something so individual as a unique human being is difficult, so instead, the plan must constantly be tweaked, depending on results...all exercise plans must be periodized (usually every 3 months, but many other plans, including a rotating/cyclical periodization that changes as often as every week)...

 

let's talk about the Rep Max continuum: Rep Max = repetition maximum, the amount of repetitions that one can perform, using ideal form/technique, before failure, where 'failure' = not being able to perform that last rep in good form. So for example, let's say I can do 10 reps, but not 11, that means I just performed a 10RM set, or a 10 rep max set. The rep max you use determines the type of muscle stimulus you get...you say you want power (power is the ability to produce great amount of force in a small period of time...good for sports, martial arts, etc.) The best way to train power is to do Olympic lifts like the power clean, push press, hang cleans, and so on. Also good is plyometrics...these types of exercises stress the joints, so they must be integrated slowly, and learning them is something I cannot teach you as I would have to be in front of you to demonstrate...so if you want to know - seek professional guidance so you dont hurt yourself, although online videos can help. You can train power in your program, but if you want to gain mass first, you can always spend most of your time in the hypertrophy zone.

 

generally the system works like this:

 

 

see this page:

 

http://fitinafatworld.com/tag/repetition-max-continuum/

 

 

-So at an RM of between 1-3 you are training power more than the others, but you are also training strength

-at RM of 2-5 you are being more strength than anything, but also training power significantly

-at and RM of between 5-8 you are training strength more than anything, power is a lot less, but hypertrophy is becoming more.

-at RM of 8-12 you are in hypertrophy zone mainly, which is where the most muscle gain occurs - and thus lean mass gain

 

things above 12 RM are endurance and do not involve as much mass gain - this is where you stay for toning and endurance training - good for things like boxing, kickboxing, etc. once you have reached your ideal muscle mass. You may see slight differences depending on which repmax continuum chart you look at, but it also differs depending on your form (form improves over time), genetics, etc. So look at a few of these charts and you get the idea.

 

Here is something else to keep in mind: The SAID principle...'Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands' which means that your results will depend on the demands you impose on your body...so you will not gain as much power if you dont train power..pretty much common sense...If you want to be able to train your kicking ability...do kicks! Also, weights are great - but if you want to train balance, etc. choose the harder exercises - such as compound exercises vs. single joint exercises. using your own body weight, free weights, cable columns, etc. are much better than using machines - which stabilize for you. You should be doing the stabilization! When you are really tired out and your form is suffering on the less stable exercises - then you can go to the machines, and get some extra gain...you will know when it is time because you are shaky and not well balanced. If you are doing a standing exercise, such as a standing shoulder press - add something to it - maybe stand on one foot, or do a lunge at the same time as you do the shoulder press - combine exercises - make it really difficult - make it so your brain learns new movements.

 

Please review the above link thoroughly. Know the repmax continuum.

 

Next:

 

water weight - gaining weight always involves gaining water weight too. Water weight fluctuates daily. Therefore you cannot really rely on weighing yourself. Sorry. Just the way it is. Over the long run, yes, but don't even bother weighing your self every week - maybe every 2 weeks is ok...but always weigh yourself at the same time, no clothes on, and make sure to drink the same amount of water during these times, and dont eat a lot of food, like carbs, that make you hold extra water weight, unless you eat the same type of food at this time, then its ok.

 

The best way to determine muscle mass gain is to have your percent body fat checked. Best is to have it checked by a professional - someone with good certifications/training...using a skin fold caliper...also there is BIA meters - which many gyms have - it determines your % fat by running a small electric current through your skin and it determines based on resistance what your % body fat is. It is slightly less accurate than skinfold calipers, but still accurate enough - always use it when you have had the same amount of water to drink, as different hydration levels will produce slightly different results. Record your results in a log.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Songtsan

[niveQ]

realistic at slow gain path is between 1/4 lb to 1/2 pound a week, with adequate rest/nutrition/exercise/genetics. As I said, trying to apply scientific methods and theories to something so individual as a unique human being is difficult, so instead, the plan must constantly be tweaked, depending on results...all exercise plans must be periodized (usually every 3 months, but many other plans, including a rotating/cyclical periodization that changes as often as every week)...

 

let's talk about the Rep Max continuum: Rep Max = repetition maximum, the amount of repetitions that one can perform, using ideal form/technique, before failure, where 'failure' = not being able to perform that last rep in good form. So for example, let's say I can do 10 reps, but not 11, that means I just performed a 10RM set, or a 10 rep max set. The rep max you use determines the type of muscle stimulus you get...you say you want power (power is the ability to produce great amount of force in a small period of time...good for sports, martial arts, etc.) The best way to train power is to do Olympic lifts like the power clean, push press, hang cleans, and so on. Also good is plyometrics...these types of exercises stress the joints, so they must be integrated slowly, and learning them is something I cannot teach you as I would have to be in front of you to demonstrate...so if you want to know - seek professional guidance so you dont hurt yourself, although online videos can help. You can train power in your program, but if you want to gain mass first, you can always spend most of your time in the hypertrophy zone.

 

generally the system works like this:

 

 

see this page:

 

http://fitinafatworld.com/tag/repetition-max-continuum/

 

 

-So at an RM of between 1-3 you are training power more than the others, but you are also training strength

-at RM of 2-5 you are being more strength than anything, but also training power significantly

-at and RM of between 5-8 you are training strength more than anything, power is a lot less, but hypertrophy is becoming more.

-at RM of 8-12 you are in hypertrophy zone mainly, which is where the most muscle gain occurs - and thus lean mass gain

 

things above 12 RM are endurance and do not involve as much mass gain - this is where you stay for toning and endurance training - good for things like boxing, kickboxing, etc. once you have reached your ideal muscle mass. You may see slight differences depending on which repmax continuum chart you look at, but it also differs depending on your form (form improves over time), genetics, etc. So look at a few of these charts and you get the idea.

 

Here is something else to keep in mind: The SAID principle...'Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands' which means that your results will depend on the demands you impose on your body...so you will not gain as much power if you dont train power..pretty much common sense...If you want to be able to train your kicking ability...do kicks! Also, weights are great - but if you want to train balance, etc. choose the harder exercises - such as compound exercises vs. single joint exercises. using your own body weight, free weights, cable columns, etc. are much better than using machines - which stabilize for you. You should be doing the stabilization! When you are really tired out and your form is suffering on the less stable exercises - then you can go to the machines, and get some extra gain...you will know when it is time because you are shaky and not well balanced. If you are doing a standing exercise, such as a standing shoulder press - add something to it - maybe stand on one foot, or do a lunge at the same time as you do the shoulder press - combine exercises - make it really difficult - make it so your brain learns new movements.

 

Please review the above link thoroughly. Know the repmax continuum.

 

Next:

 

water weight - gaining weight always involves gaining water weight too. Water weight fluctuates daily. Therefore you cannot really rely on weighing yourself. Sorry. Just the way it is. Over the long run, yes, but don't even bother weighing your self every week - maybe every 2 weeks is ok...but always weigh yourself at the same time, no clothes on, and make sure to drink the same amount of water during these times, and dont eat a lot of food, like carbs, that make you hold extra water weight, unless you eat the same type of food at this time, then its ok.

 

The best way to determine muscle mass gain is to have your percent body fat checked. Best is to have it checked by a professional - someone with good certifications/training...using a skin fold caliper...also there is BIA meters - which many gyms have - it determines your % fat by running a small electric current through your skin and it determines based on resistance what your % body fat is. It is slightly less accurate than skinfold calipers, but still accurate enough - always use it when you have had the same amount of water to drink, as different hydration levels will produce slightly different results. Record your results in a log.

 

Thank you so much. I am reading the link now.

 

Also, I apologize. By those definitions, I would prefer strength to power.

[Songtsan]

Let's discuss meal timing:

 

Meal timing is knowing when to eat your meals, and knowing what types of food to eat during each meal.

 

Here are some variables:

 

Meal time

Meal frequency

Meal composition

Pre-exercise meals

During exercise meals

Post-exercise meals

 

Now, generally you want to eat a meal based on what you intend to be doing in the next 2-4 hours...for example, If I planning on exercising at a certain time, I will have wanted to eat my my meal at least 2 hours before hand. Why? Because working out on a full stomach isnt that great - you need to NOT be disgesting food when you work out - or else your workout won't be as good, because your body will be in rest-and-digest mode, and thus is not adequately suited for exercise. I prefer to eat meals 4 hours before exercise myself...I recommend it whenever possible.

 

Then there is pre-workout meals...they should be small (if any at all), comprised of no more than 5-10g protein, and maybe 10 grams carbs...pre-workout meals aren't so necessary, although there are certain supplements that one should take prior to workout such as L-glutamine, creatine, etc. more on these later.

 

During exercise meals are generally only needed if you have long workout sessions, especially if they are endurance based. Use fast carbs for these..maybe a little protein - but generally protein not necessary for these meals.

 

Post-exercise meals are more important, and IMO should not be skipped - again, its a small thing - about 10 g complete protein, maybe a few carbs, and any supplements that should be taken afterwards.

 

The post-exercise meal prevents the metabolism from catabolizing (breaking down) muscle tissue in order to replace other torn muscle tissue. Over the long run this makes a difference. Post-exercise meal (liquid is best - add some 'fast carbs' too) lets the metabolism choose from the stuff in the blood stream instead. If your body wants sugars to replace depleted free glucose and muscle glycogen (stored glucose in muscle), and it cant find enough in the blood stream, it will also catabolize muscle tissue. This only applies to really long intense workouts, lasting over 1.5 hours, that involve lots of intense cardio as well.

 

Meal composition:

 

What you put in your meal depends on what you are planning on doing in the next 4 hours. If I know I will workout, I want to eat the majority of my carbs (most of which should be complex carbs) in the meal before the workout. Thats when they will be used the most. If I work in a fast-paced work environment, this is also a good reason to add more carbs to this meal. The goal is to insure that the body always has enough of what it needs, so that muscle tissue isnt catabolized. Morning meal should also have more carbs, since you havent eaten for a while (hence you are 'breaking your fast')...Evening meal on the otherhand - needs not so many carbs...protein should generally be evenly distributed among all meals. Your body cannot digest more than 30-40 grams protein per meal in a 2 hour period, so no reason to eat extra protein - you just waste it, and you give your kidneys extra work to break down those nitrates....

 

Meal frequency:

 

Depending on goals, 3 meals a day is good enough for most people...those trying to gain weight should eat an extra meal or two per day. I would say since you are trying to gain weight slower, 4 meals max is fine. Someone trying to gain lots of weight fast maybe 5 a day. Now - you are still going to take your total calories you are shooting for and divide it among the 4 meals - not necesarily equally - but in a smart manner - I will get to this later..

 

btw - you were wondering how much protein to eat per day...generally someone trying to gain weight at your level would probably want between 1.2-1.8 grams/kg of body weight...so you say you are what 170lbs? i cant remember off the top of my head...that means you are 76 kg (170/2.24), which you multiply by 1.2 and 1.8...so you need between 91-140 grams protein per day. The higher amounts you see (like 1 gram per lb of body weight) are for people who work out like 2 hours a day, 5-6 days a week or more. I dont know how much you work out time-wise yet...we'll have to get to that.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Songtsan