Kunlun One Breath Question

[ChiDragon]

It is not a matter of who said what; but my concern is the validity of what has been said.

[ChiDragon]

Let me make myself clear. I am not claiming that one method is better than the other. I only am addressing the basic fundamental principle of breathing which applies and works for all methods. All humans are alike, so is their respiratory system. Please read my post above more carefully and see how precise that my response was to the OP.

[joeblast]

cd why do you bother? just more derailments because you feel the need to interject nothing much of substance, you just feel this nagging need to disparage remarks of mine that go beyond what you've experienced. thanks for a page and a half of OT backtracking.

[Antares]

Why not to read BKF's book on Longevity Breathing? He recommends 70 % to max capacity inhale and exhale.

[Antares]

Which is the JB's post about combining both methods? I can't see it

[Antares]

Cool, will do it. My is reading Kunlun book. I got it 8 months ago and my put it on shelf. Now reading it and want to give it a try.

[joeblast]

lol you guys are too kind

 

wrt "combining methods" its all a matter of focus, really. One cant really concentrate properly on longevity breathing until first hashing out the mechanics - or at the very least achieving some decent result in stilling the heartmind. (Yes, thx drew, I like stilling the heartmind and have been using the phrase where appropriate. Sometimes that's the simplest verbiage to convey what needs to be said, dont always need to explain the steps to get there.) Which may not necessarily involve copious amounts of rote anapana like I suggest - I'm merely saying that the rote method is the most robust way to take control of the physical mechanisms and make them as efficient as possible, and it is a direct way to experience the jhana states and what not, still mind emerges out of rote attention to streamlining all this physical stuff. Cranial nerves are physical, after all, which plays directly into stilling the heartmind, if the physical is not stilled then forget about stilling the heartmind to a decent degree.

 

So really I cant say these are different methods...the method is largely the same, its just a matter of how much work have you done on it, how diligent have you been? The one breath was how I got to "longevity breathing" but really was I doing anything differently, no, not at all, merely the level of practice depth differs. The intent is largely the same also, but the body's conditioning differs from when one begins the practice to the point where one gets superlative depth in it. Its just easier when you have gongfu inertia behind you, assisting. I mean towards the longest breaths and deepest corresponding states when I mentioned it was starting to get tough to tell the difference between 20 minutes and two hours, really just "sitting peacefully for a bit" is what it feels like when all of these processes are well streamlined to a superlative degree. Having dipped in and out of that level or close to it 7, 8 times over the last 10 years or so, I saw the same markers every time, although the markers came at shorter breath durations in subsequent time spans, mainly I believe because the focus of awareness at the niwan got better and easier for me over the years.

 

Pietro's learning to breath thread was cool, that was some earlier stages of figuring stuff out - I tried practicing with BK's CDs but I really couldnt go along with them, which is why I kinda dislike the counts. Would have been nice to have gone to Crete but I didnt have 5k to spend on it. Writing books is hard...its comparatively easy to just sit here and answer things on the fly as they come up, then the answers get tailored.

[Tibetan_Ice]

TI, can you by chance upload what Max said in his book? I would love to see the pages on One Breath.

Hi Malikshreds,

Good point. Seeing as how I am studying this, haven't gotten any response from the Primordial Alchemist site, and want to know the answers, I will do some typing. However, the One Breath is mentioned all over the book and I'm not going to spend the next four hours typing. I suggest you buy the book. I'm still trying to get over the fact that Max describes the joining of emptiness and bliss as an indication that the self is unfolding. I have had several satori moments (like I like to call them) where this fluid like light filled with love, joy, bliss came out of my eyes and poured into my visual range, making it feel like I was everything.. The katika channel..

 

Max says: "It is very important because as we open our vastness from within, a blissful vapour, much like plasma, fills the katika channel and the heart space and is a sign that you are positively moving toward your goal."

 

Ok. On to One Breath.

From "Kunlun System -The Path of Inner Alchemy Leading to the Truth Within - by Max Christensen":

 

 

The One Breath is the merging of the inhale and the exhale through the nose, with the breath's physical movement located at the lower dantien, or in the lowest part of the abdomen. When you breathe in and out without a gap between these two cycles, the separation or polarity starts to gradually fall away. When there is a separation between the inhale and the exhale, this can be an early sign of one's helath slowly failing. This gap of breath is caused by internal tension between the upper and lower body. Proper breathing occurs within the lower dantien, not the chest. This lower breathing will allow the movement of internal organs, massaging them through peaceful and unforced diaphragm breathing, contiuing the flow of life into unity without the separation of the inhale to the exhale, the yin into the yang. This unity will create the formless form of Wu Chi.

 

The One Breath also helps to calm the mind, which affects the proper flow of blood and qi. Eventually, at the higher states of being, the outer breath and its obvious physical movements eventually become more and more subtle to the point that air movement is not really felt because the inner breath awakens. The Taoists call this skin breathing, since the skin acts as a second lung.

 

To explain this concept, here is an illustration.

 

If you have ever jumped from an airplane, you would find yourself not breathing normally; this is from the air pressure forcing oxygen through the pores of your skin. Our methods produce the same phenomenon. Proper relaxed breathing is vital to qi flow. The skin breathing prepares us for the mini-death of awakening, where gross bodily functions are changed into subtle energy absorbers of the quantum field. In addition, it addresses environmental factors that, although seemingly unrelated, affect our ability to effectively invite the universe to play with us. This partially addresses why energy or qi flow is affected by the breath, the weather, the mind, or other aspects of one's life at any moment in time.

 

If while doing the One Breath you experience many thoughts entering your mind, just let them flow without fixating or needing to act on them. Eventually, your mind will become still, and without the mind getting in the way or grasping onto thoughts, the One Breath will reveal deeper things to you.

 

During this breathing, if you focus your breathing on the lower dantien, it will become nice and warm. The middle dantien or heart region will become calm, and the upper dantien, the head, will become empty.

 

 

Well, I guess I had to type that up... because, I guess my answer to my question is found in there. So, I've bolded the parts that answer my original question about 'slowing down the breathing'. I'm understanding this as "peaceful and relaxed breathing" and "proper relaxed breathing" is achieved by just letting it be, not by manipulating the breath. Trying to do a 9-0-9-0 cycle would not be relaxed.. I guess I read too much into the aspect of the bones resonating in the skull and thought that more resonation would be better.

 

After all, Samual Sagan's third eye technique involves "raspy breathing" and also the practice of making noise during breathing called ujjayi breathing would seem like better candidates for stimulating the vibration of the skull bones than just relaxed breathing:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ujjayi_breath

 

 

Ujjayi breathing is a breath technique employed in a variety of Taoist and Yoga practices. In relation to Yoga, it is sometimes called "the ocean breath". Unlike some other forms of pranayama, the ujjayi breath is typically done in association with asana practice.

Ujjayi is a diaphragmatic breath, which first fills the lower belly (activating the first and second chakras), rises to the lower rib cage (the third and fourth chakras), and finally moves into the upper chest and throat. The technique is very similar to the three-part Tu-Na breathing found in Taoist Qigong practice.

Inhalation and exhalation are both done through the nose. The "ocean sound" is created by moving the glottis as air passes in and out. As the throat passage is narrowed so, too, is the airway, the passage of air through which creates a "rushing" sound. The length and speed of the breath is controlled by the diaphragm, the strengthening of which is, in part, the purpose of ujjayi. The inhalations and exhalations are equal in duration, and are controlled in a manner that causes no distress to the practitioner.

 

 

Hmm... I can see there are no answers here.. Or at least, contradictory theory perhaps?

Maybe raspy breathing and ujjayi breathing work on the same principles that Max mentions in the book, to stimulate the skull bones.. It is interesting that raspy breathing and ujjayi breathing are said to also open the third eye.

 

From "Awakening the Third Eye" - Samuel Sagan:

 

2.1 Throat friction

This practice consists of breathing with a friction at the lower

part of the back of the throat, while keeping the mouth slightly

open. The friction is generated during both inhalation and

exhalation. It creates a ‘wind’ type of sound. There is neither

humming nor buzzing, nor any form of chanted sound. The sound

is roughly the same while inhaling and exhaling. If you can, try to

make it a low-pitched sound; it will be easier to sustain over long

periods of time. But before giving more indications and tips on

the throat friction, let me make a few points extremely clear.

Don't try to start a quest for the perfect throat friction. Just do

a ‘kind of’ friction sound and let it adjust itself with time.

If you try to do it too perfectly you will probably end up doing it

all wrong. (The same applies more or less to all the techniques of

this book.) By being too finicky your mind is likely to get in the

way. So just breathe with some vague friction in the throat and

everything will be fine! Just read the indications given below, and

then you can come back to this section in a few weeks to find out

more precisely where your friction is taking place and adjust the

details.

Throat friction, tips and traps

• If you wish to have an immediate demonstration, you can visit

the Clairvision School's Internet site (section: Clairvision Knowledge

Bank), where you will find sound files of throat friction. But

again, keep in mind that any vague friction sound will be enough

to carry you through the exercises of Awakening the Third Eye.

• It does not matter whether you are breathing through the nose

or the mouth, or both at the same time, but the mouth should

remain slightly open. In this position the lower jaw is loose and

relaxed, which generates a certain condition of energy and can be

enough in itself to induce a slightly altered state of consciousness.

The friction comes from area L (for larynx)

• The throat friction is more comfortable and more efficient

when it comes from the back of the throat, not from the mouth

and palate [area M on the figure – M for middle of the mouth]

nor from the area close to the teeth [area F – F for front of the

mouth].

If you were to produce your friction from the middle [M] or the

front [F] of the mouth, the sound would be higher-pitched and

somewhat shriller or even whistly. Experiment and compare each

one.

• The correct friction comes from the larynx and the lower

pharynx, meaning the lower part of the back of the throat [area L

on the figure]. Then the (correct) sound is lower pitched, deeper

and more internalised than if it came from the front of the

mouth.

• Another possible mistake would be to generate your friction

from the upper pharynx (nasopharynx), meaning at the back but

at the top of the throat, behind the inner nasal cavity [area N on

the figure]. In that case, which is incorrect, the friction would

resonate more in the nasal sinuses than in the throat.

• Often when performing the throat friction you can feel a tiny

but distinct vibration in the larynx by gently touching your

Adam's apple with your fingers. (The Adam's apple is the external

protuberance of the larynx, in the upper part of the middle of

the throat. It is more marked in men than in women.) In the

beginning this vibration under the finger is often felt more

clearly during inhalation than exhalation, even though the same

sound is produced during both.

• How deep should the breath be? Its depth and rhythm should be

as normal. Slightly deeper breathing may be implemented in the

beginning, in order to generate a clearer friction. But you do not

need to hyperventilate: this technique does not aim at creating the

type of breathing used in rebirthing. Our purpose is to activate

the energy of the larynx through friction. The emphasis is not on

breathing but on awakening the larynx of energy.

• The purpose of the throat friction is to reinforce your

connection with the ‘energy’, a term that may sound vague in the

beginning but will become more and more meaningful as you keep

working on your third eye. As you become more accustomed to

this friction practice, you will only have to tune into the flow of

energy around you and the right intensity of the breath will

follow automatically. Depth and rhythm will vary, for it is the

nature of energy to vary, and it is our purpose to learn to flow

with the energy.

• The energetic action of this friction breathing will be greatly

enhanced if your neck is straight and vertical, in line with the

rest of the spine. The more perfectly upright your neck is, the

more power is released in the larynx. This can be experienced as a

sudden intensification of the vibration that sometimes takes place

when slightly moving the neck, thereby coming closer to the

perfect uprightness.

• The mouth is only slightly open, but still it is important to

make sure that it remains open, and more precisely that the lower

jaw is relaxed so that the upper and lower teeth do not meet.

When you have become familiar with the vibration between the

eyebrows (introduced in the next chapter), come back to this

point: try to practise the throat friction with your mouth tightly

closed, and then with the mouth slightly open, alternating the two

positions to feel the difference in your energy. You will notice

that as soon as the lower jaw is relaxed and slightly dropped, a

completely different condition of your energy is generated in

which the connection with the vibration is enhanced and a general

opening is favoured.

Note also that this slightly open position of the mouth is not

taken to force you to breathe through the mouth instead of the

nose. Breathe through the nose, the mouth or both at the same

time, as feels most natural to you.

• Beginners sometimes feel that this technique makes their throat

dry or slightly irritated. If so, produce the friction lower down in

the throat. Beginners often make the friction higher up in the

throat, closer to the palate, which is irritating to the throat. In

any case, by practising for a few minutes several times a day this

inconvenience will soon be overcome. (High quality honey can also

be used as a soother and awakener.) With practice this friction can

be maintained effortlessly for hours.

After a few days of practice the throat friction adjusts itself

naturally and all irritating sensations disappear.

• It should be emphasized that the focus of this technique is on

the larynx, not on the breath. In no way can it be regarded as a

practice of hyperventilation, since the intensity of the breath is

just your normal one. It is not even a breathing exercise as such,

since it is only the mechanical action of the air on the larynx that

is used, without especially trying to connect with the process of

respiration. The friction is used to create a stimulation of the

vibration in the larynx, but at a later stage of the practice it

becomes possible to awaken the same vibration in the larynx

without making use of the breath.

• Why is the protuberance of the larynx called Adam's apple, and

why is it more marked in men than in women? It is said that

when Adam tried to swallow the piece of apple of the tree of

knowledge, it remained stuck in his throat!

 

2.2 Purposes and effects of the throat friction

The throat friction is a sound of energy. It quietens the mind and

when mastered, instantaneously induces a ‘tuned-in’ state of

consciousness.

One of its main actions is to amplify any psychic phenomena. The

way we will use the throat friction in the following chapter will

be to connect it with the area between the eyebrows to strengthen

your awareness of the third eye. In later practices the throat

friction will be connected with different structures of the body

of energy to help reinforce them.

What does ‘connecting’ mean? It is a feeling that is easier to

experience than to describe. Suppose you are trying to connect the

throat friction with the area between the eyebrows, for instance.

In the beginning there is a simultaneous awareness of them. Then a

resonance automatically takes place between the two. The area

between the eyebrows seems to vibrate together with the throat

friction. Then a ‘mixing’ takes place. The throat friction combines

with the feeling between the eyebrows. There is a communication

of energy between the larynx and the third eye. That is what is

meant by ‘connecting’.

There follows a simple but essential experience: the perception of

the third eye quickly becomes more distinct and tangible. This

result is clear and instantaneous. The effect of the throat friction

is to ‘give shape’, make things more substantial. Therefore,

whenever you connect the throat friction with a chakra or any

other organ of energy the organ becomes more perceptible. The

larynx makes things manifest, it reveals them.

A similar effect will be observed when working on auras. You first

have to build up the inner space and engage the process of seeing.

Then some exercises will show how your perception of nonphysical

halos and auras is instantaneously boosted when combining

throat friction and vision (see Chapters 5 and 7). The lights and

colours will appear significantly ‘denser’ and more tangible.

The throat friction can also be used to establish a linkage between

different structures of energy. Not only can you connect the

friction to the third eye or any other organ of energy, but you

can also enhance the connection between different organs of

energy, and link them through the friction. For instance in the

chapters on channel release you will work at establishing a linkage

between the energy of the hands and that of the third eye. And in

the chapters on protection you will learn to connect the third eye

with belly energies.

As you advance along this path you will discover several other

miraculous functions associated with the larynx. For instance, the

larynx of energy is a wonderful purifier: it can digest all kinds of

toxic energies. It also plays a major role in the metabolism of the

nectar of immortality. I recommend that you do not treat the

throat friction as routine, but regard it as a sacred quest for the

mysteries of the larynx.

 

 

And it is funny, but, when other people fall asleep, did you ever notice how they naturally make a kind of throat friction sound? It seems to be a natural mechanism.. perhaps the body naturally knows how to access the lower dantien energy on it's own..

 

Stuff to think about..

 

TI

Edited July 4, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hey Joe

I really appreciate all your advice and detail in cultivating the breath.

 

But there is one comment that comes to mind. You seem to be focused on cultivating the breath. But to what end?

 

The way you talk about the jhanas or samadhic states ( or lack of talk, really), makes me think that you are more into the cultivation aspect than using it as a stepping stone for the higher states.

 

I myself did 'spinal breathing' for 4 1/2 years, twice a day, for 10 minutes, preceeded by 5 minutes of bhastrika. At first I got no results other than getting filled with much prana. My practice was 9 seconds for the inhale, 9 seconds for the exhale with no pauses in between. It wasn't until I put in the pauses, which resulted in a 9-4-9-4 breathing cycle that my outer consciousness would dissolve and I'd find myself in the inner world. Actually, towards the end of those 4 1/2 years, I consistently ended up in this huge open space that looked like outer-space (with very faint little stars in the very far distance) and my body (what was left of it) resembled a bar magnet's magnetic field, only it was luminous white light. We are really white light jelly fishes! After a while, I thought it was very boring to just hang in that huge open space and I wondered what use it was..

 

So I have to ask you. What is the purpose of becoming an expert in breath control? Is it for immortality or powers? You can't take the body with you when you die, no matter how fit it is. I've tried the control thing and I didn't get enlightened, so now I'm trying the no-control-thing. Although I keep thinking of ways to push the envelope, so far the no-control thing with reference to breath is working pretty good..

 

Thanks.

 

TI

[joeblast]

Hey Joe

I really appreciate all your advice and detail in cultivating the breath.

 

But there is one comment that comes to mind. You seem to be focused on cultivating the breath. But to what end?

 

The way you talk about the jhanas or samadhic states ( or lack of talk, really), makes me think that you are more into the cultivation aspect than using it as a stepping stone for the higher states.

 

I myself did 'spinal breathing' for 4 1/2 years, twice a day, for 10 minutes, preceeded by 5 minutes of bhastrika. At first I got no results other than getting filled with much prana. My practice was 9 seconds for the inhale, 9 seconds for the exhale with no pauses in between. It wasn't until I put in the pauses, which resulted in a 9-4-9-4 breathing cycle that my outer consciousness would dissolve and I'd find myself in the inner world. Actually, towards the end of those 4 1/2 years, I consistently ended up in this huge open space that looked like outer-space (with very faint little stars in the very far distance) and my body (what was left of it) resembled a bar magnet's magnetic field, only it was luminous white light. We are really white light jelly fishes! After a while, I thought it was very boring to just hang in that huge open space and I wondered what use it was..

 

So I have to ask you. What is the purpose of becoming an expert in breath control? Is it for immortality or powers? You can't take the body with you when you die, no matter how fit it is. I've tried the control thing and I didn't get enlightened, so now I'm trying the no-control-thing. Although I keep thinking of ways to push the envelope, so far the no-control thing with reference to breath is working pretty good..

 

Thanks.

 

TI

To what end - bringing the focus of awareness to bear on something, cultivating the habit-energy and resultant inertia - it programs the subconscious processes. There is basically a subconscious protocol, normally relegated to structures rather beneath our consciousness, but that doesnt mean that we have no control over them. So in that regard what we do have a measure of control over is the ongoing habit energy aspect of the protocol that the subconscious structures like the medulla use.

 

I havent really spoken a ton about other energetic practices, but mostly those have been out of scope, I've just said that this method is excellent to well integrate the energies from any active practice. Of course, active energetic practices one does will very likely accelerate the progress and basically assist in making the depth of longevity/onebreath practice deeper and more robust since the amplitude of the potentials cultivated are partially responsible for the depth, length of breath and the ability for other processes to really have their volume knobs as close to zero as possible.

 

So sorry if I didnt stress the point enough of it being a stepping stone to higher states - it absolutely is - this is all foundational fundamentals aimed at conquering the physical level in a robust manner; in mentioning signal to noise ratios often in the context of conditioning the body and literally reprogramming the subconscious protocols of the body towards something more conducive to an ongoing meditative state.

 

'Being natural' is important - but I take that in a context of not forcing too much as opposed to not even trying to move in the direction of deeper longer more slender higher signal to noise ratio, because we have the body's feedback reaction mechanisms to deal with, and "trying too hard" is absolutely counterproductive. There's a balance between trying hard enough and trying too hard, something for each of us to figure out for himself.

 

When the body's signals are streamlined and harmonized to a very high degree like that, boredom basically disappears - I liken this to...as one cultivates the taming of the neural firing of the cranial nerves, less of those neural chains resonate up to produce random thought. So I think boredom is also partially a matter of not entirely knowing where one wants to go with this - of course I never intended for any of this breath protocol stuff to be the be all end all of meditative or energetic practices, this is merely just pouring a big stable concrete foundation on which to build a house. Just like sexual desire disappears when the generative force is full, hunger, heat and cold no matter when vitality is full, one doesnt need to sleep when the shen is full....by having really done the work and figured out how to well arrest the energetic potentials of the cranial nerves and the resultant chains if neural firing, the mind becomes settled and boredom winds up feeling like a silly idea.

 

Basically setting the stage for the real work, this stuff

 

Excuse me if I'm intruding on your question to JB in which I'll love to see his answer. But higher states? I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of awakening to the non-discriminative mind or stripping away all of your world views. Yes, keep going haha. Want me to give you a copy of the Shurangama Sutra? It's the best sutra for understanding enlightenment. It's said in it that if that sutra is gone, then the Dharma ending age is soon to come.

 

You know I've been taught that an easy method like just focusing on the breath can last a person a lifetime. So we could think of what JB has taught us and say well this will last me a life time. haha. Don't want to think of that right but if you stop worrying less and just put the awareness in its original cavity stuff like advancing as fast as you can doesn't matter anymore. You can disagree or not haha.

 

 

Oh yeah what JB taught is that it transfers over to 24/7 mate. So you don't have to worry about having to do formal sitting all the time. It's just natural!

Good stuff, you are learning well, differentiating between the physical aspects of this stuff and the larger context of the mind/consciousness gamepuzzle. And yes, that is the jist of having reprogrammed the subconscious breath protocol - it carries forth into daily life, sleep, every moment. So think of the clarity one has in meditation when reaching good depth - as I understand, part of enlightenment is carrying this forth at all times - BUT - that doesnt take any emphasis off of actual meditation time, you still have to put in the time and meditate, for that....turns the prayer wheel more strongly than simply keeping one's awareness focused while in daily life. That's why even once you have well integrated the breath protocol...you still need to spend some appropriate amount of time on it, keep up that angular momentum and inertia that the practice has provided for you.

[Tibetan_Ice]

To what end - bringing the focus of awareness to bear on something, cultivating the habit-energy and resultant inertia - it programs the subconscious processes. There is basically a subconscious protocol, normally relegated to structures rather beneath our consciousness, but that doesnt mean that we have no control over them. So in that regard what we do have a measure of control over is the ongoing habit energy aspect of the protocol that the subconscious structures like the medulla use.

 

I havent really spoken a ton about other energetic practices, but mostly those have been out of scope, I've just said that this method is excellent to well integrate the energies from any active practice. Of course, active energetic practices one does will very likely accelerate the progress and basically assist in making the depth of longevity/onebreath practice deeper and more robust since the amplitude of the potentials cultivated are partially responsible for the depth, length of breath and the ability for other processes to really have their volume knobs as close to zero as possible.

 

So sorry if I didnt stress the point enough of it being a stepping stone to higher states - it absolutely is - this is all foundational fundamentals aimed at conquering the physical level in a robust manner; in mentioning signal to noise ratios often in the context of conditioning the body and literally reprogramming the subconscious protocols of the body towards something more conducive to an ongoing meditative state.

 

'Being natural' is important - but I take that in a context of not forcing too much as opposed to not even trying to move in the direction of deeper longer more slender higher signal to noise ratio, because we have the body's feedback reaction mechanisms to deal with, and "trying too hard" is absolutely counterproductive. There's a balance between trying hard enough and trying too hard, something for each of us to figure out for himself.

 

When the body's signals are streamlined and harmonized to a very high degree like that, boredom basically disappears - I liken this to...as one cultivates the taming of the neural firing of the cranial nerves, less of those neural chains resonate up to produce random thought. So I think boredom is also partially a matter of not entirely knowing where one wants to go with this - of course I never intended for any of this breath protocol stuff to be the be all end all of meditative or energetic practices, this is merely just pouring a big stable concrete foundation on which to build a house. Just like sexual desire disappears when the generative force is full, hunger, heat and cold no matter when vitality is full, one doesnt need to sleep when the shen is full....by having really done the work and figured out how to well arrest the energetic potentials of the cranial nerves and the resultant chains if neural firing, the mind becomes settled and boredom winds up feeling like a silly idea.

Hi JB

BUT BUT BUT... Your approach seems to be to conquer the physical and thus control the mind. But isn't it the other way around? What use is smoothing the waves on the ocean when one must penetrate the depths? Control the mind and the body complies. Still the mind and the body stop breathing naturally.

 

Mind is way larger than the cranial nerves and chains of synaptic firing. Sure, that contributes to thoughts, but many many times I have been without a body and the mind was still active. The mind is limitless and it is only a form of deception to believe that it is soley the result of brain matter biology. Where is the mind when one astral travels? Where is the mind when one is dead? And before birth, where is the mind?

 

Programming the subconscious sounds like it is a noble thing to do, but the subconscious is just a warehouse of infinite thoughts that have been filtered away from the coarse consciousness. Isn't meditation the art of penetrating the subconscious? Of opening it up only to realize the thousands if not millions of thoughts that exist underneath? Is not the result of meditation and the absorption into samadhi beyond the subconscious? Is not the main goal to collapse the coarse and fine (subconsious) mind to reveal the underlying structure of pure awareness which transcends all form and energy? To get to the heart?

 

Sorry for being difficult but I must have read too many books about returning to the source rather than pruning the exterior and treating the subconscious as if it contained the will and was capable of intent..

 

TI

[joeblast]

Hi JB

BUT BUT BUT... Your approach seems to be to conquer the physical and thus control the mind. But isn't it the other way around? What use is smoothing the waves on the ocean when one must penetrate the depths? Control the mind and the body complies. Still the mind and the body stop breathing naturally.

 

Mind is way larger than the cranial nerves and chains of synaptic firing. Sure, that contributes to thoughts, but many many times I have been without a body and the mind was still active. The mind is limitless and it is only a form of deception to believe that it is soley the result of brain matter biology. Where is the mind when one astral travels? Where is the mind when one is dead? And before birth, where is the mind?

 

Programming the subconscious sounds like it is a noble thing to do, but the subconscious is just a warehouse of infinite thoughts that have been filtered away from the coarse consciousness. Isn't meditation the art of penetrating the subconscious? Of opening it up only to realize the thousands if not millions of thoughts that exist underneath? Is not the result of meditation and the absorption into samadhi beyond the subconscious? Is not the main goal to collapse the coarse and fine (subconsious) mind to reveal the underlying structure of pure awareness which transcends all form and energy? To get to the heart?

 

Sorry for being difficult but I must have read too many books about returning to the source rather than pruning the exterior and treating the subconscious as if it contained the will and was capable of intent..

 

TI

Heh...it is conquering the physical by focusing the awareness. (Didnt say mind because of other connotations.) But it is also a two way road - what do you think the results from a mind gongfu perspective are when you walk the rote path here? That is a big key. Its not just controlling the physical, it is also tempering the mind, honing the ability to focus - and also a method to control the inputs to the equation, which dynamically feed back into our perception of the surface as well as the depths beneath. For example, with a choppy surface, only the larger coarse currents underneath really show themselves. But with a smooth surface, the signal to noise ratio is enhanced enough that the complexities of the underlying currents simply have more space with which to show themselves.

 

Body disappeared, mind still active...that says to me not enough mind gongfu awareness focus in practice. The cranial nerves are a complex feedback system...there are many logical looped connections that add some redundancy in processing, calming some of the subsystems produces some effects, others produce others - the rote method, being...well, almost overly physically focused at first glance, is pretty comprehensive in that the rote-ness thereof is a very good mind gongfu in and of itself.

 

So when considering astral travel or where the mind is before one assumes a body - well in the latter that is before the interface is set up, and the former, unless the mind-body connection has produced sufficient quietude and amplitude-fuel, then I'm somewhat hard pressed to figure out the difference between astral travel and daydreaming.

 

The subconscious is more than just a conglomeration of thoughts - the brain builds neural networks based on habit and experience - so the subconscious is a reflection of already established patterns of various aspects. It is no different than how you practice translates to how you perform in the actual competition. "In the zone" reflects these well ingrained patterns that let the individual simply express and let the trained fundamentals emerge skillfully. It is no different than the underlying substrate of the universe producing the refraction pattern in the double slit michaelson morely experiment (except that one is rigid and not dynamic like the person oriented stuff.)

 

We're not opening a massive padlocked chest and looking at all of the contents with this approach - it is basically dissolving it all down to its bare fundamentals, leaving nothing that we've casually tossed in, just those things we've decided need to be in there that will be useful for our expressed purpose. It almost sounds like you are accepting that the thoughts are there regardless of our efforts - to a certain extent they are, as in,....ok, I have this "root-core energy" concept in my head, that of our energy of whatever quality - before it manifests as anything. By thinking, acting, etc, etc, that utilizes this root-core energy and something manifests. Energy that is otherwise stagnant in some fashion, finding no other outlet, will inadvertently manifest as thought sooner or later. I mean, even in the most accomplished this mechanism still happens to some extent. But, what we are doing by rote integrating a particular breath protocol and putting in the mind gongfu to get there in a robust and comprehensive fashion.....so here what we are doing is teaching ourselves how to make use of this root-core energy and use it skillfully for a productive act like enhancing the lower dantien charge or fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness - instead of letting the additional energy sit restless until it finds an outlet - like water it will just go where gravity takes it, unless you build a dam and control the flow - with the process under control, more potential to harness the energy.

 

So the big key is learning to harness that root-core-primordial potential, however you wish to describe it, before it manifests as anything - similar to how when one is celibate the idea is to not let the lustful thoughts manifest and therefore produce additional fluid - it is much more "profitable" to avoid the manifestation in the first place.

 

You're not being difficult, nothing wrong with asking questions to clarify your understanding It also forces me to clarify my own understandings.

Edited July 5, 2013 by joeblast

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Joe

 

I certainly appreciate your comments.

 

You said:

 

Body disappeared, mind still active...that says to me not enough mind gongfu awareness focus in practice. The cranial nerves are a complex feedback system...there are many logical looped connections that add some redundancy in processing, calming some of the subsystems produces some effects, others produce others - the rote method, being...well, almost overly physically focused at first glance, is pretty comprehensive in that the rote-ness thereof is a very good mind gongfu in and of itself.

 

 

The body disappears. Although the hands are placed palms up on the thighs, the arms have separated and are now performing some kind of mudra at the lower dantien. There is no sensation of physical body, for the sensation that results floats around. It is the dissociation of the astral or etheric body from the physical. Why not then would the mind not dissociate? Does this not prove that the mind is not tied to the physical brain, but that the brain is only, like you say, an interface?

 

Then you said:

 

So when considering astral travel or where the mind is before one assumes a body - well in the latter that is before the interface is set up, and the former, unless the mind-body connection has produced sufficient quietude and amplitude-fuel, then I'm somewhat hard pressed to figure out the difference between astral travel and daydreaming.

 

So your teachings are addressing the interface, but you do not comment on what is beyond the interface.

Are you saying here that astral is nothing more than daydreaming? I've read many stories about astral travel, and have done it myself many times. I don't think Robert Monroe did an ounce of breath cultivation in his life. I don't see the connection between needing 'amplitude-fuel' and natural abilities.

 

 

It almost sounds like you are accepting that the thoughts are there regardless of our efforts - to a certain extent they are, as in,....ok, I have this "root-core energy" concept in my head, that of our energy of whatever quality - before it manifests as anything.

 

 

I will try to explain in my terms. You can silence the coarse consciousness and have no thoughts in that region of the mind. But when you do, if you look closely, the subconscious starts to appear. It contains thousands and thousands of thoughts/images/visions. They arise very quickly and pass away because you don't grasp at them. But they are still there. If you grasp at any of them, the coarse consciousness is ignited once more and whatever you've grasped causes mindful conceptualization. To me, speaking of 'root-core energy' is what the thoughts/images/visions arise from and then dissolve back into. I thought we all have unilimited root-core energy, as isn't this the dharmakaya? Or the Tao?

 

Anyway, I was going to ask you. There is a spot in the medulla, whereupon, if I focus on it, all need to breath stops. The breath stops. Completely. It just shuts off.

Is this area one of the points that the Toaists say to stay away from because it can be deadly?

 

Thanks.

TI

Edited July 7, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi everyone

I just received a response from the Primordial Alchemist about my question in the original post..

 

Here is the reply:

 

The breath will slow down on its own accord, you just breath in and out naturally, without force, through the nose with no pushing on inhale or exhale. Breath ratios take care of themselves from proper practice, do not control it, as you would not control nature, let it take its course naturally.

As to gold flower, some beginners breath fast, while those who have done it naturally breath slower, as you progress the outer breath will naturally disappear and the inner breath appears, then one cycle can last a very long time, so just let it happen this is not india yoga or its philosophies.

Sincerely,

Primordial Alchemist llc

The Official website of the KUNLUN® System

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.primordialalchemist.com

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Joe

I've read your post on this link:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/28594-3-dantiens-microcosmic-orbit/

 

In it, you said:

As one completes harmonizing the breath mechanisms via rote anapanasati, more habit-energy (think muscle memory) is built up and less 'mental capital' is required to keep the structures operating in harmony - eventually one may progress towards perturbing the yinyang dynamic of the lower dantien itself and let the inertia of the muscle memory carry forth - so usually when I say "lower dantien breathing" I am specifically referring to using Yi-intention to directly connect with and express the lower energy center.

 

So, I am a little confused. I thought anapanasati was the body's natural breathing rhythm. Nowhere in the Buddhist instructions for anapanasati does it say to control the breathing in any way. I guess you are using the term "anapanasati" generically, or is there a version of anapanasati that uses controlled breathing?

 

I didn't think that you could train something that is naturally built in. I can see, perhaps that your approach to explaining these phenomenon are mostly from a physical standpoint. Instead of saying this: "... (think muscle memory) is built up and less 'mental capital' is required to keep the structures operating in harmony" I would tend to think the opposite; that we are training our mindfulness, which requires more mental capacity, to relax the muscles, let go and let the muscles do what they are naturally supposed to.

 

Subtle little points.. eh?

 

Well, in simple terms, my whole understanding is that the purpose of minfulness of breathing is to get the coarse consciousness to assume the same perspective that the subconsious has with respect to breathing. In doing so, it is a portal into the subsconcious. The way I view it is that the heart monitors the breathing continually, because it pumps blood based on the rate of breathing. When one practices mindfulness of breathing, one is putting on the same glasses that the heart is using to monitor the breathing. Thus, you become one with the heart, one with the subconsious processes that perform the monitoring.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

TI

[DiamonD]

The smiling practice fits nicely with the breath, as I feel it always brings me back to a place of letting the breath flow, and less constriction, furthermore I think the smile allows one to encounter stuck unresolved facial tensions of crying, bitterness, etc,

[joeblast]

/\

Hi Joe

 

I certainly appreciate your comments.

 

You said:

 

 

 

The body disappears. Although the hands are placed palms up on the thighs, the arms have separated and are now performing some kind of mudra at the lower dantien. There is no sensation of physical body, for the sensation that results floats around. It is the dissociation of the astral or etheric body from the physical. Why not then would the mind not dissociate? Does this not prove that the mind is not tied to the physical brain, but that the brain is only, like you say, an interface?

Disassociation in this regard appears to be that the cranial nerves are quiet. I didnt mean to insinuate that there is no other way to get there but the rote method - my question was, how robust is it, how long does the state last? When you really start "stepping outside of time" so to speak and the durations wind up surprising you, that is indicative of robustness in the foundation for these phenomena.

Then you said:

 

 

So your teachings are addressing the interface, but you do not comment on what is beyond the interface.

Are you saying here that astral is nothing more than daydreaming? I've read many stories about astral travel, and have done it myself many times. I don't think Robert Monroe did an ounce of breath cultivation in his life. I don't see the connection between needing 'amplitude-fuel' and natural abilities.,k

Well, I cannot at present ascertain others levels of cultivation or ascertain how interdependent origination has come together that these results are possible, but suffice to say there is more than one path up the mountain. I'm not really saying it is absolutely imperative one do this as I say, I'm just saying I found and assembled some ideas that produce these results in a very unambiguous manner - just that a lot of effort needs to go into it one way or the other. But my main question still remains, how robust are the effects of the methods used? I've never heard of Robert Munroe and I seldom space truck on astral travel...but the level of one's cultivation is absolutely correlated, as I've heard some stories differing depths of astral travel and its like the difference between flying a hot air balloon vs launching the space shuttle - either way goes up into the air, one a far cry from the other.

 

 

 

I will try to explain in my terms. You can silence the coarse consciousness and have no thoughts in that region of the mind. But when you do, if you look closely, the subconscious starts to appear. It contains thousands and thousands of thoughts/images/visions. They arise very quickly and pass away because you don't grasp at them. But they are still there. If you grasp at any of them, the coarse consciousness is ignited once more and whatever you've grasped causes mindful conceptualization. To me, speaking of 'root-core energy' is what the thoughts/images/visions arise from and then dissolve back into. I thought we all have unilimited root-core energy, as isn't this the dharmakaya? Or the Tao?

To me, this "looking at the subconscious" is calling these patterns forth. There may be some value in doing that, depending on the practitioner. The root-core energy is what they dissolve back into, yes...but my point is is it necessary to manifest them in the first place? Or are we doing awareness exercises here? Thought percolates up from this energy...but if you consider it in the context of habit-energies - reinforce that which you wish to propagate, attenuate that which you do not wish to. As patterns are attenuated, their potential lessens, the neural networks of the brain do not spontaneously manifest them as much, eventually the potential drops below a threshold where it is well attenuated and wont really manifest unless called for.

Anyway, I was going to ask you. There is a spot in the medulla, whereupon, if I focus on it, all need to breath stops. The breath stops. Completely. It just shuts off.

Is this area one of the points that the Toaists say to stay away from because it can be deadly?

 

Thanks.

TI

heh...of course, any technique may be overused, the effects of overuse differ depending on the technique. if the body isnt prepared well enough to handle very long breathless states then yes, that can cause damage.

 

Hi Joe

I've read your post on this link:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/28594-3-dantiens-microcosmic-orbit/

 

In it, you said:

 

 

So, I am a little confused. I thought anapanasati was the body's natural breathing rhythm. Nowhere in the Buddhist instructions for anapanasati does it say to control the breathing in any way. I guess you are using the term "anapanasati" generically, or is there a version of anapanasati that uses controlled breathing?

 

I didn't think that you could train something that is naturally built in. I can see, perhaps that your approach to explaining these phenomenon are mostly from a physical standpoint. Instead of saying this: "... (think muscle memory) is built up and less 'mental capital' is required to keep the structures operating in harmony" I would tend to think the opposite; that we are training our mindfulness, which requires more mental capacity, to relax the muscles, let go and let the muscles do what they are naturally supposed to.

 

Subtle little points.. eh?

 

Well, in simple terms, my whole understanding is that the purpose of minfulness of breathing is to get the coarse consciousness to assume the same perspective that the subconsious has with respect to breathing. In doing so, it is a portal into the subsconcious. The way I view it is that the heart monitors the breathing continually, because it pumps blood based on the rate of breathing. When one practices mindfulness of breathing, one is putting on the same glasses that the heart is using to monitor the breathing. Thus, you become one with the heart, one with the subconsious processes that perform the monitoring.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

TI

What is your definition of being mindful of something? As to naturally built in, yes, its the subconscious pattern...your subconscious wont necessarily have a well streamlined breath protocol unless you train it to do so. We're learned animals after all, right? My main point there is basically that it is possible to train the subconscious processes. Training them makes them more efficient. Train, and the training carries forth into daily life. The more focused the training, the more mindful one is, the better ingrained the training. But the thing is, it is both training mindfulness and training the physical as well as training the subconscious. Cultivation should always be an exercise in awareness.

[SeiyouTouyou]

I have just attended the Level 1 workshop. Back to the original question, according to Kan, just breath normal (abdominal breathing). The most important thing is to close/remove the gap between inhale an exhale as much as possible.

[joeblast]

I've found that whenever you attend something where breath isnt the primary focus, especially if it is a "level 1" of sorts, you're told to just breathe naturally. You dont want to bombard the class with too much info - just keypoints like that are enough to give the practitioner something to work and progress from. But it is good to have fundamental points reiterated!

[Celestial]

Been thinking of checking out Kunlun lately. Cameron and joeblast seem like good people.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Celestial

[joeblast]

You will get farther picking a method and practicing it sincerely and diligently, just about no matter what it is, than if you find "the most powerful practice evah" and dont give it the full focus of your awareness and intent. /\