Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt; good or bad practice

[norbu]

Has anyone had experience with Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt system? Did it seem to produce a beneficial result? What is your experience with the system both pro and con?

I'm not interested in it as a martial art/combat skill, but as a prerequisite for his Tai Chi Chi Kung.

Norbu

[orb]

There's no proof that Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt works. I met a lot of Mantak Chia "experts" even some of his "instructors" and they all have a lot of theories and nothing else. His taichi expertise I would question as well.

The only thing that he is good at is his Microcosmic Orbit practice - which I'm not sure were exactly it can take you.

This "Microcosmic Orbit practice" after some practice will create some "sensations" in you like (heat, pressure, spinning effect etc) So the practitioners get all excited about that and they are convinced that now they understand Qi and Jing etc.

But they still can't do anything with it because the system is incomplete.

Some of his exercises got included in other practices and that made it even worse because it's taking the practice even further away from the source.

But Mantak Chia is a smart dude. For example if you are sick and you go to his healing center - he will immediately send you to a local hospital first and then after you get your health back then he will "treat" you some more amazing qigong applications.

[z00se]

^^^^ haha. I don't agree.

 

I think it is good, i have practiced for years. In aikido we use wooden swords and i can resist them quiet well (slow application high force) using the chi pressure. I don't know about mantak chia's tai chi i only read the book, but i do another style i learnt from a teacher in china. The book explains quiet well the tai chi concepts. I would suggest that it is quiet a good form because it is short, that way you can master it more quickly and start to reap the benefits. You won't get many benefits while you're learning some long one that lasts for an hour or something! The benefit comes once you know how to do it automatically and can relax into it

 

 

You don't need to do iron shirt to do tai chi. But it certainly boosts your feel for tai chi and makes it easier to do it correctly. It helps you heal yourself too. I'd go as far to say as iron shirt I is the best or 2nd best practice for time vs result.

[Cheshire Cat]

I've heard that Mantak CHia's Iron SHirt comes from Shaolin temples and it is suppsoed to be a very powerfull technique and a complete Qigong on his own.

So, I would suggest to approach it with care because it can be dangerous as well. Do things very very slowly.

Master the stances first. Then slowwwwoly try lightly the breathing pattern. Be gently.

[norbu]

Thanks for your input guys. Nothing like asking and getting experienced answers. I had always considered Iron Shirt, Bone and Marrow work as a hard style chi kung associated with shoalin and other hard styles.

The Tai Chi interests me as where I live there are no Tai Chi teachers with any background to speak of, so I was curious enough to buy and read the Tai Chi book, which as you know, kept promoting his Iron Shirt book.

Anyone else want to chime in, I appreciate all the input I can get.

Norbu

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[rex]

Good info here:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20120712155803/http://precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS123Intro.htm

 

and here:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20120414014326/http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1Intro.htm

[JustBHappy]

I would stay away from his material. I realize that there are not many books, videos, or teachers in the west but I honestly don't understand why so many get fooled by folks like him and BK Francis. I guess in this age of decline, anyone who writes books, videos and claims to be a great master will end up fooling a lot of people. Sad, but clearly true. Meanwhile there are some highly skilled and enlightened masters on the planet quietly doing their thing.

I have a friend that lived with Mantak in Thailand many years ago. He volunteered for an extensive period of time, helping him publish books, and run retreats and such. He and his wife have no shortage of stories about the guy that are...shall we say less than the conduct of someone who should be teaching this material. I can say without any doubts that his sexual methods can be downright dangerous and would highly urge people to stay far away from them. Just because someone claims to be a master, writes books, and acts the part doesn't mean a lot. My experience has been quite the opposite; "he who says does not know, he who knows does not say."

First thing when learning from any teacher is to closely examine the teacher and think if you really want to become and emulate his/her spiritual development, health, actions and lifestyle. I can say without a doubt that neither Frantzis nor Chia pass this test for me.

[Bubbles]

I should just mind my own business

Edited July 3, 2013 by bubbles

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Basher]

WARNING : THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY

 

 

Buy a Jacket / Shirt with large pockets all over.

Slip one of Mantak Chia's Books into each pocket and

Voila.... you're now impervious to injury.

[Cheshire Cat]

WARNING : THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY

 

 

Buy a Jacket / Shirt with large pockets all over.

Slip one of Mantak Chia's Books into each pocket and

Voila.... you're now impervious to injury.

 

And what books should we use for spiritual immortality?

Could I use the same jacket?

[Leif]

First thing when learning from any teacher is to closely examine the teacher and think if you really want to become and emulate his/her spiritual development, health, actions and lifestyle. I can say without a doubt that neither Frantzis nor Chia pass this test for me.

 

Amusingly enough, Frantzis writes in his energy gates book, that one shouldn't let what you consider a negative personality trait to stop you from learning from someone with authentic knowledge, did he have himself on mind LOL.

I'm grateful for his books actually.

 

Apart from all the rumors, I stopped considering Chia's material after all the horror stories with his sexual qigong techniques, and after the legal case he lost about plagiarizing content from someone else's book.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Leif

[Trunk]

Several HT instructors warn about the Healing Tao (HT) Iron Shirt (and sexual) practices here.

 

To quote what one of the instructors wrote (back in 1999),

Everyone who has studied with Master Chia knows that the packing practices in Iron Shirt have not been actively taught for quite a few years. The reason is that these practices were originally developed to be used by experienced martial artists with highly developed energy systems. If the energy channels are not already open, there will be problems.

 

The 'difficulty' that was referred to around the above quote, which came up on the HT forum years ago (before TTBs existed) was that a student developed temporary blindness and vertigo from practicing HT Iron Shirt. A HT instructor was trying to help the student and wrote on the HT board asking for help.

 

The HT still keeps selling the Iron Shirt books and videos as-is. Go figure.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Trunk

[Jox]

...But they still can't do anything with it because the system is incomplete.

Some of his exercises got included in other practices and that made it even worse because it's taking the practice even further away from the source...

 

I have been practicing MC stuff...

Would you like to let me know why is it incomplete?

[orb]

I have been practicing MC stuff...

Would you like to let me know why is it incomplete?

 

It is incomplete for many reasons. It is like somebody is teaching you how to build an airplane but all they teach you in the book is basic algebra and they say - if you get really good at algebra then one day you will build an airplane.

But I doubt that you understand that. I have zero interest in convincing you either way.

But if you are really practicing it - then instead of wasting your time on the forum go and study with Mantak Chia directly or Michael Winn - that teaching is very accessible so there is no point in getting a 2nd hand opinion

[Hkalami]

A person must first fill their dantian up. Then learn microcosmic orbit and iron shirt. This process takes time... years of meditation and focusing.

So I think his books are incomplete.

[Cheshire Cat]

Mantak Chia's system covers certain stages of spiritual development according to daoist alchemy.

His teaching is for real the "closed door secret" of many schools, and more than that he put together various practices in order to fill every possible gap.

 

If it were a total fraud, how much easier it would be to sell some form of Osho-like tantric sex with no health implications? Why take the trouble to convince men of the benefit of semen retention?

Because he genuinely wanted to share true daoist knowledge.

 

The fact that it just doesn't work it's not exactly because the teaching is incomplete, rather these are very elitist secrets by nature ...

they cannot be popularized that easy.

 

imho.

[norbu]

I appreciate all the input and thoughts you guys have listed here in response to my question. I think what I most wanted to ask, but didn't, is this: Why is Iron Shirt necessary for Tai Chi? I've done Chen, Sun and Yang with good instructors...but none ever mentioned anything about Iron Shirt. I've always considered Iron Shirt a "Hard style" practice.

Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice?

Norbu

[Trunk]

Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice?

 

imho, tai chi (or whatever internal martial art or movement qigong practice you use to integrate the body with heaven & earth) should come first, before a practice like iron shirt (IS). Otherwise, a person will have no sense of integration, and no sensitivity as to whether IS is causing integration or dis-integration.

 

There are gentler ways (from other schools) to do IS type of breathing and - as we all know - the breath (+ awareness) can be used to help in a progression of development: balancing the energy, providing a skillful object of concentration, develop the lower dan tien, guide energy into the organs, fascia, bones ... in the context of healthy, harmonious, *GRADUAL* integration.

 

I think the term "iron" can easily be misleading to westerners because it immediately brings up the idea of hard style, force, trying hard etc etc ... weight lifting football mentality & physicality that we westerners are more familiar with. But that path is *NOT* the path of harmony, is not Taoism. In Taoism, harmonious integration can lead to "iron" (ability to withstand blows). ... but "jade" is really a better guiding conceptual ideal, as it is both soft and hard.

 

I haven't read the HT IS book in a long time (and my view is that the HT system is full of land mines, so I've left it entirely, long ago) ... but my impression of the book, when I read it and was younger, less experienced in Taoism in general, naive ... let me just say that I found the term "iron shirt" as an immediately catchy marketing term that inspired in me wrong concepts, wrong guidelines ... at least that is how I interpreted it as a young strong western male. Maybe I wouldn't have listened as easily to phrases like "the path of harmony", "balancing yin and yang", back then, but it would've at least 've been pointing in a healthy direction. (Retention is another concept that is immediately catchy, highly marketable, but full of wrong orientation for newbies.)

Edited July 4, 2013 by Trunk

[norbu]

Yeah, I think you are correct in your view of IS. I'll probably just leave it alone , at least for now.

Thanks again for the help.

Norbu

[NotVoid]

I think what I most wanted to ask, but didn't, is this: Why is Iron Shirt necessary for Tai Chi? I've done Chen, Sun and Yang with good instructors...but none ever mentioned anything about Iron Shirt. I've always considered Iron Shirt a "Hard style" practice.

Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice?

Norbu

From what I have seen, not everyone practices and teaches tai chi the same way. Some people seem to approach tai chi training as more like an external martial art, where others teach that one must completely relax and never tense up or otherwise use obvious force when practicing tai chi. My guess would be that some teachers who have a strong background in more external style martial arts, may have learned tai chi from someone and then combined the tai chi with some of their external martial arts training approaches. In the so called Tai Chi Classics however, it would seem that the approach of staying completely relaxed and allowing your body to slowly transform at its own natural pace will eventually lead to similar results of 'iron body', but this comes about naturally through years of diligent and proper practice. Those looking for quicker results from the martial arts perspective may mix in external martial arts practice methods in order to achieve practical martial skills faster, but in my view this may hinder or prevent the long term natural development of deeper internal skill. Many modern day Wudang Taoists also seem to mix hard and soft training practices, but I have no idea if these training methods really accurately reflect traditional Wudang internal martial arts training methods. Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter. No actual answers.

 

Edit:

For clarification, when I said above that proper practice will "eventually lead to similar results of 'iron body'", I don't mean practicing tai chi will lead to a hard style 'iron body', but with years of proper training in tai chi the body becomes more resistant to blows due to development of internal energy and the natural changes that the body undergoes as a result of this long term internal training.

 

Some teachers may have added other practices to their teaching regime that develop other sorts of skills.

Edited July 23, 2013 by NotVoid

[Republic Of Zen]

I have been practing Mantak Chia Iron Shirt methods for a few months, my teach is Kris Deva North. I am very happy I have found it as it has helped me in many ways.

1. Helped me managed my energy more efficiently, I was getting dizzy from tantra energy practices.
   
2. It feels good doing them so I do them.
   
3. My skin is notably "better".
   
4. I can take a beating for long periods of time.
   
5. I had a scar on my chest from falling down three flights of stairs, a doctor told me it would take 10 years to heal, it was gone after a month of doing iron Shirt.
   
6. The practices help me feel ground and more balanced.
   

I understand that some traditional Taoists would dislike his practices because he has wasternised it to make it more appealing to his audience.

There is no visable Taoist teacher to follow so I will continue reading his books and following his path. I will drop him for another teacher if I meet one in person. I am going traveling soon so if I randomly some across a Shaloin Temple I would study there.

I have been looking for people to point specifics in his tachings which are wrong. At the moment I am only seeing vague comments. At the moment I'm just considering it to be rivial from competing schools.

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Republic Of Zen]

hi, I also learned it from Kris. Never had any problems, only benefits.

 

One size doesnt fit all, there's never a concensus of opinion about anything at all.. a fuller picture is always gained by listening to a wide range of voices.

 

 

There arent many voices in here that are experienced with iron shirt.

 

Well now we're out in the open talking about it.

 

How would you describe your skin after practising?