Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt; good or bad practice

[ChiDragon]

hehehe.......
It was only a matter of language. Actually "iron cloth shirt(铁布衫)" is the same as "iron shirt". The two names came from the same source but they just sound better in each language. It was the keyword "iron" only matters. 铁身功法 tieshen gongfa, 铁杉 tieshan and 铁杉功 tieshangong are the same. It is only a matter of description. AN iron-shirt Qigong is THE iron-shirt Qigong.

Sorry, for all the confusion....!!!

Edited July 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[kevin_wallbridge]

Oh I understand the various terms, I've been working on my Chinese for 25 years. What confused me was your reference to "the official Chinese term." What authority would that be? Do you refer to one of the Standing committee resolutions of the Chinese congress? Is this a term outlined by the 国家体育总局/state sport authority? I have never encountered a term used in Qigong and martial arts for which there is an "official Chinese term." I guess I just never heard a Chinese practitioner of the method of iron-shirt, or however we call it, use the "official term."

 

(I hope that it comes across that I am teasing you back, yet this is not always clear in text. So I'm saying it )

 

I'm still uncomfortable with saying "the iron-shirt" Qigong, since my own experience has shown me so many different, even contrary approaches have been referred to as being of that method. Mantak Chia's method is very much of the type used by Shaolin, yet the Xinyi Liuhequan style is quite different. If 铁布衫 is a desired result there seem to be some diverse roads to achieve it. Many roads to the same destination.

[Republic Of Zen]

As adults its not Mantak Chias fault for that people dont follow nessicary safety precautions.

[Mandrake]

As adults its not Mantak Chias fault for that people dont follow nessicary safety precautions.

RepublicOfZen:

 

A big component of adulthood is loosing ignorance and getting life experience. One can thus be an adult when it comes to relationships, handling finances, work-ethics, health etc. BUT one can be a "child" when it comes to energy work, spirits, cultivation and so on.

Physical age does not guarantee anything, especially naive dangerous curiousity of fields that one is interested in.

 

If you are a spiritual master, then the "care for yourself, give no sh** about others" and "I've washed my hands clean; what happens them is not my responsibility" are attitudes that are unfitting. A spiritual master should have mastered primitive egotic impulses as these, should transcend the subject limitation, and have some increased wish for the betterment of people; taking responsibility for the consequences for her actions would be a natural expression of this.

 

 

All the best,

Mandrake

[Republic Of Zen]

RepublicOfZen:

 

A big component of adulthood is loosing ignorance and getting life experience. One can thus be an adult when it comes to relationships, handling finances, work-ethics, health etc. BUT one can be a "child" when it comes to energy work, spirits, cultivation and so on.

Physical age does not guarantee anything, especially naive dangerous curiousity of fields that one is interested in.

 

If you are a spiritual master, then the "care for yourself, give no sh** about others" and "I've washed my hands clean; what happens them is not my responsibility" are attitudes that are unfitting. A spiritual master should have mastered primitive egotic impulses as these, should transcend the subject limitation, and have some increased wish for the betterment of people; taking responsibility for the consequences for her actions would be a natural expression of this.

 

 

All the best,

Mandrake

 

 

I find your comment antagonistic.

 

Are you saying you cant be a child in finance or an adult in energy work?

 

Mantak Chia gives warnings. he wants you to do the workshops and read the books. If you choose to only read the books thats your own business.

I recommend you dont accuse people of things without backing your accusations. You come out jealous by just randomly attacking Mantak Chia.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Republic Of Zen

[Trunk]

Mantak Chia gives warnings. he wants you to do the workshops and read the books. If you choose to only read the books thats your own business.

 

Apparently the HT organization has considered their own IS packing practices dangerous enough that they no longer teach them in workshops, haven't for more than 15 years (per the quote below made by an instructor in 1999). Yet the HT still sells their IS books and videos.

 

Everyone who has studied with Master Chia knows that the packing practices in Iron Shirt have not been actively taught for quite a few years.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Trunk

[ChiDragon]

Oh I understand the various terms, I've been working on my Chinese for 25 years. What confused me was your reference to "the official Chinese term." What authority would that be? Do you refer to one of the Standing committee resolutions of the Chinese congress? Is this a term outlined by the 国家体育总局/state sport authority? I have never encountered a term used in Qigong and martial arts for which there is an "official Chinese term." I guess I just never heard a Chinese practitioner of the method of iron-shirt, or however we call it, use the "official term."

 

(I hope that it comes across that I am teasing you back, yet this is not always clear in text. So I'm saying it )

 

I'm still uncomfortable with saying "the iron-shirt" Qigong, since my own experience has shown me so many different, even contrary approaches have been referred to as being of that method. Mantak Chia's method is very much of the type used by Shaolin, yet the Xinyi Liuhequan style is quite different. If 铁布衫 is a desired result there seem to be some diverse roads to achieve it. Many roads to the same destination.

 

Well, if you google 铁布衫 or 铁衫, then you will be a big difference. Ever since I was a kid, I have known the term 铁布衫 for a long time. However, it sounds better in English as "Iron Shirt". It doesn't sound very good in Chinese, but 铁布衫 is. When it comes the translation of the Chinese terminologies into any language, I had found that there is always a variation due to the language difference.

 

The first stage of "iron shirt" requires the practitioner to know Qigong, then Neigong, in order to practice the final Hard Gong(硬功).

 

Another thing that is the people in different parts of China do use a different term for the same thing due to the locality. There was really nothing official about it. Even though there is Standing committee resolutions of the Chinese congress to set up the standards, but the local people still do not pay much attention to it but stick to their own terminology.

 

Edited July 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[kevin_wallbridge]

Haha, ChiDragon. It may be just me yet I still don't think you get where I'm coming from. I was only referring to usages of terminology "iron-shirt" that I heard in Chinese by native Chinese speakers. Not google searches or other research. When I heard the terms used in actual discourse I never heard anyone say 铁布衫. I'm not saying its not the correct way to say it, I'm just saying I never heard a Chinese practitioner who talks about iron-shirt say it. I wasn't talking about its use in translation, only in Chinese as I heard it.

 

Now I suppose you could say the 铁布衫 that I train from Xinyi Liuhequan is not true 铁布衫 because it does not follow the Qigong-first method that you outlined above. The body banging training is not preceded by any Neigong, its hard gong from start to finish. I see this as being related to your assertion (and part of the point I was trying to make) that different parts of China use different terms for the same thing. I would add that they sometimes use the same terminology for different things. Just because something means one thing in one place it does not always means that is what it means to someone else.

Edited July 25, 2013 by kevin_wallbridge

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, Kevin, that I had given you some invaluntary information.........

[Mandrake]

I find your comment antagonistic.

 

How you find my comment / what you subjectively add to my words is your issue.

 

Are you saying you cant be a child in finance or an adult in energy work?

 

No.

 

Let me quote again what I said:

 

"A big component of adulthood is loosing ignorance and getting life experience. One can thus be an adult when it comes to relationships, handling finances, work-ethics, health etc. BUT one can be a "child" when it comes to energy work, spirits, cultivation and so on."

 

The emphasis is on CAN. Needless to say, public school and our culture hardly raise us to adulthood regarding energetic work.

 

Mantak Chia gives warnings. he wants you to do the workshops and read the books. If you choose to only read the books thats your own business.

 

And it is precisely here that our opinions on the matter diverge.

 

I recommend you dont accuse people of things without backing your accusations. You come out jealous by just randomly attacking Mantak Chia.

 

Don't be silly. Plenty of masters out there have as a principle to only share publicly and openly practices that are safe to practice; if there is any risk, then all instructions are reserved for one on one teaching; me agreeing to this principle is just that, not "jealousy."

 

Secondly. Two things have been discussed: the prevalence of damages from MC's practices, and, our opinions on responsibility. The former is a fact, the latter is a personal opinion, not an "accusation."

 

There is hardly any senior member on this forum who raises an eyebrow anymore when people come and have hurt themselves through MC's books - commonly Iron shirt, the sexual practices. It's been discussed many times before here and on the healingdao forum. 9+ years ago Michael Winn even had a discussion on his board where it emerged that MC regretted publishing some of the books. So when I, or other senior members of the community, enter discussions about this, it is not "random" (without "backing") nor "attacking" (as if this was a fight).

 

And thanks but no thanks for your personal recommendation. You just joined last month!

 

 

All the best,

Mandrake

[Isimsiz Biri]

I would stay away from his material. I realize that there are not many books, videos, or teachers in the west but I honestly don't understand why so many get fooled by folks like him and BK Francis. I guess in this age of decline, anyone who writes books, videos and claims to be a great master will end up fooling a lot of people. Sad, but clearly true. Meanwhile there are some highly skilled and enlightened masters on the planet quietly doing their thing.

I have a friend that lived with Mantak in Thailand many years ago. He volunteered for an extensive period of time, helping him publish books, and run retreats and such. He and his wife have no shortage of stories about the guy that are...shall we say less than the conduct of someone who should be teaching this material. I can say without any doubts that his sexual methods can be downright dangerous and would highly urge people to stay far away from them. Just because someone claims to be a master, writes books, and acts the part doesn't mean a lot. My experience has been quite the opposite; "he who says does not know, he who knows does not say."

First thing when learning from any teacher is to closely examine the teacher and think if you really want to become and emulate his/her spiritual development, health, actions and lifestyle. I can say without a doubt that neither Frantzis nor Chia pass this test for me.

 

Excellent post. I agree 100%

[Starjumper]

I confess to have a fairly strong aversion to Mantak Chia's publishing empire. I find him to be like the "Anarchist's Cookbook" of the Qigong world.

 

I was a student of a Korean Taoist and Zen master who was lving in Seattle. For two weeks some young scruffy lookin' fellers came from the East to study with him. I asked my teacher and he said they were students of Chia who had come to learn one of his systems. Well, a couple of months after they left who do you suppose comes out with a new book about just that same subject? Why it was none other than the expert author himself, now an expert of this new system.

 

Concerning Iron shirt. It is for building up resistance to blows (taking punches) in self defense. The tension and stress creating exercises do nothing for health or generating energy, and most of the practitioners who focus on such things die young (heart attacks, strokes, popped blood vessels, stress and anger, etc). Thanks again Chia.

 

The experts say: chi kung must be practiced as softly as possible, in the most relaxed way, for a person do derive energy benefit.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Starjumper

[ChiDragon]

 

The experts say: chi kung must be practiced as softly as possible, in the most relaxed way, for a person do derive energy benefit.

 

Most people don't believe this idea. Why did you reveal this secret.....???

[Starjumper]

Most people don't believe this idea. Why did you reveal this secret.....???

 

Most don't believe it? That's interesting. Well then it's just as well, because you can tell them stuff out in the open and if you don't tell them it's a secret they'll just ignore it.

[ChiDragon]

Most don't believe it? That's interesting. Well then it's just as well, because you can tell them stuff out in the open and if you don't tell them it's a secret they'll just ignore it.

 

That would be worse if you tell them in the open. They will never believe you or me then.......!!!

[三江源]

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Edited September 2, 2013 by cat