Taoism or Taoism?

[Kajenx]

Now that I've lured you in with that criptic title, lol...

 

I feel a little silly, but I don't understand how the mystical traditions and the philosophy can fit together in the same mental space. It seems like the sage that Lao Tzu describes doesn't have many concerns with immortality or controling body energies or semen retention. So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept? They seem mutually exclusive to me.

[Marblehead]

Actually, excellent questions. I cannot speak to them but there are some member here who can. I hope you get a nice discussion.

[Samurai Mountain man]

Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept? They seem mutually exclusive to me.

 

In my own voice, this I tell you:

It might seem that way but nothing is mutually exclusive within the Tao and the Tao is All-ecompassing. One of the most basic concepts a Taoist has to realize is that there's yang within yin and Yin within Yang and so forth... they're opossites but they're both part of each other as much as they're part of a whole.

 

But that's the philosophical, sublime note on your question. There's a lot more (or actually, a lot less the case being) to religious Taoism. Sadly however; I can't offer you a scholar's take on "Religious" Taoism because I don't know nearly enough about it to be accurate enough. Some other bum im sure will humbly help soon enough,

 

Cheers!

 

Oh and it's good to be back you guys! it's been a while.

[baiqi]

"Immortality": Lao Zi doesn't care about it. He is concerned about the "sage" in the taoist sense. Zhuang Zi is the first to mention "immortals" in his writings.

 

 

"controling energy": you do have some parts of the DDJ talking about it, but it is quite cryptic.

 

Semen retention seems to be an addition from tantric practices.

[shanlung]

Try to think less and then it will become more clear to you

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Kajenx]

Lol, most taoist don't even know chinese only a fraction. Most western taoist have no clue about Chinese Taoism. So to say oh Lao Tzu didn't do that could be made out of ignorance. There's lineages traced back to him. Study in China for many years and a part of a lineage, perhaps then you'll understand Lao Tzu's teachings better. Remember many Taoist texts are in Chinese and not translated to English.

 

Haha, well this is why I asked. I've always been hesitant to say I'm a Taoist because of how Chinese it really is. I admit that I have no idea what Chinese culture is like beyond my love for Wu Xia movies. ^^

 

What I'm asking, though, is how philosophical Taoism relates to the folk traditions in the minds of practitioners. I understand some things can be lost in translation, but there's a lot less lost than people who use the quote usually admit. I know french pretty well and I've seen subtle differences in word choice and grammar, but after you look at a few different translations of something, you're not going to be missing anything. Wordplay can be described and understood. We're all still humans, after all.

 

What I've learned from Lao Tzu is that the more you study, the less you understand. The more you follow traditions and rituals, the further you are from the path. Actually, to even call ourselves Taoists probaly means we aren't actually Taoists. So how do the folk traditions mingle this idea with the rituals they do? Or is it simply a different set of beliefs and has nothing to do with the philosophical side?

 

Try to think less and then it will become more clear to you

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

That's exactly what I'm saying!

[shanlung]

You need to be very good to know where is the Path that you know you are further from the Path should you take one route and more on the Path when another route is taken.

 

It is like the Tao that you think is the Tao is not the Tao

The Name you think is the Name is not the name.

 

And yet you know the Path to tell one deviate from the Path.

 

All I can say is that the more one uses the rational mind, the chances that person will be further from the Path.

You have a better chance of knowing the face you have before your father had the lust in his heart and your mom the gleam in her eye and the sound of one hand clapping than to know the Path intellectually.

 

And if so, you must be of astounding intellect to decide traditions and rituals bring you further form the path.

The last I saw that was from an entity masquerading as Professor Emeratus in Taoism casting associate fellowships left and scholarship right and knew all to be known of the unknowable.

And another entity decided all the Taoist Master and Hermits who went Mastering and Hermitting the last 4 thousand years got it all wrong and Taoism was stagnant until he came alone here with his thesis of what is the core and principle of Taoism.

 

But do not let me hold you back from making that heroic attempt.

 

If your mind is Irrational, you chances of understanding the Path might well be a lot better.

 

Either way, I wish you all the success in your endeavour.

 

Idiot on the Path

[Kajenx]

I think you might be mistaking my question Shanlung. I didn't make any of the claims you bring up there, I just don't understand the need for all these practices. The concepts in the Tao te Ching are pretty simple, and the alchemy and magic in the folk tradition is pretty complex and full of rules and traditions. I'm not against traditions, and I don't consider retreating up into the mountains or meditation to be silly or pointless. It just seems like searching for immortality or some kind of bodily or mental control is opposite to the idea of yielding and letting go. Why would a Taoist try to become immortal? The pursuit itself seems antithetical.

 

 

EDIT

 

From Wikipedia:

The number of Taoists is difficult to estimate, due to a variety of factors including defining Taoism.

 

Maybe this is actually the perfect state for anything called Taoism to be in. It's not supposed to be definable after all.

I've done a bit of reading around the internet, and it seems like maybe part of the answer to my question is that "Taoism" itself, as a THING, is a western concept. The Chinese seem to be much freer with the idea of religion and treat it eclectically. If you can pick and choose the gods you worship and the philosophies you follow from a cultural grab bag, then there's more of a melting pot effect and everyone has different shades of Taoism, Confucianism, etc in them. Things that Westerners see as different and contradictory practices are all mingled together.

It's also easy to interpret a lot of Taoist texts in a huge number of ways, so it wouldn't be inconsistent for someone seeking immortality to still be called a "Taoist."

But this makes me feel better in a way, because if it's true that there is such a melting pot, it wouldn't really be wrong for westerners to consider themselves a part of that pot. I'm probably a little bit Zen, a little bit Stoic, a little bit Taoist, etc.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Kajenx

[shanlung]

I like to tell folks who have no idea what is Taoism but have heard of Zen Buddhism is that the Zen in Zen Buddhism is Taoism.

 

Perhaps the New Age books contributed to the current mess of what Taoism is as one and all wannabe authors jumped on the bandwagon of Taoism books copying and plagiarising from their betters and end up bastardizing the Tao until Lao Tse will not have know it himself if he is to read and know of the Tao via the profusion of English books on that subject.

 

I suggest you should go for older books. Where Taoist Masters and Hermits truly existed in the past. Unless you are good with Ouija boards and can call the spirits of those Masters up, you perhaps can read of their thoughts via people who actually studied with the Masters and talked to them.

 

One such person is John Blofeld. I cannot recommend him strongly enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blofeld

It is also easier for you to read in English than to try to read in Chinese.

 

If I can try to give you a fragment of what Taoism is, and using the words of John Blofeld when he spoke to those Masters

 

Sorry that I am answering with this with part of an old letter I wrote. I do hope the
words of Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng can answer a bit of your
question.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----


I have mourned that many of my books stayed back in my home town
while I was wandering ,working and staying elsewhere.

But a selection of John Blofeld's books followed me.

I thought I quote one of my favorite portion from his book 'Taoism,
The Secret and Sublime' which may help others understand and decide
for themselves if Taoism is a philosophy or a religion.

I myself, never did feel that either path is important.

He was talking to this Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng.

(now using also his format and capitalizations..)
--------------------------------------------------------

Having heard from me of Sir Edwin Arnold's lovely expression for
entering Nirvana, 'the dew-drop slips into the shining sea', he
exclaimed with delight, but added:

'And yet it does not capture the whole. Since the Tao is all and
nothing lies outside it, since its multiplicity and unity are
identical, when a finite being sheds the illusion of separate
existence, he is not lost in the Tao. By casting off his imaginary
limitations, he becomes immeasurable.

Plunge the finite into the infinite and, though only one remains, the
finite, far from being diminished, takes on the stature of infinity.
Such perception will bring you face to face with the true secret
cherished by all the accomplished sages. The mind of one who returns
to the Source thereby BECOMES the Source. Your own mind is DESTINED
TO BECOME THE UNIVERSE ITSELF!'

Taoistic Idiot

[Wayfarer]

^{Now that I've lured you in with that criptic title, lol...}

 

^{I feel a little silly, but I don't understand how the mystical traditions and the philosophy can fit together in the same mental space. It seems like the sage that Lao Tzu describes doesn't have many concerns with immortality or controling body energies or semen retention. So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept? They seem mutually exclusive to me.}

^Hi,

^{I have investigated just that for the last few years and in the end gave up. It is a little like a Chinese man asking another Chinese man what is Christianity in England. Is the exorcism practice of an old Catholic tradition the same practice as the Quakers? Etc etc. As I'm sure you know, Taoism did not begin with the Tao Te Ching (TTC) and no expert seems to be able to accurately pinpoint a time when it did. It became at one point people practising the Way. When we read the I-Ching we can see much of Taoism there and that goes way back before TTC and also the energy and health writing of the Yellow Emperor of various dates but seemingly around 2,700BCE. So to me, there are a number of practices all happening together under no specific banner other than - the Natural Way. So perhaps we should only look to modern day Taoism for clues and we see of course the Zhengyi practice of Exorcisms, Medium work, communication with Immortals, Weddings, Funerals etc...from what I've read Taoism went this way as a consequence of Chinese people giving money to the new Buddhist religion so Taoists realised they had to either copy the Buddhist temple work, be of more use to people in villages/towns or go hungry. And the we have the Longmen tradition of the Quanzhen school which is more akin to Buddhist temple life and tranquil sitting. Though of course there are others - see Louis Komjathy's books for more info.}

 

^{As I've said elsewhere...immortality means two separate things in a Taoist sense 1) Attaining the Tao is to realise you are that which is unchanging and therefore immortal...this then is a Knowing which occurs at the moment of realisation, of no-self and 2) energy exercises, diets and a whole host of prayers rituals and so on to extend the life of a person.}

^{Those people I know who have ventured to Huashan etc in search of Taoist masters discover it is hard to find any. At least in a Lao Tsu sense (although no one really knows who he is, or who they were). I've heard of people with psychological, drug and drink problems going into the mountains to live the Taoist life as they have nowhere else to go, temples also become a little like visiting St Paul's Cathedral or Sacre Coeur i.e. a day trip to site see, not to find some deeply spiritual corner of the world. Taoism of course sees the Western traveller as a gold mine at a time when temples are struggling financially - so innocent visitors can be sold a crock of crap as long as they hand over some money. All a little harsh but isn't much of religion like this? The British Taoist Association have connections with the kind of temple and priests I think you would say practise authentic Taoism so may be take a look on their site for info.}

^{Ultimately and as you have elluded to, the Tao is everywhere. In essence, if you leave your home and travel to China you have gone nowhere, you haven't moved. So stay where you are. Look at trees and clouds, flowers and animals all practising the Tao without realising or thinking about it - there, that's where you'll find Lao Tsu. If anywhere or anything in nature can be found communicating with immortals through ritual or ceremony, or exorcising demons through symbols and blessings - then it will be the Tao but there isn't but for man, so such practises are really not the Tao. Again however, utlimately everything is Tao and so nothing is.}

 

^{Out of interest...you may wish to read the Gospel of St Thomas, a scroll that was discovered early last century and believed to be the actual words of Christ - very Taoist, very Zen.}

^{Good topic.}

^Heath

Edited July 4, 2013 by Wayfarer

[doc benway]

Now that I've lured you in with that criptic title, lol...

 

I feel a little silly, but I don't understand how the mystical traditions and the philosophy can fit together in the same mental space. It seems like the sage that Lao Tzu describes doesn't have many concerns with immortality or controling body energies or semen retention. So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept? They seem mutually exclusive to me.

 

 

Most of what I've read in books and online about the practices and "mystical" traditions in Daoism is misleading, misunderstood, and bastardized (as Shanlung so eloquently pointed out) as compared to what I've gotten from my teacher. Even some of the most "respectable" resources out there are very superficial or downright misguided. Most derive from a few, limited sources, often 2nd or 3rd generation or worse, and the decay in accuracy and understanding is exponential. So much of the old, core writings is allegory and often very tricky to decipher without guidance. I'm much more well versed in cultivation practice than theory - I can't quote very much of Laozi or Zhuangzi and I don't know much about Yijing, or Fengshui; but I've practiced Zuowang, Zhanzhuang, and Neijia, for about 14 years consistently. I don't practice any sort of deity worship and don't understand that aspect of Daoism very much, but shamanism does become a core element of advanced practice.

 

In my experience, the practices stand side by side with theory just as life experience stands alongside interpretation and intellectualization. The two are related, clearly. My teacher talks very negatively about theory and scholarship and respects only practice and direct experience/transmission. Certain profound changes in my perspective and insight occurred in association with dedicated practice. Whether there is a cause and effect relationship, who is to say? I suspect there is... But there are always other factors in life as well, especially if you're not sequestered in a cave or monastery.

 

 

 

So I'd say one should first and foremost master this:

 

Try to think less and then it will become more clear to you

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

 

 

 

Any "method" can work, no need to get too hung up on the specifics. But, then again, no method is a guarantee of success. And who is to define what success looks like?

 

A few recent masters that are a bit more directly accessible for some in the West are Nisargadatta, Ramana, Krishnamurti and Demello. At least for me, they were able to guide me [edit for clarity] through their words. But again, they are simply a starting point for personal practice.

 

 

 

 

 

One such person is John Blofeld. I cannot recommend him strongly enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blofeld

It is also easier for you to read in English than to try to read in Chinese.

 

If I can try to give you a fragment of what Taoism is, and using the words of John Blofeld when he spoke to those Masters

 

 

 

Sorry that I am answering with this with part of an old letter I wrote. I do hope the

words of Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng can answer a bit of your

question.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----

 

 

I have mourned that many of my books stayed back in my home town

while I was wandering ,working and staying elsewhere.

 

But a selection of John Blofeld's books followed me.

 

I thought I quote one of my favorite portion from his book 'Taoism,

The Secret and Sublime' which may help others understand and decide

for themselves if Taoism is a philosophy or a religion.

 

I myself, never did feel that either path is important.

 

He was talking to this Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng.

 

(now using also his format and capitalizations..)

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Having heard from me of Sir Edwin Arnold's lovely expression for

entering Nirvana, 'the dew-drop slips into the shining sea', he

exclaimed with delight, but added:

 

'And yet it does not capture the whole. Since the Tao is all and

nothing lies outside it, since its multiplicity and unity are

identical, when a finite being sheds the illusion of separate

existence, he is not lost in the Tao. By casting off his imaginary

limitations, he becomes immeasurable.

 

Plunge the finite into the infinite and, though only one remains, the

finite, far from being diminished, takes on the stature of infinity.

Such perception will bring you face to face with the true secret

cherished by all the accomplished sages. The mind of one who returns

to the Source thereby BECOMES the Source. Your own mind is DESTINED

TO BECOME THE UNIVERSE ITSELF!'

 

 

Taoistic Idiot

 

Very nice selection - big +1 for Blofeld for anyone who wants to read about Chan and Daoism.

 

Another good English resource is Andy Ferguson.

From his book, Zen's Chinese Heritage:

- Pei Xiu presented Huángbò with a text he had written on his understanding of Chan.

- Huángbò placed the text down without looking at and after a long pause asked, “Do you understand?”

- Pei Xiu replied, “I don’t understand.”

- Huángbò said, “If it can be understood in this manner, then it isn’t the true teaching. If it can be seen in paper and ink, then it’s not the essence of our order.”

Edited July 4, 2013 by steve

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Judging by some later posts it looks like you have at least gone a little beyond this:

So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand how it relates to the philosophical ideas.

Dismissing the whole of Warring States and Han religious, philosophical and mystical thought as "folk religion" is a more than a bit presumptuous. There are a lot of issues that you have raised since then and dealing with all of them in a satisfactory way would be rather time consuming. As a start I will point out that walking around the rim of the worlds wheel, all the spokes seem very different and it is hard to imagine how they all lead to the same hub. From the hub the view is very different. Empty your mind of vague beliefs masquerading as knowledge, grasp the one and never let go. Then you can begin to understand chapters 10 and 11 and how they relate to chapter 39.

 

If I have time I may come back to address this topic and other topics in more detail.

[Jetsun]

There isn't necessarily any need for any of those practices. Plenty of people have got on fine without any of them, eg Ramana Maharshi

[Jetsun]

Yeah but before you throw away anything, you gotta evaluate it and then evaluate yourself. So saying there is no need may not be the right choice of words.

You may not have to evaluate it, it depends on the individual and where they are in their own evolution. An Individual like Ramana didn't feel the need for Qigong because he had the realization he was already at home so didn't feel the need to do anything to get to where he already was, and any such efforts may just take him further away. Whether he did such energy practices in previous lives I don't know.

[doc benway]

Yeah but before you throw away anything, you gotta evaluate it and then evaluate yourself. So saying there is no need may not be the right choice of words.

I think practices have value.

Also, letting go of practices has value.

One of the most important lessons we learn from/about our practices is that, ultimately, they are not needed.

And I think these are lessons that each of us needs to work through on our own, in our own time, and in our own way.

Peter Fenner puts it beautifully when he says, "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

[Kajenx]

Judging by some later posts it looks like you have at least gone a little beyond this:

Dismissing the whole of Warring States and Han religious, philosophical and mystical thought as "folk religion" is a more than a bit presumptuous. There are a lot of issues that you have raised since then and dealing with all of them in a satisfactory way would be rather time consuming. As a start I will point out that walking around the rim of the worlds wheel, all the spokes seem very different and it is hard to imagine how they all lead to the same hub. From the hub the view is very different. Empty your mind of vague beliefs masquerading as knowledge, grasp the one and never let go. Then you can begin to understand chapters 10 and 11 and how they relate to chapter 39.

 

If I have time I may come back to address this topic and other topics in more detail.

 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by calling it "folk religion" but that's the most common verbal distinction I saw when I was reading about it online.

 

It seems like I offended quite a few of you, and maybe that’s because most people asking these questions seem to be saying the mystical or shamanistic practices are less legitimate. I’m not trying to say that at all, I’m just genuinely interested how the philosophy relates to the practices, because it doesn’t seem to make sense from my perspective. If it’s not supposed to make sense logically, that’s fine too, but I still wouldn’t mind at least an attempt at explaining what the practices do for the practitioner. I’ve become wary of mysticism after plodding my way through the Christianity, Wicca, and various forms of Paganism, and was drawn to Taoism because it seemed so direct and obvious. When I read the Tao te Ching, it was like I was reading an outline of everything I’d come to understand on my own up to that point. So if it truly is the Zen of Zen Buddhism, then why the rituals? I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, not out of disrespect.

[rene]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by calling it "folk religion" but that's the most common verbal distinction I saw when I was reading about it online.

 

It seems like I offended quite a few of you, and maybe that’s because most people asking these questions seem to be saying the mystical or shamanistic practices are less legitimate. I’m not trying to say that at all, I’m just genuinely interested how the philosophy relates to the practices, because it doesn’t seem to make sense from my perspective. If it’s not supposed to make sense logically, that’s fine too, but I still wouldn’t mind at least an attempt at explaining what the practices do for the practitioner. I’ve become wary of mysticism after plodding my way through the Christianity, Wicca, and various forms of Paganism, and was drawn to Taoism because it seemed so direct and obvious. When I read the Tao te Ching, it was like I was reading an outline of everything I’d come to understand on my own up to that point. So if it truly is the Zen of Zen Buddhism, then why the rituals? I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, not out of disrespect.

 

Kajenx, hello and welcome.

 

I find no offense in your words... and I doubt you've offended anyone, other than those who may feel the need to always protect their own ideas about these things, so no worries. (-:

 

I understand what you are asking. To answer, it might be easiest to start from an earlier point.

 

Back in the 60's & 70's... the counter-culture (we hippies ) stumbled on the ideas of Laozi and, like you, it resonated. Big time. Also starting about then, and moving well into the 80's & 90's, martial arts became a big thing... until 'all things Asian' (rather, non-western ideas) were enjoyed, along with other counter-culture writings and "Tao of _____" books ($$$) which multiplied like rabbits. The ideas held by 'Philosophical Taoists' are frequently sourced from those times. Marblehead may have something to add here.

 

More recently, there has been a surge (or resurgence) in the West to learn more about the other aspects of Taoism, including the religious practice of, and the alchemical/mystical practice of; so, like before, there has been an increase in available writings ($$$) and teachers ($$$) and methods ($$$) which may or may not be similar to what was, and is, available in China. Add into this the Buddhist influence (into 'Taoism' in both East and West), the natural cultural differences & meanings when writings are changed from 'characters' to 'words', and suddenly you have the formula for a bucket-full of disagreements, between people with a very wide range of ideas.

 

Those disagreements start with "Who gets to call themselves "Taoists" and continue through "Which method of cultivation will bring Tao closer" and sadly, frequently, ending with "You suck and I don't because I'm more spiritual than you.".

 

Which means - there is no single answer to your question. How one blends the philosophy with cultivation practice can vary greatly between individuals... and depends greatly on where on the path their individual understandings are. At the beginning of the journey, they seem to not be compatible, as you've observed. So much so - that some rigid-minded cultivators attempt to 're-interpret' the philosophy to support their thnkings. And - some rigid-minded philosophical-taoists use the words of Laozi as an excuse, to do or not do this or that.

 

Both ends of that extreme have totally missed the point, imo, but those are things that each person discovers (or not) over time.

 

 

warm regards

 

 

Edit to add: Regarding your question of "When I read the Tao te Ching, it was like I was reading an outline of everything I’d come to understand on my own up to that point. So if it truly is the Zen of Zen Buddhism, then why the rituals?" That is the core of your question, and each person's answer would be most interesting to read! - but it would be an answer from that person's perspective only... although my hunch is there are some answers that would be identical to others'. And rather revealing. lol

Edited July 6, 2013 by rene

[Stosh]

Your suspicions are correct. The two streams have virtually nothing in common except for the aspect that they both try to teach one how to live well and they are so intermingled at this point that it doesn't matter.

[rene]

Your suspicions are correct. The two streams have virtually nothing in common except for the aspect that they both try to teach one how to live well and they are so intermingled at this point that it doesn't matter.

 

There is another little thing they have in common...

 

Both streams spring from the same source - the nature of Tao.

 

Once that common headwater is found, it's fun to then turn and watch the different ideas converge...then separate...then converge again. Not always fun, however, watching boatmen argue theirs is the one true stream. Especially since neither stream is ever separate from the source - and they both flow from, and back to, the same ocean.

 

 

 

 

But that's just the view from here. (-:

 

warm regards

Edited July 7, 2013 by rene

[Stosh]

That's a fine connection , I include it as well

[Dragon X]

i like these words.....................

 

Tri to think less and then it will becum more clear to you ......

[Stosh]

Why are you yelling ?

[Marblehead]

Why are you yelling ?

Because he is hard of hearing?

[NotVoid]

What can we really say for certain?

Edited July 21, 2013 by NotVoid

[shanlung]

(snipped)

Beyond that, what can we really say for certain?

 

Very nice!

 

A more scholarly erudition then what I wrote before of this road (or Path)

 

Helps if you accept the road you are on might be the destination, and not just the road to the destination.

And at the very end, what the road was might not even matter.

Or even if there was a road

 

 

 

Idiot on the Path