Taoism or Taoism?

[doc benway]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by calling it "folk religion" but that's the most common verbal distinction I saw when I was reading about it online.

 

It seems like I offended quite a few of you, and maybe that’s because most people asking these questions seem to be saying the mystical or shamanistic practices are less legitimate. I’m not trying to say that at all, I’m just genuinely interested how the philosophy relates to the practices, because it doesn’t seem to make sense from my perspective. If it’s not supposed to make sense logically, that’s fine too, but I still wouldn’t mind at least an attempt at explaining what the practices do for the practitioner. I’ve become wary of mysticism after plodding my way through the Christianity, Wicca, and various forms of Paganism, and was drawn to Taoism because it seemed so direct and obvious. When I read the Tao te Ching, it was like I was reading an outline of everything I’d come to understand on my own up to that point. So if it truly is the Zen of Zen Buddhism, then why the rituals? I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, not out of disrespect.

No offense taken here... I think you've been most respectful.

 

To address the relationship between practice and theory a bit further.

Once again, most of what you read in print and online is fairly inaccurate so you probably know less about the actual practices than you think. And there is no understanding of the methods without direct personal experience. It is not something that lends itself to verbal description in the absence of direct experience.

 

Daoism, first and foremost, is about embracing your own true nature.

The reason that practices are necessary (or shall I say, offered?) is that nearly all of us are far removed from our "true nature." We have been conditioned and programmed since birth and just about everything we occupy ourselves with in this life takes us further from, rather closer to our nature.

So the question arises, what is that true nature and how to discover and explore it?

 

The first step is an investigation of one's self...

There is nowhere else that you are in closer proximity to reality than within yourself.

No book or lecture can tell you what you can find by looking inside.

There are many different ways of doing that and, IMO, no one person or method has the only answer.

All methods are simply guidelines to help you to explore who you are and how you relate to everything around (and inside) of you.

 

One thing that most of the methods have in common is to try and show us that we are something other than the incessant mental chatter that occupies most of our awareness (both awake and asleep). The Daoist methods are particularly effective at this but so are others.

 

Much of what you read, especially on the web, has to do with people lusting after better health, longer life, magical powers, and so on... At the risk of offending anyone, these are spiritually immature goals. They have little to do with the process and result of spiritual inquiry. Sure, we all want to be healthy and live a long time (well, most of us), and good health is certainly important to enhance and support spiritual and energetic cultivation. My point is that the methods exist for a reason, they do work for many, although one of the first things my teacher told me when I started practicing is that there are no guarantees for success.... But it is misleading to think of these practices as a simple prescription for power, sexual potency, or immortality. It is much more subtle and profound than that.

 

One of the most important aspects of Daoist training (IMO and based on my teacher's methods), is that it be a personal journey that is not biased by the experiences, expectations, and conditioning of others. This is one reason why talking to others about our experiences (especially for beginners) can not only be unhelpful but misleading and distracting. The journey must be a personal one. Sure, a teacher can show you a method and periodically give you guidance, but you must do the work yourself and reach your own conclusions. And if you do that, no one can ever take that away from you. Once you see truth, it is very clear what is false.

 

I can say that my practice has definitely helped me to have a deeper understanding of myself, everything around me, and the theory. When it comes to Daoist practices, my experience has been that reading does little to help, and is more likely to be misleading than enlightening. On the other hand, once I have had certain insights and experiences in my practice, I find that I understand much more of what I do read of the theory, be that traditional Daoist texts or other sources. It's all pointing to the same underlying truth.

 

If the Daoist path of cultivation is not a good fit for you, that is fine. There are plenty of other paths to follow and as Krishnamurti so succinctly put it.... "The truth is a pathless land."

[rene]

the truth is a pathless land

 

無道

wu dao

no fixed path

[lienshan]

So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand

how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept?

 

So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the philosophical ideas could help me understand

how it relates to the mystical side of the folk religion. Doesn't all that thinking and analyzing cloud the whole concept?

[rene]

So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the philosophical ideas could help me understand

how it relates to the mystical side of the folk religion. Doesn't all that thinking and analyzing cloud the whole concept?

 

What makes you think that "thinking and analyzing" is part of the philosophical path?

 

[Stosh]

Not really , because each person sees things independently

for instance

Person A sees order in his world its rhythms and cycles and may extapolate a god which gives meaning to it relative to himself.

Person B sees order in the universe the laws and rationale and extrapolates that it runs according to rules and instead seeks meaning within himself.

Both are looking at the same phenomena , both for the same coherency or meaning.

So within the context of each persons belief system there is a requirement for consistency unto that system,( lest one be at odds with himself), but the two or more ways at seeing the world don't have to match person to person.

I figure wandering blind is clouded.

If your beliefs vary significantly from those of A or B go ahead and substitute it

Edited July 9, 2013 by Stosh

[shanlung]

Not really , because each person sees things independently

for instance

I just finished reading a very interesting article in BBC.

That was not on the Tao, or even close to it.

It was on how one man could have shortened the was in Vietnam. If he was listened to.

But as often in the real world, he was not.

 

Read of that hereViewpoint: Could one man have shortened the Vietnam War?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23037957

 

And in that context, what about us who often read what we want to read and not what was written.

That include myself naturally. So do spare me from all the talk of reading and thinking and analysing. Which consisted more of cuting and shaping the square peg so that can fit into the round hole or is it the other way around.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Stosh]

Dude , you can keep your pegs any way you want them.

but no , I wont spare you If you look at --what you dont want to see.

But You have been reading thinking analysing,, on your own.

You can , in your mind, be reminding yourself of what your opinions usually are..

keeping things unconfused etc

So I cant force any agreement ,l can only point at where we might already agree.

And where we dont ,, So what?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Stosh

[Riyue]

IMO:
The problem of 道教 is :
they dont know a border between the invisible in nature - and the invisible created by faith.
道法自然 is a clear statement by laozi:
Stop inventing things by faith - see what roots in nature.

[rene]

道法自然 is a clear statement by laozi:

 

**

Yes, and that aspect governs all, imo.
Nice to see you here.

warm regards

[NotVoid]

End wisdom, abandon knowledge,

the people benefit a hundred times.

 

...

 

Tao unfolds naturally.

 

--- --- ---

 

Looking down on others because their views or ways are different,

even though they cause no harm to us or to others, is this really beneficial?

Who is benefitting, and how are they benefitting?

Who is truly right, and who is truly better?

 

Does the eagle view the robin with disrespect because its ways are different?

The eagle allows the robin to be a robin.

 

Are knowledge and wisdom merely guises for deception?

What do we truly know for certain?

Edited July 10, 2013 by NotVoid

[Marblehead]

Are knowledge and wisdom merely guises for deception?

What do we truly know for certain?

As a generalization, I would say yes to knowledge but no to wisdom. (There is no need for deception after wisdom has been gained.)

[NotVoid]

What or who guides wisdom, and what or who decides whether an action

is truly wise or actually foolish?

 

A tree stump's existence merely follows the natural laws of the Earth.

Does it need to be wise or knowledgeable to do so?

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

What or who guides wisdom, and what or who decides whether an action is truly wise or actually foolish? A tree stump's existence merely follows the natural laws of the Earth. Does it need to be wise or knowledgeable to do so?

For a new member you aren't at all bashful. Hehehe. Fair questions.

 

Tzujan guides wisdom. The stump is being Tzujan.

 

Yes, I know, those are simplistic answers. Think about them though, Okay?

[NotVoid]

I am only asking questions. I prefer simple. The more complex things are, the more I have to strain to try to consider them. If tzujan, then what need do we have for a concept of wisdom?

Edited July 10, 2013 by NotVoid

[Marblehead]

You pretty much have the essence of the Tao Te Ching in that post. Sure, I pretty much knew that we would talk about wu wei. But wu wei, I suggest, requires wisdom. Even following our Tzujan requires wisdom. I think that this is because we think too much. Hehehe. It is also because we are taught stuff that is supposed to be more important than just being ourself.

 

Yes, the leaf floats down the stream. What happens when it approaches a waterfall? Fall down go boom! There are times when we need to take action or react to situations. This is where wisdom comes in. Knowing whether or not to act and when and with how much force with which to act or react.

 

Wu wei isn't doing nothing, it is doing nothing unnatural based on conditions at any given point in time. Sometimes we rest and other times we work. Chop wood, carry water, take a break.

[NotVoid]

Sorry, I edited my post too slow and you had already replied. I decided to say it a different way. In the first version of my reply, I was trying to see where following a certain perspective would lead me. After reviewing what I wrote, I decided I was unnecessarily complicating the matter, so I rewrote my comment.

 

I will repeat the new version of my reply here and delete it from the previous to maintain the timeline:

If we truly let go and submit fully to the natural way, are we then wise? If we speak of wisdom, then again, how do we decide what is truly wise and what is actually foolishness? It seems wisdom can not exist without its counterpart. Counterparts exist in a relative frame of reference only.

 

What is tzujan in your view?

Edited July 10, 2013 by NotVoid

[ChiDragon]

End wisdom, abandon knowledge,

the people benefit a hundred times.

 

End wisdom(of cunning), abandon knowledge(of cheating),

the people benefit a hundred times.

 

In order to make logical sense in conjunction with Line 2, paradoxically, this is what the intended meaning of the classic verse by Lao Tze.

Edited July 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[rene]

If we truly let go and submit fully to the natural way, are we then wise?

 

When one can do that, wisdom isn't needed.

 

 

warm regards

[NotVoid]

 

End wisdom(of cunning), abandon knowledge(of cheating),

the people benefit a hundred times.

In order to make logical sense in conjunction with Line 2, paradoxically, this is what the intended meaning of the classic verse by Lao Tze.

This is along the lines of what I was alluding to, although you have added something there that wasn't specifically written to try to make sense of it.

 

It does seem that we may well have to read between the lines to try to make sense of this however. I would be more inclined to think it has something to do with what I was trying to allude to, where if we hold too much certainty in our very limited relative knowledge and use this relative 'knowledge' as a basis or guide for 'wisdom' for all our actions and decisions, that we can easily be led astray, and this can well lead to undesirable results.

 

This kind of brings us to the question of how then can we always act the most appropriately in all situations? Is it even possible to get there? What would guide us? I don't think there is any much chance of ever getting there through rational analysis and thought. Our minds and thinking are very limited. Our relative knowledge is also subsequently very limited. It would seem that the only chance of getting there, assuming it is even possible and not just an unreachable ideal, would have to be through some other means. If that were the case and Lao Tzu knew the means, perhaps Lao Tzu described this or hinted at this in his text. We may possibly have to read between the lines a lot more to find it however. Just throwing out some ideas on the matter. I certainly don't think there are any easy or definite answers to any of this.

 

I think it is much simpler however to just consider the question, what do we truly know for certain?

Edited July 10, 2013 by NotVoid

[NotVoid]

 

When one can do that, wisdom isn't needed.

 

 

warm regards

Aye, but now we have the problem of how do we reach this state?

As mr. Marblehead mentioned, just doing nothing isn't going to help us out in any practical way. Lao Tzu seems to speak of the sage, but how does one get to that state? Is this truly within reach, or just an ideal imagined up in some fanciful writings? I don't have any answers, just throwing out the question. Maybe this should move to another thread, but the OP seems to have dissolved into the void at this point.

[Stosh]

Well we cant drift around like that because were not blessed with the intincts of an earthworm.

That I know for certain.

and Oh yeah , you cant respond to that because that would require speaking which would employ knowlege ( generally meant) and youre not sure you exist even, so how could you be sure you arent sure of anything.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Stosh

[NotVoid]

Well we cant drift around like that because were not blessed with the intincts of an earthworm.

That I know for certain.

Aye, and earthworms can't really do much when a robin scoops them up and eats them. Is the earthworm wise? Is the robin wise? Does wisdom even have anything to do with it? If I had my choice, I would rather take steps to avoid getting eaten. However, if a robin is not trying to eat me or other people, I see no reason to interfere with the robin or the worm. The worm loses however. I now feel bad for the worm. Maybe I should help the worm, but then the robin will suffer. The more I analyze, the more I end up with quandaries. It would seem we need a very different approach if we are to have any chance of moving beyond such limitations.

[ChiDragon]

I think it is much simpler however to just consider the question, what do we truly know for certain?

It is, certainly, people do not understand how the Chinese classic was written and what they meant.

[Marblehead]

When one can do that, wisdom isn't needed.

 

 

warm regards

But you are already wise by then. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

What is tzujan in your view?

The best short description of this concept is from Wayne Wang in his "Dynamic Tao".

 

"Tzu-Jan is commonly reanslated as "nature". It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason."

 

I also like the word self-actualization.

 

 

Edit to add: And leave those worms and robins to do their own thing. Hehehe.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Marblehead