Taoism or Taoism?

[Kajenx]

Much of what you read, especially on the web, has to do with people lusting after better health, longer life, magical powers, and so on... At the risk of offending anyone, these are spiritually immature goals. They have little to do with the process and result of spiritual inquiry. Sure, we all want to be healthy and live a long time (well, most of us), and good health is certainly important to enhance and support spiritual and energetic cultivation. My point is that the methods exist for a reason, they do work for many, although one of the first things my teacher told me when I started practicing is that there are no guarantees for success.... But it is misleading to think of these practices as a simple prescription for power, sexual potency, or immortality. It is much more subtle and profound than that.

 

This is what I'm talking about more than anything. I'm not really talking about meditation of tai chi or that sort of thing because all of that seems very direct to me. It's the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me. But I'm suspecting it's not quite like that to the more devoted practitioners. Is immortality a symbol for something else? Maybe it was a belief in ancient China that we were all naturally immortal and leading unnatural lifestyles is what killed us? I dunno, I'm just trying to understand the connection.

 

I really know very little about the mystical practices, so maybe that's why I seem so ignorant.

 

As an example, I was interested in Ceremonial Magic for a while because it seemed a lot like what you guys call "cultivation". The rituals were supposed to induce different mental states and create a space for higher thinking and meeting the subconscious and etc. I'd say it was like a kind of theatrical performance for yourself - a lot like shamanism there. But I always thought they were expending a lot of effort for something that should be very easy. Why not "just do it" instead of attaching all the goals to ceremonial crutches and rituals. It doesn't have to be so difficult or complicated. Wu wei and all that. ^^

 

 

...the OP seems to have dissolved into the void at this point.

 

Haha, that would be wonderful, wouldn't it? Sadly, no, I just don't come online every day. XD

 

[NotVoid]

 

I'm not really talking about meditation of tai chi or that sort of thing because all of that seems very direct to me. It's the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me. But I'm suspecting it's not quite like that to the more devoted practitioners. Is immortality a symbol for something else? Maybe it was a belief in ancient China that we were all naturally immortal and leading unnatural lifestyles is what killed us? I dunno, I'm just trying to understand the connection.

 

I think Westerners may tend to get tripped up because they are inclined to think of 'taoism' as some very homogenous system, but what is called taoism now actually describes a wide variety of different practices and views with many different sources, and which do not necessarily have a whole lot of commonality or similarities. Also there was a wide variation in focus and themes from group to group and throughout time as well. It is not like Christianity where most groups closely follow one source (the bible) so many Christian groups have a lot of commonality. Taoism had many varied sources with widely varying focus and views. It was only later (maybe when buddhism started to be an influence in China) that some tried to piece it more together under the banner of Taoism. You then had the idea of a more coherent system, which actually wasn't really so much that at all, in my understanding. Practices of magic and divining and seeking immortality (immortality takes on a more symbolic meaning of spiritual transformation in many more modern taoist groups) probably had roots in shamanism and folk religion, and in some popular views of the time. Some Taoists might say that it all really wasn't so haphazard, that there was more commonality and purpose to it than that, and some say their systems actually pre-date Lao Tzu, but who can say? There are not a whole lot of written records found from Lao Tzu's time or earlier. Hope that clarifies it a bit more.

Edited July 23, 2013 by NotVoid

[NotVoid]

The best short description of this concept is from Wayne Wang in his "Dynamic Tao".

 

"Tzu-Jan is commonly reanslated as "nature". It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason."

 

I also like the word self-actualization.

 

 

Edit to add: And leave those worms and robins to do their own thing. Hehehe.

It sounds possibly something like what Lao Tzu was describing, but we are left with trying to figure out how to get to such a state. When our stomach is empty and maybe some of our neighbors or others want to cause harm to us, we have to be practical and find solutions, but how do we get to a state where we can take care of every day affairs and still always act in the most appropriate way in all situations we encounter? If I were Lao Tzu, and I knew a way to achieve such a state, I might very well be inclined to provide some guidance on that. Next time I read through the tao te ching I will try to look at it more from that perspective and see what stands out to me. Who knows what is hidden in there?

[rene]

NotVoid -

Aye, but now we have the problem of how do we reach this state?

~ It's only a problem if you decide that it is.

As mr. Marblehead mentioned, just doing nothing isn't going to help us out in any practical way. Lao Tzu seems to speak of the sage, but how does one get to that state?

~ If you seek to become a sage, you've already closed the door on your own face.

Is this truly within reach, or just an ideal imagined up in some fanciful writings?

 

~ It's already in the open hand; few get past grasping for it.

 

I don't have any answers, just throwing out the question.

 

~ For having no answers, your questions are plenty long-staged.

 

 

warm regards

[rene]

But you are already wise by then. Hehehe.

 

Maybe. (-:

 

The Cucumber Sage

 

[Marblehead]

It had been a long while since I read that story so I read the whole thing again.

 

Yes, wisdon can be found even in a cucumber.

[NotVoid]

NotVoid -

Aye, but now we have the problem of how do we reach this state?

 

~ It's only a problem if you decide that it is.

As mr. Marblehead mentioned, just doing nothing isn't going to help us out in any practical way. Lao Tzu seems to speak of the sage, but how does one get to that state?

 

~ If you seek to become a sage, you've already closed the door on your own face.

 

Is this truly within reach, or just an ideal imagined up in some fanciful writings?

 

~ It's already in the open hand; few get past grasping for it.

 

I don't have any answers, just throwing out the question.

 

~ For having no answers, your questions are plenty long-staged.

 

 

warm regards

Hi rene. The questions and thoughts I expressed are sincere. For some, imagination and pretense are not really so much of interest.

[shanlung]

It had been a long while since I read that story so I read the whole thing again.

 

Yes, wisdon can be found even in a cucumber.

 

Only if the cucumber is pickled.

[rene]

It had been a long while since I read that story so I read the whole thing again.

 

Yes, wisdon can be found even in a cucumber.

 

You thought Wu Ming was reflecting wisdom??

 

The point of the story is how the monks incorrectly thought so, too.

 

Guess that makes you a good monk!

 

(-:

 

 

 

warm regards

 

( @shanlung: lol )

[Marblehead]

You thought Wu Ming was reflecting wisdom??

 

The point of the story is how the monks incorrectly thought so, too.

 

Guess that makes you a good monk!

 

(-:

 

warm regards

 

( @shanlung: lol )

I said there was wisdom in the cucumber, not Wu Ming.

 

But then, Wu Ming wasn't all that lost either. He knew what he liked, and what he didn't like, and that was all he cared about. Not even the slightest desire to impress others. He slept when he was tired and ate cucumbers when he was hungry.

 

I liked his answer to the final question of the story, the either/or question. His simple reply was "Yes".

[rene]

I said there was wisdom in the cucumber, not Wu Ming.

 

But then, Wu Ming wasn't all that lost either. He knew what he liked, and what he didn't like, and that was all he cared about. Not even the slightest desire to impress others. He slept when he was tired and ate cucumbers when he was hungry.

 

I liked his answer to the final question of the story, the either/or question. His simple reply was "Yes".

 

(-:

[Stosh]

Fun story, because its preposterous ,

but it points in no direction.

[Marblehead]

Fun story, because its preposterous ,

but it points in no direction.

But that's the point Stosh - there is no direction.

[rene]

What was the preposterous part?

 

That when faced with simplicity - everyone read into it their own complexities?

 

I like the part about the contest between Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism - where they all 'won' by keeping to the source - rather than their "own" fixed direction.

 

warm regards

[Stosh]

I figure it is meant to delinate that being ignorant is better than to not be.

Wu Ming gains reputation etc for it. Though I no of no person, like that,

who gained like that in such a way.

It is amusing for its preposterous-ness , because if it were

entirely expected it would just be boring.

Being inaccurate to the real world

The story is geared either to teach a message or just to be amusing.

 

The two of yall can duke it out whether its "preposterously amusing

-with no direction" ,,,Or if its supposed to "have a message- but is not preposterous."

[Marblehead]

Yeah, even back then people were always trying to be politically (religiously) correct. It was rare to see someone who found joy is such a simple manner.

 

Don't forget to let your child out to play now and again Stosh.

 

 

[Stosh]

Who said I had a child?

Narveen just assumed that the the child I was talking about was mine, rather than that of the hawk

Edited July 11, 2013 by Stosh

[rene]

I figure it is meant to delinate that being ignorant is better than to not be.

Wu Ming gains reputation etc for it....

 

Ooops..you must have missed what he was famous for...

 

"Holding Chin-mang's note before me, I hoped and prayed that this Wu-ming, this "accidental Bodhisattva" might be the yeast my recipe seemed so much in need of."

 

and

 

"Within three years of his arrival, the stories of the "Great Bodhisattva of Han-hsin monastery" had made their way throughout the provinces of China"

 

and

 

" When Wu-ming had come before him, the Emperor said, "Throughout the land you are praised as a Bodhisattva whose mind is like the Great Void itself, yet you have not had a word to offer this assembly."

 

and

 

".Because of his fame he is greeted and cared for in all quarters with generous kindness; however, those wishing to help him on his journey usually find that they have been helped on their own."

 

and

 

lol oh hell never mind. I guess you either see it or you dont. (-:

 

warm regards

[rene]

Who said I had a child?

Narveen just assumed that the the child I was talking about was mine, rather than that of the hawk

 

maybe marblehead was talking about your inner child.

 

and sree makes all kinds of assumptions

[Marblehead]

Who said I had a child?

Narveen just assumed that the the child I was talking about was mine, rather than that of the hawk

Hehehe. You missed it Stosh. I was talking about your inner child.

[Stosh]

Hehehe. You missed it Stosh. I was talking about your inner child.

NO FAIR! Now you made me spill beans.

[Marblehead]

NO FAIR! Now you made me spill beans.

Hehehe. You'll get over it.

[Stosh]

maybe marblehead was talking about your inner child. and sree makes all kinds of assumptions

I know that! ( about narv)

But I'm not sure I see the message you do..so I probably don't,

The guy is so independent and out of sync that ironically , everything goes his way, and ironically again, it doesn't matter to him.

I'm totally out of sync with everyone, but I care about things and its not rolling my way.

I thought the bodhisattvas were those who had turned back from the gates of nirvana out of compassion so how would wu ming be one?I thought the point of an allegory was to illustrate something to explain something else, but if the illustration isn't believable, it isn't going to render the other thing credible either.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Stosh

[rene]

I know that!

But I'm not sure I see the message you do..so I probably don't,

The guy is so independent and out of sync that ironically , everything goes his way, and ironically again, it doesn't matter to him.

I'm totally out of sync with everyone, but I care about things and its not rolling my way.

I thought the bodhisattvas were those who had turned back from the gates of nirvana out of compassion so how would wu ming be one?I thought the point of an allegory was to illustrate something to explain something else, but if the illustration isn't believable, it isn't going to render the other thing credible either.

 

He wasn't, and that wasn't the point either, lol.

 

Maybe here's a better tale.

 

 

Ritual Cat

 

When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.

 

 

Edit: Here's the link to it and other great stories! Zen Stories

Edited July 12, 2013 by rene

[Stosh]

I guess I over react on that subject, though I heard something along the lines of polpot using the rationale for decapitating his society, that's stuff in books for me really, but instead maybe because its not entirely outside my own ken that rationality and wits counts for so little! So very little. What I think presents merely a gulf of misunderstanding.