Taoism or Taoism?

[doc benway]

This is what I'm talking about more than anything. I'm not really talking about meditation of tai chi or that sort of thing because all of that seems very direct to me. It's the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me. But I'm suspecting it's not quite like that to the more devoted practitioners. Is immortality a symbol for something else? Maybe it was a belief in ancient China that we were all naturally immortal and leading unnatural lifestyles is what killed us? I dunno, I'm just trying to understand the connection.

 

I really know very little about the mystical practices, so maybe that's why I seem so ignorant.

 

Sorry for not responding sooner - I haven't looked at this thread for a while.

I don't think you're ignorant at all - maybe naive.

And I mean that in the best possible way (having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature).

There is not better state to be in if you wish to approach a study or practice of Daoism (or any spiritual path).

 

I agree with you 100% when you say that "the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me."

And if that is what is important to "more devoted practitioners" I suspect that they are very likely to fail.

 

Immortality is not really a symbol for something else. It means what you think but from a different perspective.

Words fail me here.

 

The question again comes down to 'what is your own true nature?'

This is what Daoist cultivation is about, finding this out, and living it.

 

And the mind that asks and answers questions will not find the answer.

It is much too subtle and profound for language.

And when you find it, your true nature, and you see yourself and the world from that perspective, then you will understand what the Daoists mean by immortality and magical powers.

 

At least that's my view and I acknowledge that some will disagree.

[doc benway]

 

 

Is the idea of philosophical daoism simply a western construct?

 

I think I've posted here before that I've met daoist hermits in China who don't practice chanting or formal religious rites, but still call themselves daoists....

 

No surprise here. One who practices self cultivation through Daoist methods would consider themselves a Daoist.

This will incorporate varying degrees of what would be described as 'formal religious rites,' often little or none.

To these folks, the theory and philosophy are an afterthought and play little or no role in Daoist practice.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Sorry for not responding sooner - I haven't looked at this thread for a while.

I don't think you're ignorant at all - maybe naive.

And I mean that in the best possible way (having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature).

There is not better state to be in if you wish to approach a study or practice of Daoism (or any spiritual path).

 

I agree with you 100% when you say that "the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me."

And if that is what is important to "more devoted practitioners" I suspect that they are very likely to fail.

 

Immortality is not really a symbol for something else. It means what you think but from a different perspective.

Words fail me here.

 

The question again comes down to 'what is your own true nature?'

This is what Daoist cultivation is about, finding this out, and living it.

 

And the mind that asks and answers questions will not find the answer.

It is much too subtle and profound for language.

And when you find it, your true nature, and you see yourself and the world from that perspective, then you will understand what the Daoists mean by immortality and magical powers.

 

At least that's my view and I acknowledge that some will disagree.

 

Overall an excellent post Steve and what I have bolded above is well worth remembering. Though I may interpret it in a slightly different way than some people.

 

I may have more to say about this in the historical context of the Neiye, the emergence of early Chinese 'naturalism', Huanglao Daoism and the Zhuangzi at some future point, but I do not have time now.

[Marblehead]

Is the idea of philosophical daoism simply a western construct?

 

I think I've posted here before that I've met daoist hermits in China who don't practice chanting or formal religious rites, but still call themselves daoists....

Likely it is just a Western idea. I have heard that there are many Chinese who take parts of Confucianism, parts of Buddhism, and parts of Taoism to have, for them, a complete belief system.

 

But then, I would think that Lao Tzu would be classified as a Philosophical Taoist whereas Chuang Tzu would be perhaps a Mystical Taoist.

 

Mostly just different labels in order to clarify.

[doc benway]

Overall an excellent post Steve and what I have bolded above is well worth remembering. Though I may interpret it in a slightly different way than some people.

 

I may have more to say about this in the historical context of the Neiye, the emergence of early Chinese 'naturalism', Huanglao Daoism and the Zhuangzi at some future point, but I do not have time now.

Thanks Donald, I hope you do have time in the future. I will check back to see.

 

 

 

Likely it is just a Western idea. I have heard that there are many Chinese who take parts of Confucianism, parts of Buddhism, and parts of Taoism to have, for them, a complete belief system.

 

But then, I would think that Lao Tzu would be classified as a Philosophical Taoist whereas Chuang Tzu would be perhaps a Mystical Taoist.

 

Mostly just different labels in order to clarify.

Why do you call Zhuangzi mystical and not philosophical?

While his writings are more allegorical, they still speak to the intellect.

To me, mysticism would refer more to meditation, energetic cultivation, tantric practices, and so on... like Nei Yeh perhaps.

But then again, maybe I'm not reading Zhuangzi correctly.

I don't read the classics much.

[Marblehead]

Why do you call Zhuangzi mystical and not philosophical?

While his writings are more allegorical, they still speak to the intellect.

To me, mysticism would refer more to meditation, energetic cultivation, tantric practices, and so on... like Nei Yeh perhaps.

But then again, maybe I'm not reading Zhuangzi correctly.

I don't read the classics much.

Well, some people say that all I talk about is philosophy so if I present Chuang Tzu as a Mystic they will see that I can talk about mystics too. Hehehe.

 

But you are right in the way you came into this. Chuang Tzu was very light on the mysticism but we will see that mystic sid eof him as we go through the Chapters.

 

And please, read him however you read anyone else. But do join us in the Study if you get the chance.

[doc benway]

But do join us in the Study if you get the chance.

I will - I know him only through brief excerpts of parables, mostly Merton

[Marblehead]

I will - I know him only through brief excerpts of parables, mostly Merton

I'm sorry, but please!, throw away Merton. Hehehe.

 

The modified Legge version we are using is a pretty good one.

[Capt.Brian Alford]

Hello Kajenx, A man of Tao is what I call myself, I think that says everything, I follow the Way,I read the Tao Te Ching, thats all I know & thats all I need to know! I'm sure Lao Tzu would not have called him self a Taoist,its like being call a christen, its so elementary,the philosophical Taoist The religous taoist their just names! Follow the WAY, thats all!! the rest doesn't matter! Namaste