Taoism or Taoism?

[Stosh]

He wasn't, and that wasn't the point either, lol. Maybe here's a better tale.

Ritual Cat

When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.

I love that one , is the lesson the same?

[rene]

I love that one , is the lesson the same?

 

In a manner of speaking, yes, and it's about simplicity.

 

In Ritual Cat - the cat was tied up for a simple reason; later scholars created complex reasons for doing so.

 

In The Cucumber Sage - the monks were presented with simplicity (WuMing), and created all kinds of complex ideas to explain his behavior. Simplicity was again showcased in the competition between Confucianism Buddhism and Taoism... shown via (the very simple) Tao as the common source of all three, rather than each's complicated structures and rituals and claims of being the Only True Way.

 

To me, this also relates to Knowledge and Wisdom ---- Knowledge is 'stored information' and Wisdom is knowing what to do with it. Sometimes, the 'wisest' thing we can do is to not make something more complex than it is, by embracing the simplicity inherent in all things.

 

Can you be like the uncarved block? (-:

 

warm regards

[Stosh]

No I don't think I can .

[rene]

Then may all your wise choices turn out as you wish. (-:

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

So anyhow, it's morning now and life goes on.

 

Taoism vs. Taoism. Some want to be Religious Taoists, some Alchemic Taoists, and others Philosophical Taoists.

 

It's not about this vs. that but rather personal choices.

[NotVoid]

A few more thoughts on this. When I look over even just a few different translations of the tao te ching, I can see quite a bit of variation in interpretations in just those few translations. It would really seem that the tao te ching is not something that is so easily fully understandable with any degree of real certainty. I do see some passages that do seem to give at least some hints of how these 'sages' are able to achieve the states that they achieve, but when comparing one translation to the next there is also a fair bit of variation even in those few passages I was looking at, and so it seems this aspect also can be viewed in different ways. I find it interesting that Lao Tzu seems to be referring to sages from ancient times and how they guided the people in those earlier times, apparently indicating these were not at all new ideas which Lao Tzu expressed. I do not see anything that stands out to me in the tao te ching that necessarily precludes anything like religious or spiritual practices or magic or divining or immortality, or various other practices that have become associated with 'taoism' over the years. The tao te ching does seem to point out that there is the mysterious tao as source, and its natural unfolding or expression from which all things and phenomena arise. Nothing written seems to be said about whether this 'outer' expression of tao contains a 'spiritual' aspect or not, or whether there are spiritual realms or not, etc.

 

Kajenx, maybe the answer to your question is that some taoists or taoist practices focus more on aligning with or understanding 'tao' as the mysterious source, and other taoists or taoist practices focus more on aligning with and understanding tao in its natural outward expression, and making practical use of that. I know that may well still be inadequate or off the mark, but that is as best as I can suggest based on my own very limited understanding.

All the best.

 

 

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

semen retention is folk taoism.

 

You might reply -- no it's alchemy or some b.s.

 

NOPE it's folk taoism.

 

Why? If your goal is to "retain semen" then you're not practicing real meditation. haha.

 

The goal is NOT to retain semen.

 

The goal is to not create semen -- to empty the mind so to still the heart.

 

so sublimation and purification

 

or ionization

 

or creating chi energy from jing.

 

See there is jing fluid which is from evil thoughts - so why would you want to retain evil thoughts?

 

It's the evil thoughts that create semen!

 

So you are confused!!

 

Retaining semen is folk Taoism -- a popularized misconception.

 

Pretty ironic. haha.

 

You want to discuss the difference but you already are practicing folk Taoism without knowing it.

 

Probably because you mention steeping yourself first in Western occult - which is fake practices.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

I do not see anything that stands out to me in the tao te ching that necessarily precludes anything like religious or spiritual practices or magic or divining or immortality, or various other practices that have become associated with 'taoism' over the years.

 

......... ..........................

Edited July 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[rene]

Folk taoism or not,
it sure sounds like
same circus, different clowns.

 

 

It's the evil thoughts that create semen!

Edited July 12, 2013 by rene

[Rara]

I like to tell folks who have no idea what is Taoism but have heard of Zen Buddhism is that the Zen in Zen Buddhism is Taoism.

 

OH GOOD!!

 

*that moment when he realises, then brain get's in the way and says "Nope, because they're called two different things"*

 

So I wasn't going mad, these philosophies DO mirror each other. Thanks for posting this.

[Rara]

So anyhow, it's morning now and life goes on.

 

Taoism vs. Taoism. Some want to be Religious Taoists, some Alchemic Taoists, and others Philosophical Taoists.

 

It's not about this vs. that but rather personal choices.

 

Yep. I thought I was being naughty when I started bringing Buddha into the equation after knowing about the vinegar tasters painting. Then I realised....NAAAAAH, IT'S MY EFFIN' WAY MAN!!

[Stosh]

ob·vi·ate (bv-t)

tr.v. ob·vi·at·ed, ob·vi·at·ing, ob·vi·ates

To anticipate and dispose of effectively; render unnecessary

[ion]

The practices are based on interpretations or better certain peoples understanding of the "philosophy". People who came to a certain understanding applied that to a practice.

 

Semen retention is a good example. Its not written in TTC, but what is written here and there throughout the text is to remain unasserted(ive), and to bail out before climax, not to strive towards a climax etc, there is more and it goes on but one could also translate those to mean that semen should be retained or that those principles also apply to sex.

[Rara]

The practices are based on interpretations or better certain peoples understanding of the "philosophy". People who came to a certain understanding applied that to a practice.

 

Semen retention is a good example. Its not written in TTC, but what is written here and there throughout the text is to remain unasserted(ive), and to bail out before climax, not to strive towards a climax etc, there is more and it goes on but one could also translate those to mean that semen should be retained or that those principles also apply to sex.

 

What goes up, must come down.

 

I believe if you can accept this though, you should be able to not so much strive for climax, but allow such things to happen and be mindful not to let a "comedown" spoil what comes after.

 

*Disclaimer: No puns intended in this post

[Rara]

Or euphamisms, whatever

[ion]

I agree Rara. I found that I, as a male can have multiple orgasms by not letting orgasm be the climax, or not giving into the "comedown".

[Stosh]

Cycles are natural , one can enjoy the going up

and one can enjoy the going down

like the falling asleep cozy and moving on

 

picking one as good and the other as bad

isnt taoish

its bias

IMPO

[Marblehead]

picking one as good and the other as bad

isnt taoish

its bias

IMPO

Yes, but we all have biases, don't we?

[voidisyinyang]

Folk taoism or not,

it sure sounds like

same circus, different clowns.

 

 

 

 

 

See this is a projection of Western evil - two evils don't make a good.

 

That's the whole problem with Western esoteric "magic" - it's just a reverse of the Christian Platonic tradition - it does not really change anything!!

 

So that is why full lotus is the main practice for meditation - -because it enables the most efficient means to sublimate the life force energy and then to purify it by bringing it down to the heart.

 

The quote you have made of me - is directly from the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality.

 

See Westerners want to belittle this philosophy of no evil thoughts as mind celibacy - Westerners want to belittle it as just old-fashioned repressed morality.

 

NO!! It's not morality as much as it is psychophysiology!!

 

The Taoists understood psychophysiology better than modern science has yet to understand.

 

When we have thoughts focused on reproduction this creates a trigger in the brain that causes chi energy to go down the spine through the marrow and then the chi energy causes the scrotum to produce fluid to be ejaculated.

 

So retaining semen is the WRONG practice - it is folk Taoism.

 

Also for the person who says that you can have multiple orgasms without climax - the key here is no ejaculation.

 

Western science recognizes the psychophysiological difference between ejaculation and internal emission.

 

Ejaculation causes a trigger or switch to the stress sympathetic nervous system.

 

Internal emission stays in the vagus nerve and causes the dopamine build up to switch to serotonin - just as happens with the female orgasm.

 

So males need to learn to have female orgasms. Why? Because Nature is female - parthenogenesis is the basis for alchemical transformation of Nature. Males are not used in Nature - for most of life - bacteria - and then for larger life forms there is still parthenogenesis.

 

O.K. so semen retention is not correct because the semen is created as the opposite process of creating the lower tan tien.

 

the lower tan tien does not exist - it is a closed cavity - until the mind is emptied and the heart has no passion or evil thoughts - and only then does the spirit light energy cause the chi to descend to create the lower tan tien and it does so by sublimating the cavity of chi that is otherwise below the lower tan tien.

 

So this is why qigong masters are so rare - modern society is based all on male ejaculation - and so retaining semen is a tantric dirty practice - the semen is pollution for the body -- when it is not ejaculated. It's true that semen has lecithin in high levels which then feeds the brain and that with actual Emptiness meditation then the semen can be ionized and purified to create chi energy - but this is a backwards method - it is like paddling upstream.

 

To create the chi energy requires Emptiness meditation - so it can be down the slow hard way - or just from the beginning.

 

But to do it the slow hard way - it will always limit the amount of chi energy created until the Emptiness is finally embraced again as the main focus of practice.

 

This is next to impossible to do in the mundane world - which is what thetaobums is! haha.

 

So all these posts about retaining semen - they go against the real training.

 

That is why the real training is done in secret or in silence - by people who already understand this.

 

Otherwise it's just folk Taoism.

Edited July 15, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Marblehead]

Otherwise it's just folk Taoism.

But remember that Lao Tzu built his philosophy from many of the roots of folk Taoism so we really can't completely ignore it.

[Stosh]

Yes, but we all have biases, don't we?

Fair enough, Yes , we do

but considering it in the light of a greater "good bad" scenario

That one 'should' retain jing for some reason ,

is not the same as just holding back to extend the pleasure.

Even so , Its more taoish IMO to let go of the attachment

than it is to grab onto it ,perpetuate it , focus on it.

Things arise , we accept , we move on -thats the cycle its normal and natural

this is the taoish message I see

and it applies to both meditations and real world behaviors,

(if we are going to apply the message in both realms.)

[Marblehead]

No arguements or thoughts to reply with.

[Stosh]

No arguements or thoughts to reply with.

BONK!

(sound of jaw dropping)

[henro]

Though I'd post this link as another discussion point....

 

http://faculty.franklin.uga.edu/kirkland/sites/faculty.franklin.uga.edu.kirkland/files/TENN97.pdf

 

Is the idea of philosophical daoism simply a western construct?

 

I think I've posted here before that I've met daoist hermits in China who don't practice chanting or formal religious rites, but still call themselves daoists....

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Though I'd post this link as another discussion point....

 

http://faculty.franklin.uga.edu/kirkland/sites/faculty.franklin.uga.edu.kirkland/files/TENN97.pdf

 

Is the idea of philosophical daoism simply a western construct?

 

I think I've posted here before that I've met daoist hermits in China who don't practice chanting or formal religious rites, but still call themselves daoists....

 

I think I've posted here before that I've met daoist hermits in China who don't practice chanting or formal religious rites, but still call themselves daoists: But does that mean that they were practicing 'philosophical' Daoism as generally conceived by Westerners including Western Sinologists up to the 1970s?

 

The introduction to Arthur Waley's The Way and its Power was one of the first works by a Western sinologist to a start to examine what the Daodejing actually meant to the ancient Chinese. Written in the 1930s, it is still worth a read even today. Among other things it is one of the first books to bring the Guanzi and the Neiye into the picture. Waley's contention that the ancient Daoists were actually doing meditation was groundbreaking at the time.

 

I took a quick look at Kirkland's essay, while I agree with its general conclusion, he is way off in his understanding of the Western historical movements which he describes, you cannot run Protestantism, Enlightenment, and Romanticism together the way he does. Romanticism is a rejection of the Enlightenment and the Enlightenment is more the work of people reacting against Christianity in general, but Roman Catholicism in particular.

 

Even his understanding of Confucianism is incorrect because the ideal of the Sage and the achievement of Sagehood is explicitly put forward by Mencius, the second most important thinker of the Confucian school and is certainly implied even in the Analects.

 

It is possible to name names, to talk about Diderot and Holbach, to separate the Deist Voltaire from his Atheist companions, to explain why the French Freemasons would accept atheists and why the English and American ones didn't and still won't to this day. It is possible to see the beginnings of the revolt against the Enlightenment in Rousseau and how the German Romanticist Philosophers took Kant's attempt to stop the Atheism that was being promulgated through the French Encyclopedie, and used it as the philosophical basis for their own ideas and how that resonates down through Walden pond and into the hands of the Hippie movement of the 1960s, which replaced the black and white Zen of the Beats with the technicolor of 'Taoism', largely through such pop cultural phenomena as 'Mr. Natural' and, the, 'the title says it all', book, The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment.

 

In short Kirkland's historical sense is defective, but I'm not sure anyone here at the Tao Bums wants to hear the details and for now I don't have the time to write them anyway.

 

However, he does realize that the modern and especially American interpretation of Daoism, which may as well be called Taoism, is a fundamentally Romanticist interpretation and way off from how a Daoist in China would have interpreted it at anytime in the past.

 

By the way, there may be nothing wrong with American Romanticist Taoism as a way of approaching spirituality, as long as it is realized that while an ancient Chinese work is its inspiration, it has next to nothing to do with Daoism as conceived of and practiced by the Chinese, including its purported author, Laozi.

 

A recommendation of Waley's translation and his insightful introduction was implicit in what I said before. Here is an easy way to follow it up:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Its-Power-representative/dp/0802150853

 

Also an excellent overview of all of Warring States philosophy is, Disputers of the Tao by A. C. Graham. You can find it here:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Disputers-Tao-Philosophical-Argument-Ancient/dp/0812690885

 

I strongly recommend this book to anyone who is interested in what was going on at the time the Daodejing was written and who wishes to see it in historical context and not the context of The Wind in the Willows.