Pranayama science discussion

[Songtsan]

I think that basis of pranayama and its ability to generate chi is the fact that it limits the amount of oxygen available to the body, thus 'waking up' or 'shocking' the body into thinking that something is wrong, which produces an intense surge of energy (which could be used to enliven the body or break through whatever is causing the breath obstruction). The systems available keep the energy flowing at a steady state, by keeping the oxygen level lower, and thus maintaining a state of invigoration in the mind-nexus...once this energy is released, one can direct its flow to where it is needed to go, such as the inner ear (to cause tinnitus perhaps?), or the body (to cause fear reactions), or the legs (to cause running speed), or maybe the eros (to cause love chi to pump up the thymus gland)...now, what I don't understand, is why there are all these different systems out there doing the same exact thing? Do they really have to compete, or are they all the same?

 

I'd like to know.

 

Been doing pranayama off and on for last 20 years or so, and have never seen any difference in the systems, but my mentality might be flawed. Perhaps different systems invigorate the lung spaces better than others? I wonder...does anyone know what the top dog system is?

 

Oh yeah: Michael Jackson used to sleep in a super expensive oxygen deprivation chamber thingamabobber which kept the oxygen levels lower at night when he sleeped - it was supposed to make you healthier. Isn't that interesting? Oh yeah, runners like to go to high elevations to train so that when competition time comes they are super mutant oxygen efficiency machines.

 

Maybe someone should invent some kind of device you just place over your nose that shuts it part way so that its harder to breathe.

 

Know what 'Wu chi' means? Exhaust the inexhaustible, which basically states that if you limit yourself to something necessary and usually available, the body will find ways to make itself more flexible, thus when O2 is deprived, you get better and better at needing less O2, and you keep generating that extra ZAP! that pushes your system to thrive. That's why I think all these different systems are basically the same.

 

Can anyone correlate me?

Edited July 4, 2013 by Songtsan

[Flolfolil]

have you seen the biology of kundalini website? i think you would enjoy it

[Jetsun]

There is a lot of scientific research done on the Pranyama called Sudarshan Kriya http://aolresearch.org/pdf/other/Richard_Brown.pdf one of the main benefits comes from vagal nerve stimulation

 

http://ru.artofliving.org/sudarshan-kriya-research

Edited July 4, 2013 by Jetsun

[Songtsan]

have you seen the biology of kundalini website? i think you would enjoy it

 

yes...she has good points, but a lot of misinformation too (don't we all!) I haven't ever read the whole thing...I will have to get around to it one day

[Songtsan]

There is a lot of scientific research done on the Pranyama called Sudarshan Kriya http://aolresearch.org/pdf/other/Richard_Brown.pdf one of the main benefits comes from vagal nerve stimulation

 

http://ru.artofliving.org/sudarshan-kriya-research

 

thanks - I will check it out...

[Flolfolil]

ever since i started being able to feel the vagus nerve i have had more difficulty controlling head pressure

[ChiDragon]

 

I think that basis of pranayama and its ability to generate chi is the fact that it limits the amount of oxygen available to the body, thus 'waking up' or 'shocking' the body into thinking that something is wrong, which produces an intense surge of energy (which could be used to enliven the body or break through whatever is causing the breath obstruction). The systems available keep the energy flowing at a steady state, by keeping the oxygen level lower, and thus maintaining a state of invigoration in the mind-nexus...once this energy is released, one can direct its flow to where it is needed to go, such as the inner ear (to cause tinnitus perhaps?), or the body (to cause fear reactions), or the legs (to cause running speed), or maybe the eros (to cause love chi to pump up the thymus gland)...now, what I don't understand, is why there are all these different systems out there doing the same exact thing? Do they really have to compete, or are they all the same?

 

I'd like to know.

 

Can anyone correlate me?

 

Songtsan.....

You have raised some interesting questions which I do have the scientific explanations for them. However, I can only go over one at a time, slowly, to get my point across. All these issues had been a major controversies in my arguments with the members here in the forum. Unfortunately, most of the members do not raise questions like you do to present a valid argument.

 

Anyway, regarding to:

"its ability to generate chi is the fact that it limits the amount of oxygen available to the body,"

 

Based on the "cell respiration" in modern science, it is the amount of oxygen in the body which limits its ability to generate chi. Instead of the other way around as you have stated.

 

The biochemical energy formula is:

glucose + oxygen --> H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

 

You will see that oxygen is the dominated factor, at the left of the formula, to generate the energy at the right. Indeed, oxygen was obtained from breathing, that is why breathing is so important in the Martial arts industry. Especially, in Chi Kung and Nei Kung. Furthermore, can you see that no energy will be produced if there is no oxygen at the left side of the formula.....???

 

Edited July 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Songtsan]

ever since i started being able to feel the vagus nerve i have had more difficulty controlling head pressure

 

it's possible that you may simply be becoming more sensitive overall to all of your nervous system. Generally head pressure, if it's not due to muscle tension (neck muscles, scalp muscles, trigger points, etc.), will be due to too much energy in head area (excess Yang chi). Drug use can also contribute. You can always focus on sending energy downwards - this should ameliorate.

[Songtsan]

 

Songtsan.....

You have raised some interesting questions which I do have the scientific explanations for them. However, I can only go over one at a time, slowly, to get my point across. All these issues had been a major controversies in my arguments with the members here in the forum. Unfortunately, most of the members do not raise questions like you do to present a valid argument.

 

Anyway, regarding to:

"its ability to generate chi is the fact that it limits the amount of oxygen available to the body,"

 

Based on the "cell respiration" in modern science, it is the amount of oxygen in the body which limits its ability to generate chi. Instead of the other way around as you have stated.

 

The biochemical energy formula is:

glucose + oxygen --> H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

 

You will see that oxygen is the dominated factor, at the left of the formula, to generate the energy at the right. Indeed, oxygen was obtained from breathing, that is why breathing is so important in the Martial arts industry. Especially, in Chi Kung and Nei Kung. Furthermore, can you see that no energy will be produced if there is no oxygen at the left side of the formula.....???

 

 

I see your point, but the Krebs cycle + mitochondrial cycle (electron transport system) produces energy as ATP, which is the bodies root source of energy.

 

A person can learn to hold their breath for at least 5 minutes, and people have been known to enter deep states of meditation where they breath only a few times per minute and very shallowly at that. I don't disagree in the importance of oxygen, but I am merely conjecturing that pranayama itself may not directly produce energy only via improved O2 absorption; what it might also do is indirectly produce energy through activation of the carbon dioxide initiated fight or flight response.

 

Here is something to try - buy some of that canned oxygen that they sell to weight lifters/exercisers now - all sorts of brands for it between $10-20 a bottle. Use some of that and see how you feel. Next, try to hold your breath for an extremely extended period of time and see what you feel like when the panic attack starts setting in after you reach that point where the CO2 induced activation of the amygdala sets in. You will see that both of these methods will give one energy - one is just a feeling of extra strength and muscle power - the other is strength through the bodies fight or flight reactions. It may be that it works through both ways, and that those who devotedly practice pranayama become more efficient O2 metabolizers through these methods, as well as more resistant to CO2 induced panic attacks, thus lessening fear based fight or flight effects.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Songtsan

[Flolfolil]

yeah recently i smoked pot everyday for two months straight also. that is probably what really caused the pressure and the recent depression

[Flolfolil]

i saw that canned oxygen in a convenience store in Poughkeepsie Ny and immediately assumed it was for getting high. But i decided to humor them and ask what it was for and i got the answer, "There are some places in the world where there is no oxygen"

[Songtsan]

i saw that canned oxygen in a convenience store in Poughkeepsie Ny and immediately assumed it was for getting high. But i decided to humor them and ask what it was for and i got the answer, "There are some places in the world where there is no oxygen"

 

that's funny! Yeah supposedly it gives you a real energy rush...never tried it, but I imagine it would work. I think the combination of getting used to lower O2 levels (and higher CO2 levels in arterial blood), combined with having suddenly high O2 levels would make one a superstar when it comes to sports applications.

 

Maybe the best pranayamas rely on both increasing the CO2 levels, AND increasing O2 levels at the same time. Increased CO2 levels acidifies the blood, but you can actually get high off CO2, as long as the right amount of O2 is in your blood - some psychonauts do this: they get a CO2 tank, with a gas mixer, pair it up with O2, and because the O2 level is normal, you cant suffocate, but because the CO2 level is so high, the body thinks it's dying and you basically start tripping and even have a pseudo-near death experience. It sounds really cool actually.

[sheng zhen]

Ive been looking into this recently and have realized that the breathing function is not about O2, but CO2. If you breathe fast or slow, deep or shallow, the oxygen saturation is still 96-98%. But CO2 fluctuates a lot. Also, take into consideration the oxygen cascade - only minimal amouts of the avilable oxygen is actually used by the mitochondria.

Given that CO2 is a vasodilator (increase bloodflow) we can understand how inceased CO2 levels (by slow breathing) create sensations like warm flowing energy (chi?) through the body and limbs. There is a lot more to CO2 that gives a whole new perspective on our breathing function.

[Songtsan]

Ive been looking into this recently and have realized that the breathing function is not about O2, but CO2. If you breathe fast or slow, deep or shallow, the oxygen saturation is still 96-98%. But CO2 fluctuates a lot. Also, take into consideration the oxygen cascade - only minimal amouts of the avilable oxygen is actually used by the mitochondria.

Given that CO2 is a vasodilator (increase bloodflow) we can understand how inceased CO2 levels (by slow breathing) create sensations like warm flowing energy (chi?) through the body and limbs. There is a lot more to CO2 that gives a whole new perspective on our breathing function.

 

You are a God.

[ChiDragon]

I see your point, but the Krebs cycle + mitochondrial cycle (electron transport system) produces energy as ATP, which is the bodies root source of energy.

 

A person can learn to hold their breath for at least 5 minutes, and people have been known to enter deep states of meditation where they breath only a few times per minute and very shallowly at that. I don't disagree in the importance of oxygen, but I am merely conjecturing that pranayama itself may not directly produce energy only via improved O2 absorption; what it might also do is indirectly produce energy through activation of the carbon dioxide initiated fight or flight response.

 

I am glad that you have some basic knowledge about the "cell respiration". Anyway, in the mitochondrial cycle (electron transport system) produces energy as ATP is correct but only when oxygen is present. Without oxygen, the whole process only produce four molecules of ATP per glucose, but two were used in the process which leaves only two for the body to perform the external function. With the continuous supply of oxygen, 36 molecules of ATP were produced in the electron transport cycle.

 

A person can learn to hold their breath for at least 5 minutes or more depends how much oxygen can one breathe in one inhalation. The greater the amount will last longer before the next inhalation. During the 5 minute duration, the oxygen were using to manufacture the ATP to sustain life. After the full amount of oxygen was used, the amount of waste gas of carbon dioxide were detected by the CO2 sensor and demand for more oxygen. Thus exhalation will take place to get rid of the CO2, then inhale for more oxygen and the breathing cycle repeats.

 

People learn to breathe slow and deep is known as Chi Kung, the ultimate method of breathing.

[Songtsan]

I am glad that you have some basic knowledge about the "cell respiration". Anyway, in the mitochondrial cycle (electron transport system) produces energy as ATP is correct but only when oxygen is present. Without oxygen, the whole process only produce four molecules of ATP per glucose, but two were used in the process which leaves only two for the body to perform the external function. With the continuous supply of oxygen, 36 molecules of ATP were produced in the electron transport cycle.

 

A person can learn to hold their breath for at least 5 minutes or more depends how much oxygen can one breathe in one inhalation. The greater the amount will last longer before the next inhalation. During the 5 minute duration, the oxygen were using to manufacture the ATP to sustain life. After the full amount of oxygen was used, the amount of waste gas of carbon dioxide were detected by the CO2 sensor and demand for more oxygen. Thus exhalation will take place to get rid of the CO2, then inhale for more oxygen and the breathing cycle repeats.

 

People learn to breathe slow and deep is known as Chi Kung, the ultimate method of breathing.

 

I know - its the final part of the ETC...I am not arguing with you on this...trust me I had the Krebs cycle + ETC drilled into my head more than once. I am not arguing the importance of O2, I am simply saying that pranayama is really not about O2 as much as everything thinks. It is actually quite easy to get all the oxygen one needs through even shallow breathing. If O2 absorption was all that mattered, we could all just use the short-cut of getting an oxygen tank to get our chi development. It's not about that, it's about something else - including, but probably not limited to, stressing the system in others ways, such as raising CO2 levels in the blood, causing some type of adaptation response...

[ChiDragon]

If O2 absorption was all that mattered, we could all just use the short-cut of getting an oxygen tank to get our chi development.

 

Have you aware of this.....???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

Edited July 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Songtsan]

 

Have you aware of this.....???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

 

oh yeah...but the normal % of O2 in the air is around 18% - and they are talking about really high percentages - greater than 50% usually - not something you would run into normally. That also just goes to prove my point, that the body is used to having normal stable amounts of O2, and doesn't really need excess. People who live at high altitudes may even tend to live longer on average - and have less cardiovascular disease. Please don't think I am discounting the importance of O2 intake. I am simply stating that it isn't the whole piece of the pie. The body actually controls its own O2 pretty closely - different parts of the brain constantly monitor the level and will increase inhalation frequency, tidal volume, etc. These include the pneumotaxic center and apneustic center. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumotaxic_center So I am basically stating, yes - I believe pranayama is more about CO2 levels than O2 levels. I would love to be proved wrong - I am not attached to being right, but I will need some real scientific evidence to the contrary.

[ChiDragon]

oh yeah...but the normal % of O2 in the air is around 18% - and they are talking about really high percentages - greater than 50% usually - not something you would run into normally. That also just goes to prove my point, that the body is used to having normal stable amounts of O2, and doesn't really need excess. People who live at high altitudes may even tend to live longer on average - and have less cardiovascular disease. Please don't think I am discounting the importance of O2 intake. I am simply stating that it isn't the whole piece of the pie. The body actually controls its own O2 pretty closely - different parts of the brain constantly monitor the level and will increase inhalation frequency, tidal volume, etc. These include the pneumotaxic center and apneustic center. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumotaxic_center So I am basically stating, yes - I believe pranayama is more about CO2 levels than O2 levels. I would love to be proved wrong - I am not attached to being right, but I will need some real scientific evidence to the contrary.

 

I do agree that the normal % of O2 in the air is around 18%, but it is not how much oxygen in the air. It is rather how much can one be breathed into the body by a breathing method. btw how do you justify that you believe pranayama is more about CO2 levels than O2 levels.......???

[Songtsan]

 

I do agree that the normal % of O2 in the air is around 18%, but it is not how much oxygen in the air. It is rather how much can one be breathed into the body by a breathing method. btw how do you justify that you believe pranayama is more about CO2 levels than O2 levels.......???

 

Didn't you read my other posts in this thread? It's from personal practice, plus analysis...having felt what it is like to do pranayama and compared it to what it is like to nearly suffocate, I can see the relationship. There was also another guy who posted who agrees with me up above. I need to go do some research online though.

[ChiDragon]

Didn't you read my other posts in this thread? It's from personal practice, plus analysis...having felt what it is like to do pranayama and compared it to what it is like to nearly suffocate, I can see the relationship. There was also another guy who posted who agrees with me up above. I need to go do some research online though.

 

Yes, I did read it. It doesn't mean it is true even though another guy agrees with you. The same question applies because what you had been saying contradicts the "cell respiration" process.

[Songtsan]

 

Yes, I did read it. It doesn't mean it is true even though another guy agrees with you. The same question applies because what you had been saying contradicts the "cell respiration" process.

 

I haven't yet stated it as fact...it's simply a working hypothesis. How is what I am saying contradicting the cell respiration process? Are you speaking of the O2 as being the final electron acceptor in the ETC, and that if O2 is deficient the cell respiration process slows down? If so, remember that there are other sources of ATP such as the Creatine kinase cycle, lactic acid cycle (AKA Cori), alanine cycle, and gluconeogenesis from glycerol.

 

Also, I want to remind you that I already agree that O2 saturation of arterial blood is certainly a significant contributor to energy levels...all I am saying is that CO2 also has a significant role as well, that may supersede the O2. Who knows? Have scientists actually studied pranayama? I haven't searched yet, I have had other things on my plate lately. Everyone knows that when you start a difficult pranayama such as alternate nostril breathing, your ability to perform adequately improves over time. This can be both to improved O2 regulation, improved capillarization, improvements in aerobic/abnearobic enzyme amounts and other important substrates, physiological adapatations, etc. The same would also apply to the body also adapting to higher CO2 levels in various ways, allowing one to go further as practice progresses. At this time, since I haven't looked into the science of it yet, this is all on the back burner.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Songtsan

[ChiDragon]

I haven't yet stated it as fact...it's simply a working hypothesis. How is what I am saying contradicting the cell respiration process? Are you speaking of the O2 as being the final electron acceptor in the ETC, and that if O2 is deficient the cell respiration process slows down? If so, remember that there are other sources of ATP such as the Creatine kinase cycle, lactic acid cycle (AKA Cori), alanine cycle, and gluconeogenesis from glycerol.

 

"if O2 is deficient the cell respiration process slows down?"

No, it doesn't slow down but it stops producing ATP. Creatine kinase cycle, lactic acid cycle (AKA Cori) took place before the ETC. btw in the lactic acid cycle only produce four molecules of ATP, as I had indicated before only two ATP left for the external function of the body.

Edited July 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[sheng zhen]

Here is one very interesting research article that confirmes a lot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2887152/

[Songtsan]

Here is one very interesting research article that confirmes a lot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2887152/

 

Awesome article...I am glad you took the time to go research it. I am basically convinced in the role CO2 has to play in pranayama but have still not taken the time to do any actual research besides contemplate it with the knowledge already in my brain. Thank you Sheng Zhen for your assistance. And thank you Chidragon for your insistence on making me think more deeply about the issue. I am leaving the website, taking a long break. But if I come to any more definite conclusions, or come across further research that would shed some more light on the subject, I will come back and post in this thread.