Lower Dantien and the Elixir fields

[Songtsan]

Preface: When dealing with spiritual issues, I think it is best to understand what you are about before you go exploring, unless you have a really good teacher (which most of us don't). So while it's OK to read books, etc. don't you think it's time you stood up and asked yourself, "How does all of this really work?" By that I mean REALLY work. Not some twilight language, not some secret doctrine dealing with wheels and flowers and stuff. No snow studded mountains, etc. etc. What happens is this: You don't understand what you are doing yet you do it anyways, and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. When it doesn't you say, "Man this system sucks!" Then move on to the next one. What usually happens is that the system you are using DID work, but it only worked for the person who found it, as they didn't really know what they were doing and simply stumbled upon it magically (maybe they had a good teacher - most of us don't!). So when everyone understands it from a WESTERN perspective, maybe us westerners can get ahead of the game for once, instead of being left in the dust. Anyways, on to the project:

 

Dantien elixir fields...contains the energy we cycle down through front of thorax (chest cavity) by way of the vagus nerve channels, which are Googleble if you'd like to check them out. These are the Yin channels (and of course the spinal nerve is the Yang or governor channel). If you look at a picture of the vagus nerve, you can see that it bifurcates (branches out) in the stomach wall lining, right about where the DANTIEN (nerve plexus) is located (now isn't that interesting? Also, please Google the 'enteric nervous system' AKA 'second brain). Do you see what Ima sayin'? There is a physical correlate for everything in your books you are reading. I don't care what language it's in, or whether it's hardcover or paperback. These things are works of fiction. The authors didn't care whether it worked their way or another way, they just wanted to get the secret out, that they had discovered on their own (without knowing it - they only learned it - like someone who drives a car but doesn't know how the car works inside). It was passed down the line for generations just like this. So, what's next? Time for science to get on the bandwagon? I think so!

 

What I want to know is, and I still don't fully understand, is how the dantien stores extra chi-force (bioelectrical energy), as it seems that it couldn't just hang out there aimlessly wandering around. It could be possible that it is stored in some kind of chemical substrate (perhaps gel-like substance like amrita? I don't know)...batteries work in a similar fashion, they each contain certain percentages of different chemicals, and by opening them up, you find that they are just elements (or molecules - I'd have to go Google how they work nowadays)...basically what i am saying is this - that there could be some kind of juice in the stomach which can hold electrical charge. But my thought project stops there, as I am perplexed on how this would work. Wouldn't the stuff get moved into the small intestine? I am going to have to do more research, but I am aiming to figure datshit out. Hopefully someone else has an idea.

 

Before someone tells me to shut up and just do it, please realize I am researching this for altruistic reasons as I would like more people to believe that it works, and we westerners have been mind-molded to believe in science first and spirituality second (on average). If we could get people to start learning this stuff in school, people would be healthier and less attached to things like fast cars, etc. because they would all have their own pleasure palaces to explore (which they do now, but they don't know it).

 

So there! All you arguers - keep your arguments down below in your dantien - don't waste your time because I am not going to go there.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Songtsan

[Apech]

"that there could be some kind of juice in the stomach which can hold electrical charge."

 

have you looked at chyle?

[Songtsan]

"that there could be some kind of juice in the stomach which can hold electrical charge."

 

have you looked at chyle?

 

hmm...never thought of that. I was thinking about it all night and I was wondering if it could be stored as some type of standing wave pattern perhaps other places besides lower dan tien? Maybe all over body in various places (nexuses). It's a possible-probability and actually the thing that makes the most sense to me today. Further updates soon.

[Apech]

hmm...never thought of that. I was thinking about it all night and I was wondering if it could be stored as some type of standing wave pattern perhaps other places besides lower dan tien? Maybe all over body in various places (nexuses). It's a possible-probability and actually the thing that makes the most sense to me today. Further updates soon.

 

 

the governing and conception vessel are storage also according to Dr. Yang.

[Songtsan]

Yeah, in some ways standing waves make sense, and in some ways chemical storage makes sense...for neigong and chi emission in martial applications, it would seem to be a quicker way to release energy, as chemical conversion to energy would take some time vs. standing wave emission. On the other hand, I remember that some of the Shaolin monks, etc. would take some time to meditate before emitting large amounts of chi, as in Red Sand Palm technique, which might be related to internal efforts to convert chemical battery into electrical force....I will keep up the exploration.

[Songtsan]

the governing and conception vessel are storage also according to Dr. Yang.

 

Energy cannot stand still though - so it must be a continuous circling.

[doc benway]

I think the conundrum is related to taking too dualistic approach to the question.

This is to be investigated through practice and direct experience.

Intellect doesn't help much, though it's hard to convince the intellect that it is not needed... it would have us think otherwise!

[joeblast]

chemically is of course one way energy configures itself, but songstan...consider the word vortex

[Apech]

Energy cannot stand still though - so it must be a continuous circling.

 

 

What about static charge/batteries? Energy doesn't have to be kinetic it can be potential.

[Songtsan]

I think the conundrum is related to taking too dualistic approach to the question.

This is to be investigated through practice and direct experience.

Intellect doesn't help much, though it's hard to convince the intellect that it is not needed... it would have us think otherwise!

 

I wonder if you read my post - all teachings require some theory - and I aim to make a new and improved theory. please keep in mind that while I am an avid practitioner of the arts, and have experienced almost every aspect that can be experienced over my time, I am also a researcher/scientist, and this too is my passion. My arrogance has taken me far. I intend to trust it until the beautiful end, as its whats kept me going in the long run. Trust not the thing that moves you not, trust that which moves you far.

[Songtsan]

chemically is of course one way energy configures itself, but songstan...consider the word vortex

 

Vortex = good...similar to standing wave...i was considering it as a rapidly fluctuating loop that moves in circular patterns, but vortex is another good simile. Talk more about what you think - you might assist me in my efforts more than you think.

[Songtsan]

What about static charge/batteries? Energy doesn't have to be kinetic it can be potential.

 

That would equal chemical storage, right? It has to be stored somewhere - I believe in ionization effects. I just want to know where the extra electrons have moved to.

[ChiDragon]

Preface: When dealing with spiritual issues, I think it is best to understand what you are about before you go exploring, unless you have a really good teacher (which most of us don't). So while it's OK to read books, etc. don't you think it's time you stood up and asked yourself, "How does all of this really work?" By that I mean REALLY work. Not some twilight language, not some secret doctrine dealing with wheels and flowers and stuff. No snow studded mountains, etc. etc. What happens is this: You don't understand what you are doing yet you do it anyways, and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. When it doesn't you say, "Man this system sucks!" Then move on to the next one. What usually happens is that the system you are using DID work, but it only worked for the person who found it, as they didn't really know what they were doing and simply stumbled upon it magically (maybe they had a good teacher - most of us don't!). So when everyone understands it from a WESTERN perspective, maybe us westerners can get ahead of the game for once, instead of being left in the dust. Anyways, on to the project:

 

Songtsan....

You are a gentle person and a scholar. What you said is only half true about the WESTERNER perspective. Unfortunately, most unscientific oriented Chinese are brainwashed with the same ancient ideas. Sorry to say, these contaminated ideas were translated and transposed spreading around the world. Most people tend to accept what they were told without a second thought and start looking for the illusive sense of thing. For example, when someone said that "Chi" is energy, then people start looking for energy with all kinds of imagination. It seems that if something doesn't fit, let's hammer it to fit and getting farther and farther away from the main theme of the subject matter.

 

I had tried once to explain what the Taoist alchemy was all about. However, I was afraid that I will be shot down by some strong believers with their preconceived idea already. Fortunately, I am glad that an opened-mind westerner, like you, comes along to give me some lead way to relieve my long time suffocation. I hope someone will agree with the original thoughts and come to the truth of the matter about the Taoist alchemy.

 

Nowadays, people around the world, including some educated Chinese, are coming up with some semi-scientific knowledge to explain the ancient myths by using the hammer-to-fit method. Indeed, it was very effective way and convincing with more and more illusions were added for the diversion.

 

Thank you very much for opening a can of worms.......

Edited July 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[adept]

What if chi is not physical at all ?

After many years of practice and meditation, my take on it, is that is a mental/mind/awareness energy.

What if the dantian has no fixed location ?

It exists only when awareness is placed there ?

Chi = mind ?

Just my observations.

[joeblast]

Vortex = good...similar to standing wave...i was considering it as a rapidly fluctuating loop that moves in circular patterns, but vortex is another good simile. Talk more about what you think - you might assist me in my efforts more than you think.

juxtaposition of potentials, push/pull, everything has its duration, extent, resonance(s)

 

That would equal chemical storage, right? It has to be stored somewhere - I believe in ionization effects. I just want to know where the extra electrons have moved to.

binding/lattice energy

[Songtsan]

juxtaposition of potentials, push/pull, everything has its duration, extent, resonance(s)

 

binding/lattice energy

 

It's probably much like the way the gated ion channels work i am thinking...or nerve potentials work with the ion gradients, I am just not sure of the actual location and means...funny thing is that many of the older style batteries worked with Na+ and something else I cannot recall of the top of my head. Ion gradients in the nervous tissue also use Na+ as well as Potassium and something else I am not remembering....I think its probably ionic, but where do the ions stay at, and in what type of gradient format?

[Songtsan]

Songtsan....

You are a gentle person and a scholar. What you said is only half true about the WESTERNER perspective. Unfortunately, most unscientific oriented Chinese are brainwashed with the same ancient ideas. Sorry to say, these contaminated ideas were translated and transposed spreading around the world. Most people tend to accept what they were told without a second thought and start looking for the illusive sense of thing. For example, when someone said that "Chi" is energy, then people start looking for energy with all kinds of imagination. It seems that if something doesn't fit, let's hammer it to fit and getting farther and farther away from the main theme of the subject matter.

 

I had tried once to explain what the Taoist alchemy was all about. However, I was afraid that I will be shot down by some strong believers with their preconceived idea already. Fortunately, I am glad that an opened-mind westerner, like you, comes along to give me some lead way to relieve my long time suffocation. I hope someone will agree with the original thoughts and come to the truth of the matter about the Taoist alchemy.

 

Nowadays, people around the world, including some educated Chinese, are coming up with some semi-scientific knowledge to explain the ancient myths by using the hammer-to-fit method. Indeed, it was very effective way and convincing with more and more illusions were added for the diversion.

 

Thank you very much for opening a can of worms.......

 

...more! what do you know? Tell it!

[Songtsan]

What if chi is not physical at all ?

After many years of practice and meditation, my take on it, is that is a mental/mind/awareness energy.

What if the dantian has no fixed location ?

It exists only when awareness is placed there ?

Chi = mind ?

Just my observations.

 

Everything exists in all dimensions somehow or other...chi is everywhere they say...how can it be so far away that we could never find it out? I think dantien is an area - not a spot - probably about the size of a peach or more...the lower one that is...a nerve nexus...did any of you guys look up the enteric nervous system yet? If not...you should!

[Songtsan]

It's not a onesizefitsall. The developed LDT can be as big as your whole body. So can your middle dan tien. Depends on one's practice, and the quantity and quality of that practice. But I don't need to telly you that.

 

That makes sense...I can imagine it as a field...but there are definitely going to be hotspots within the webwork...areas that are similar to node points...and these are most likely going to be, or be correlated with, the nerve plexuses. When one achieves the Greater Kan and Li (equivalent to kundalini awakening) and the major orbits are accomplished, one then works on the small orbits throughout the rest of the body - this would probably essentially be expanding the field to the entire framework. The nerve plexuses would be the nodal anchors...what do you think?