Are all paths really valid?

[skydog]

So much logic...why?

 

ah

 

yh

[Seeker of Wisdom]

So much logic...why?

 

ah

 

yh

Because it's a useful guide. It has a place, it shouldn't be entirely disregarded just because we can't get liberation by logic.

 

If a logical argument is sound, it's sound and we should act in line with it. If logic proves something relevant to cultivation, surely as cultivators we should pay attention.

 

Thinking has a place. It's a very helpful tool, I don't understand why people are afraid of it. Clinging to the intellect is a problem, but does that mean we shouldn't use our intellect? Isn't that cutting off our thumbs to cure a hangnail? How often do animals with nearly no intellect to cling to become Buddhas or Immortals?

 

The real issue here is surely whose arguments are correct, and if so who should be cultivating differently, and how, for better progress.

[skydog]

Because it's a useful guide. It has a place, it shouldn't be entirely disregarded just because we can't get liberation by logic.

 

If a logical argument is sound, it's sound and we should act in line with it. If logic proves something relevant to cultivation, surely as cultivators we should pay attention.

 

Thinking has a place. It's a very helpful tool, I don't understand why people are afraid of it. Clinging to the intellect is a problem, but does that mean we shouldn't use our intellect? Isn't that cutting off our thumbs to cure a hangnail? How often do animals with nearly no intellect to cling to become Buddhas or Immortals?

 

The real issue here is surely whose arguments are correct, and if so who should be cultivating differently, and how, for better progress.

 

I dont agree with your Op though

 

sincerely

 

Me

 

I dont want to be a buddha, or an immortal

 

Personally I think all these people so scared of living, they just want to escape their self created world of doom to get enlightenment is just plain negative.

 

Its close to psycopathic in my opinion

 

Why not just be happy now, have a laugh, have a play.

 

Open your heart.

 

Thats when the wisdom comes

 

All this talk about "prajna" and "shamatha" meditation and seriousness makes me feel ill

Edited July 12, 2013 by skydog

[Seeker of Wisdom]

That's fine. I'm not too bothered whether people agree, so long as they thought about it. Best wishes.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

OK, I've said a lot here. Any more would probably just be repetition and wasted time, so I am done on this thread. Best of luck on your paths, everybody.

[Jetsun]

I look for what gets results Jetsun.

 

The amount of people pursuing these Buddhist paths is exponentially larger than are pursuing paths like mo pai.

 

I am not seeing any of these guys get (what I consider to be) real results.

 

 

I get the impression that you require different evidence of real results than I do. I have met Buddhists who exhibited signs of real results yet it is not something easily measured through science, but I completely trust my own personal experience, judgement and intuition around it. I have also met people who follow what you would probably call New Age paths have extraordinary results. Also it is true that I have met Buddhists who have achieved nothing except a new funny name and an extra mask to wear with their new robes and met New Agers who are straight out deluded con artists.

 

I believe there are living working lineages and teachers within these traditions and outside of any tradition which get results. But whether they lead to the result of the end of rebirth is difficult to determine for obvious reasons.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Not my cup of tea, thanks anyway.

 

 

I'm guessing 'practice A' is supposed to be Buddhism and 'practice B' is supposed to be mo pai.

Both are structured, both explained, both have clear milestones, both have a game plan... as I've said, the 9 stages of shamatha and the 9 jhanas, realisation of the 3 marks producing stream entry, dropping of various fetters to progress to once-return, non-return and arhatship, then the Bodhisattva bhumis, and Buddhahood.

If that's not a clear game plan and milestones, well I don't know what is!

I don't know much about mo pai, but you probably think it's so much more successful because their goals differ in difficulty, and you're measuring them based on physical transformation. I won't go on and on about realisation being a much better measure of success, because clearly that's something we simply won't agree on.

However, if you define a path aimed at Buddhahood or Immortalhood as unsuccessful based on people rarely attaining it, that's an unreasonable measure.

It's easier to physically transform than mentally transform, so of course a path like mo pai will have a higher number of practitioners reaching its goal in a given period than a path like Buddhism. What you are ignoring is the difference in goals, one is a high level of physical transformation and one is the summit of existence.

What you are demanding of Buddhism is that it advances people from normal humans into the highest form of being in one life.

Good luck!

We aren't aiming for some siddhis or physical transformations, we are aiming for something absolutely inconceivable, mind like fire unbound, trikaya, we are aiming to become Buddhas or Immortals (same thing, don't mistake someone with a few siddhis as an Immortal) who would make every being in this galaxy combined look like an ant and a supernova like a damp squib.

So if someone only becomes a Buddha/Immortal on the earth once in eons, don't take that as a problem with a path. Take it as a sign of the height of the mountain Buddhism, Taoism, and other fully valid paths leads up.

[Thunder_Gooch]

It shouldn't be difficult, it should be pretty cut and dry. Just because someone is old, sounds wise and dedicated their life to a practice does not mean you should listen to them.

 

 

 

 

I get the impression that you require different evidence of real results than I do. I have met Buddhists who exhibited signs of real results yet it is not something easily measured through science, but I completely trust my own personal experience, judgement and intuition around it. I have also met people who follow what you would probably call New Age paths have extraordinary results. Also it is true that I have met Buddhists who have achieved nothing except a new funny name and an extra mask to wear with their new robes and met New Agers who are straight out deluded con artists.

I believe there are living working lineages and teachers within these traditions and outside of any tradition which get results. But whether they lead to the result of the end of rebirth is difficult to determine for obvious reasons.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

The real issue here is surely whose arguments are correct, and if so who should be cultivating differently, and how, for better progress.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"How long has your guru been teaching?"

 

"Well, uh, over thirty years."

 

"And how many of his students have achieved enlightenment?"

 

"Well, uh..."

 

"That you know of personally?"

 

"Well, uh, I never..."

 

"That you've heard of?"

 

"It's not"

 

"That there were rumors of?"

 

"I don't think..."

 

"What is it they're doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment they're promoting - what is it?"

 

"Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically."

 

"And in thirty years they've never held someone up and said, 'Look at this guy! He's enlightened and we got him there!' In thirty years, they don't have one? Don't you think they should have, like, an entire army of enlightened guys to show off by now?"

 

"Well, it's not..."

 

"After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers, they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking, don't you think? I'm not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I'm just asking as a consumer, or a consumer's advocate. Don't you think it's reasonable to ask to know a teacher's success rate? The proof is in the pudding, right? Didn't you ask them about the fruit of their teachings when you started with them?"

 

"Well, that's not..."

 

"Don't you think it's reasonable to ask? They're in the enlightenment business, aren't they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have something else going?"

 

"Nooo, but they..."

 

"If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual organizations delivered as promised, don't you suppose that the first statistic listed under each organization would be success rating? Like, here are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization five years ago and here's where they are today. For instance, thirty-one have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent - that's a number you can compare. But this organization of yours would have big fat goose egg, wouldn't they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of thousands - millions, probably. Am I wrong?

 

- Jed McKenna - 'Spiritual Enlightenment:The Damnedest Thing'

[Ish]

Practice A: 500 million adherents, unstructured program of meditation, no real system of development, no milestones, no sign posts, no game plan, no roadmap, from my own subjective perception extremely low and almost non-existent success rate.

 

Practice B: Maybe a few hundred serious practitioners worldwide, highly structured system, complete roadmap and explanations, and people who follow instructions to a T get real results, and leads to much higher levels of success for stated goal than practice A.

 

 

Mo pai is the very definition of low/non-existent success rate.

 

Attainment of level 4 is based on the will of heaven and there is only ONE per generation. Does it get any more "non-existent" than this?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Pai lok Nen had many high level students, this once per generation thing probably started with Liao.

 

In any case assuming one per 500 every generation in practice B, is still better than 0 per 500 million every generation in practice A.

 

Mo pai is the very definition of low/non-existent success rate.

 

Attainment of level 4 is based on the will of heaven and there is only ONE per generation. Does it get any more "non-existent" than this?

Edited July 12, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

It shouldn't be difficult, it should be pretty cut and dry. Just because someone is old, sounds wise and dedicated their life to a practice does not mean you should listen to them.

 

 

 

 

Seeing if someone has results from their practice is simple, but seeing if they have conquered rebirth is a different matter, it would be pretty hard to tell for sure until they die, and then there is nobody to ask

[Ish]

Pai lok Nen had many high level students, this once per generation thing probably started with Liao.

 

In any case assuming one per 500 every generation in practice B, is still better than 0 per 500 million every generation in practice A.

 

You make too many assumptions

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seeing if someone has results from their practice is simple, but seeing if they have conquered rebirth is a different matter, it would be pretty hard to tell for sure until they die, and then there is nobody to ask

 

I think you answered your own question, has someone conquered rebirth? If after death there is no one to ask, the answer is most likely no.

[Thunder_Gooch]

/shrug

 

You make too many assumptions

[joeblast]

I am not so sure that is my cup of tea.Systems with clear roadmaps do actually exist.

I didn't contradict that statement - people grasp concepts at a rate in line with their own understandings. How well they do these things puts an unknown into the equation that obscures exact values like "do this for x amount of time." If I am able to grasp a key concept and out it to use while you don't quite fully get it, that will necessarily skew the amount of time required to put into the practice.

[Jetsun]

I think you answered your own question, has someone conquered rebirth? If after death there is no one to ask, the answer is most likely no.

There might be dead spiritual masters you can contact I suppose, but them being contactable isn't proof they have conquered rebirth, rather they have maintained their identity in their subtle body after their physical body has died so they can continue cultivating, but when the energy of that runs out they will go back into the mixer of being reborn.

 

Gurjieff talks about this in his system, how you can cultivate what he calls a subtle "Kesjan body" which can survive death, and lineages have ceremonies using things like the masters blood to recontact him after he is dead if they need to, but he explains that even though it extends your life to a long degree that some say you are immortal but in reality the energy of that subtle body will die too as all things are subject to disintegration in the end.

 

The supposedly special thing about the Buddha was that he was classed as a non returner so unlike some of the other masters you can't contact him any more, and why Buddhists aren't concerned with doing things like creating a subtle body to survive death as it is of the same nature of disintegration and death as everything else and could be just another form of clinging.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I think you are reading too much into what I said.

 

From my perspective one is putting together Ikea furniture and having a youtube video tutorial for each step of the process.

 

The other is building a couch out of 2x4's and hand woven alpaca wool pillows.

 

 

It doesn't have to be so complicated, clear instruction can be provided, clear road maps defined, clear sign posts defined, etc.

 

You should be able to know exactly where you are, and what to do next.

 

At least that's what I expect personally.

I didn't contradict that statement - people grasp concepts at a rate in line with their own understandings. How well they do these things puts an unknown into the equation that obscures exact values like "do this for x amount of time." If I am able to grasp a key concept and out it to use while you don't quite fully get it, that will necessarily skew the amount of time required to put into the practice.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Strangely enough they hold the fact that Jesus survived crucifixion as proof of his divinity.

Imagine today a master lost his life, and out of his dead lifeless body stepped a living spirit which looked identical to his physical body in every respect and could interact with the physical world as if it were a physical body.

 

There might be dead spiritual masters you can contact I suppose, but them being contactable isn't proof they have conquered rebirth, rather they have maintained their identity in their subtle body after their physical body has died so they can continue cultivating, but when the energy of that runs out they will go back into the mixer of being reborn.

Gurjieff talks about this in his system, how you can cultivate what he calls a subtle "Kesjan body" which can survive death, and lineages have ceremonies using things like the masters blood to recontact him after he is dead if they need to, but he explains that even though it extends your life to a long degree that some say you are immortal but in reality the energy of that subtle body will die too as all things are subject to disintegration in the end.

The supposedly special thing about the Buddha was that he was classed as a non returner so unlike some of the other masters you can't contact him any more, and why Buddhists aren't concerned with doing things like creating a subtle body to survive death as it is of the same nature of disintegration and death as everything else and could be just another form of clinging.

[joeblast]

Heh...you must know all I'm saying is some people can assemble something from Ikea in 30 min and for others it confounds them and takes 4 hours

[Apech]

Heh...you must know all I'm saying is some people can assemble something from Ikea in 30 min and for others it confounds them and takes 4 hours

 

 

Hey I can do that in 30 mins except what was supposed to be a bed turns out to be a wardrobe.

 

 

Have people considered that while the goals of different paths might be the same they are differently conceived. For instance the different types of Buddhism see the goal differently but that does not make Buddhahood different.

[idiot_stimpy]

Beyond all mental images the mind is naturally clear:

Follow no path to follow the path of the Buddhas;

Employ no technique to gain supreme enlightenment.

 

http://www.naturalawareness.net/ganges.html

[Songtsan]

 

I dont agree with your Op though

 

sincerely

 

Me

 

I dont want to be a buddha, or an immortal

 

Personally I think all these people so scared of living, they just want to escape their self created world of doom to get enlightenment is just plain negative.

 

Its close to psycopathic in my opinion

 

Why not just be happy now, have a laugh, have a play.

 

Open your heart.

 

Thats when the wisdom comes

 

All this talk about "prajna" and "shamatha" meditation and seriousness makes me feel ill

 

I couldn't agree more

 

I know that ideas of self/watcher/etc. are just mind fabrications. That it is all one thing, with no divisions in the ultimate state. I think we should always make a point to refer to conventional speak vs. ultimate speak. Conventionally there is a watcher - it is so demarcated in us from social conditioning that this is in fact, for all conventional purposes, more true than the ultimate truth. Truths in a conventional state are agreed upon, nothing more. If the state of Nirvana was the ultimate truth, why is it so extremely hard to attain so that only certain individuals ever attain it? I am just being a devil's advocate. Sometimes I wonder if we are already in the most natural state of being - that which has a sense of 'I' ness and that actually the Buddha was misled! lol I know I am wrong too - it is just fun to conjecture.

 

In reality, there is just action/reaction

 

I don't even think that there is any 'thing' that reincarnates with karma at all - I believe that tendencies reincarnate, but that there is nothing that escapes any wheel whatsoever. My personal goal isn't to try to escape some wheel of suffering - I don't like suffering myself, but I also don't fear it. I think that the Buddha was dealt a bad hand in coming from such a place of pleasure in his early life. As soon as he saw what the world was really like he freaked out and immediately decided he had to get away from this crazy place. I grew up in a world of suffering myself. I learned not to fear it, thus I don't really seek enlightenment, although I am on the path that will likely result from it. I seek to improve the world around me, not in a Bodhisattva type of way, but in a different way. I simply want to make the world better for the next generation. I don't think that when I die that there will be some locus of quasi-self that will reappear and have to deal with what I did in this life directly. I simply think that the action/reaction marks I left on this world will affect what the energy that I am, when it returns to new life, will have to deal with. So it is true in a way that I will reincarnate, but it won't be in some local form, specific to a certain individual. The energy that I am in this life, will divide and become a nearly infinite number of beings. So I will be reborn as everyone that exists, and whatever mark my fabricated 'I' in this lifetime made, will be felt by all those new constructed 'I's. That is why I think there ultimately only one being in existence.

 

So I think that people spend time trying to perfect themselves, when they would be better suited to pursue perfection of the reality around us as well. In a way, the Buddha was selfish - he was like: 'I am getting out this crazy place! Here is the way to get out...sucks to be you guys if you don't do what I did!' I am more Mahayana, but not so much like them either! They still think this place is awful and want to escape! They just want to stay around and help everyone escape because they care.

 

These people are all running away in fear from this crazy place. I am more about: let's make this place more awesome! That is my goal, and is what I am writing about really - how to make things better for everyone/self.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[Jadespear]

All paths lead somewhere...therefore they are all valid in of themselves.

 

"There are as many paths or ways to god as there are people"... Hindu proverb.

 

The real questions are quite simple.

 

What do you hope to achieve?

How do you hope to achieve that?

Why do you want to achieve that?

 

Getting lost in superstition may lead you finally to realize how confusing it can be and then eventually you'll realize what is clear. That is a path that leads to something, leads to the discovery of a truth.

 

So long as you seek the truth, you will have a good chance of finding it.

 

Lets not forget that every effect has a cause.

 

Satanists follow satan...their path is valid

Taoists flow with the Tao...their path is valid

Christians follow each other...their path is valid

Jews...make money...their path is valid

Humanists love one another...their path is valid

 

In the closed loop of systematic dogma, everything leads to whatever it is designed to lead to.....

Which is why all organized religions and dogmatic practices are stupid and pointless on the search for truth. If you want to really know, you must be free from every influence, how else could you discover anything new?

 

"Not all those who wonder are lost"

 

Check out " the first and last freedom" by Krishnamurti.

[Jadespear]

All paths lead somewhere...therefore they are all valid in of themselves.

 

"There are as many paths or ways to god as there are people"... Hindu proverb.

 

The real questions are quite simple.

 

What do you hope to achieve?

How do you hope to achieve that?

Why do you want to achieve that?

 

Getting lost in superstition may lead you finally to realize how confusing it can be and then eventually you'll realize what is clear. That is a path that leads to something, leads to the discovery of a truth.

 

So long as you seek the truth, you will have a good chance of finding it.

 

Lets not forget that every effect has a cause.

 

Satanists follow satan...their path is valid

Taoists flow with the Tao...their path is valid

Christians follow each other...their path is valid

Jews...make money...their path is valid

Humanists love one another...their path is valid

 

In the closed loop of systematic dogma, everything leads to whatever it is designed to lead to.....

Which is why all organized religions and dogmatic practices are stupid and pointless on the search for truth. If you want to really know, you must be free from every influence, how else could you discover anything new?

 

"Not all those who wonder are lost"

 

Check out " the first and last freedom" by Krishnamurti.