Are all paths really valid?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am looking for a complete roadmap, like an algebra equation.

 

Do this for x hours, then this for x hours, then this for x hours, etc.

 

Systematic and easy to comprehend, with clear explanations for what each step does and why it is necessary, and where it leads to.

 

I've been googling various Dzogchen meditations without much luck on actual instruction.

 

I need a roadmap.

 

 

MPG...

 

The way to end rebirth is clear, if you look over the teachings fully. You just aren't seeing it, because you're looking for one practice which is enough on its own, when there are stages where the practice alters as you progress, and new insights introduced along the Way. The whole thing is 'how to escape rebirth', one part in isolation isn't the complete map.

 

Here's a rough summary:

 

Stage 1: Virtue + shamatha + wisdom -> jhana + chi development

 

Stage 2: Vipassana -> prajna -> transcend clinging to a large extent + realise emptiness -> stream-entry -> once-return -> non-return -> arhatship + limited freedom from rebirth + greatly reduced clinging, delusion and ill-will

 

Stage 3: More development of prajna and compassion -> realising there is Tao AND emptiness (to a deeper extent than possible before arhatship) + bodhichitta -> further prajna, samadhi and virtue development -> glimpse Tao + further reduce clinging, delusion and ill-will -> know what to do -> progress through bodhisattva bhumis -> fully develop realisation + chi + mind -> Buddhahood + freedom from rebirth.

[Thunder_Gooch]

the irony being that the worse your prison the stronger the longing to break free from it.

My prison is pretty nice, but I am consumed every minute of every day knowing that death is coming and following that rebirth into a situation like this again.

 

My longing to break free is literally the only thing that matters to me in life.

[Marblehead]

My longing to break free is literally the only thing that matters to me in life.

Would it help if I told you that when you die it is "Game Over"?

[xor]

Would it help if I told you that when you die it is "Game Over"?

 

That's what a lot of people are betting their hopes on.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Would it help if I told you that when you die it is "Game Over"?

 

Ego, personality, emotion, humanity, all of that dies, the core experience will continue however.

[Marblehead]

Ego, personality, emotion, humanity, all of that dies, the core experience will continue however.

Well, if that is what you believe then you will have to deal with it. Sorry I couldn't help.

[XieJia]

My longing to break free is literally the only thing that matters to me in life.

 

Then it is literally the only thing bounding you.

[skydog]

what the taoiseasy said.

Edited July 10, 2013 by skydog

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I am looking for a complete roadmap, like an algebra equation.Do this for x hours, then this for x hours, then this for x hours, etc.Systematic and easy to comprehend, with clear explanations for what each step does and why it is necessary, and where it leads to.I've been googling various Dzogchen meditations without much luck on actual instruction.I need a roadmap.

There isn't one mechanical process which fits everyone. Different people need slightly different practices and will take different timescales due to variation in fetters, faculties and effort applied.

 

I'll try to simplify a bit more:

 

At all stages, develop virtue.

 

First, achieve shamatha. Anapana is a good way. An excellent practical guide here is The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace. It tells you all you need to know. (There are 9 stages, I've achieved the 3rd).

 

Second, continue with shamatha to master the jhanas, but switch emphasis to prajna by practicing vipassana.

 

Koan contemplation is a smart method because it's combined shamatha and vipassana. It's a very simple practice, just take a koan (Google for one) and focus on it, don't try to intellectual figure it out but throw all your doubt into the koan constantly until you get it in a flash of insight.

 

Then switch to another koan.

 

When you realise that all things are impermanent, unsatisfying and lacking selfhood, you are a stream-entrant. Just keep going until you fully realise the dependantly-originated empty nature of all things, which is arhatship.

 

Third, notice that since there is no concept of things having substance, there is no need for the concept of emptiness, and let it go to realise that there is the Tao absolutely beyond all dualisms and concepts.

 

Release all concepts as merely provisional guides, let go of forms, sensations, conceptions, volitions and consciousness. Then you can glimpse Tao, which is beyond all transformations of these phenomena.

 

By this point your virtue should be building to the extent that you have bodhichitta, and are a bodhisattva cultivating for the sake of others rather than just your own freedom from samsara; and prajna is so deep that samsara and nirvana are really the same.

 

Fourth, keep refining, releasing, realising. Now Tao has been glimpsed, you can practice Dzogchen non-meditation or similar to fully ripen perception of Tao, until all fetters drop away and you are a Buddha or Immortal, with mastery of rebirth.

 

 

Virtue development is necessary because non-virtuous qualities are based in ignorance (ignoring for now the desire to be a good person for it's own sake), and trying to progress while acting and thinking backwardly doesn't get one very far.

 

Shamatha development is necessary because it makes the mind-stream clear and stable enough for prajna to build and stabilise, and to perceive and control the factors behind rebirth to some extent (which is why arhats can take a long holiday from rebirth, but not escape).

 

Prajna development is necessary because full mastery of rebirth requires realisation of Tao to erode the factors behind it to the extent that rebirth will be controlled fully.

 

So virtue is like pulling up the anchor, shamatha is like hiring a crew and prajna is like raising the sails.

[Ish]

I am looking for a complete roadmap, like an algebra equation.

 

Do this for x hours, then this for x hours, then this for x hours, etc.

 

Systematic and easy to comprehend, with clear explanations for what each step does and why it is necessary, and where it leads to.

 

I've been googling various Dzogchen meditations without much luck on actual instruction.

 

I need a roadmap.

 

 

 

 

For Dzogchen you get direct transmission for the natural state.

 

Then you either recognize it and continue your meditation in this recognition.

 

OR you don't recognize it and do the assortment of dzogchen preliminaries designed to let you recognise.

 

From there you stabilise and integrate the state into EVERYTHING, including sleep.

More advanced you get more advance practice e.g THOGAL - this leads you to the fruition when practiced. You can do secondary practices e.g Tummo and other energy works, but the NATURAL STATE is the core of this... you usually don't do thogal unless your trekcho is stable.

 

 

 

Just my noob knowledge but i think it's pretty accurate. Please correct me if i said anything incorrect.

[joeblast]

I am looking for a complete roadmap, like an algebra equation.Do this for x hours, then this for x hours, then this for x hours, etc.Systematic and easy to comprehend, with clear explanations for what each step does and why it is necessary, and where it leads to.I've been googling various Dzogchen meditations without much luck on actual instruction.I need a roadmap.

the issue with that view is that its not just do this for x amount of hours...say something like focusing the spirit at the seat of awareness...how well you can do that will slow or speed progress commensurately, so it winds up being impossible to say time...more phenomenologically based...

[Thunder_Gooch]

the issue with that view is that its not just do this for x amount of hours...say something like focusing the spirit at the seat of awareness...how well you can do that will slow or speed progress commensurately, so it winds up being impossible to say time...more phenomenologically based...

I am not so sure that is my cup of tea.

 

Systems with clear roadmaps do actually exist.

Edited July 11, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Not to be rude, but this sort of stuff is useful only as toilet paper for me.

 

I need something much more structured,and practical, clear goals, clear sign posts, logical explanation for each step along the path, etc.

 

I am not sure a realization is what I am looking for, I am looking for a physical transformation.

 

Many of the Buddhists I speak with are all about changing perceptions of things, and understanding things, but do not seek to fundamentally change the nature of the situation.

 

It seems more about understanding what is, and accepting what is, rather than working to change what is.

 

 

 

There isn't one mechanical process which fits everyone. Different people need slightly different practices and will take different timescales due to variation in fetters, faculties and effort applied.

 

I'll try to simplify a bit more:

 

At all stages, develop virtue.

 

First, achieve shamatha. Anapana is a good way. An excellent practical guide here is The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace. It tells you all you need to know. (There are 9 stages, I've achieved the 3rd).

 

Second, continue with shamatha to master the jhanas, but switch emphasis to prajna by practicing vipassana.

 

Koan contemplation is a smart method because it's combined shamatha and vipassana. It's a very simple practice, just take a koan (Google for one) and focus on it, don't try to intellectual figure it out but throw all your doubt into the koan constantly until you get it in a flash of insight.

 

Then switch to another koan.

 

When you realise that all things are impermanent, unsatisfying and lacking selfhood, you are a stream-entrant. Just keep going until you fully realise the dependantly-originated empty nature of all things, which is arhatship.

 

Third, notice that since there is no concept of things having substance, there is no need for the concept of emptiness, and let it go to realise that there is the Tao absolutely beyond all dualisms and concepts.

 

Release all concepts as merely provisional guides, let go of forms, sensations, conceptions, volitions and consciousness. Then you can glimpse Tao, which is beyond all transformations of these phenomena.

 

By this point your virtue should be building to the extent that you have bodhichitta, and are a bodhisattva cultivating for the sake of others rather than just your own freedom from samsara; and prajna is so deep that samsara and nirvana are really the same.

 

Fourth, keep refining, releasing, realising. Now Tao has been glimpsed, you can practice Dzogchen non-meditation or similar to fully ripen perception of Tao, until all fetters drop away and you are a Buddha or Immortal, with mastery of rebirth.

 

 

Virtue development is necessary because non-virtuous qualities are based in ignorance (ignoring for now the desire to be a good person for it's own sake), and trying to progress while acting and thinking backwardly doesn't get one very far.

 

Shamatha development is necessary because it makes the mind-stream clear and stable enough for prajna to build and stabilise, and to perceive and control the factors behind rebirth to some extent (which is why arhats can take a long holiday from rebirth, but not escape).

 

Prajna development is necessary because full mastery of rebirth requires realisation of Tao to erode the factors behind it to the extent that rebirth will be controlled fully.

 

So virtue is like pulling up the anchor, shamatha is like hiring a crew and prajna is like raising the sails.

[Songtsan]

Someone may have thought/said this...but 'valid' for what? All paths lead somewhere. Do you want to go along all paths? Not me. Probably not you either! If you mean do all paths lead to same goal, then yes, eventually - even thousands of years from now. You can sacrifice someone and end up in heaven way down a long road, but in reality you will see hell first (and probably get sacrificed a few times your self). Get the grand tour. The reason that certain common cliches exist is because they are wisdom from the ages, such as the Golden rule, look before you leap, that kind of thing. If one distills the quintessential wisdom from all major religions/spiritual paths, one can create a pretty good system. I am not including systems like black magic, Satanism, etc. they may have some wisdom, but they are flawed and corrupted. Nondualism proposes that all paths whose goal is the truth converge into the truth. I believe it is possible, but I cannot experience all paths in one lifetime, so I will not venture further than to say that.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Not to be rude, but this sort of stuff is useful only as toilet paper for me.

I need something much more structured,and practical, clear goals, clear sign posts, logical explanation for each step along the path, etc.

 

I am not sure a realization is what I am looking for, I am looking for a physical transformation.

 

Many of the Buddhists I speak with are all about changing perceptions of things, and understanding things, but do not seek to fundamentally change the nature of the situation.It seems more about understanding what is, and accepting what is, rather than working to change what is.

I just GAVE you something structured and practical with clear goals, signposts and reasons. Twice.

 

The 9 stages of shamatha are clearly delineated, especially in 'The Attention Revolution' by Alan Wallace. Just get the book and get started, honestly the material is priceless.

 

You can easily find what stream-entry, once-return, non-return, arhatship and the Bodhisattva bhumis are, and their distinguishing features, on Google. And realisations are obviously something you know if you have or not.

 

Physical transformation is NOT ENOUGH to end rebirth.

 

Virtue is needed so you aren't holding yourself back.

 

Samadhi is needed to build prajna and manipulate the mechanism behind rebirth.

 

Prajna and Tao realisation is needed to get that mechanism absolutely mastered.

 

Physical transformation happens naturally along the Way, but can be aided by chi practices.

 

You CAN'T change the fundamental nature of the situation. Things will always lack fundamental essence, be dependently originated, be impermanent, and be unsatisfying.

 

If you want to master rebirth, you need to see Reality clearly so you can control the root causes of rebirth.

 

With chi development alone, maybe you can extend life significantly... but nothing escapes entropy. You WILL die, then just be tossed somewhere else without bringing any progress towards liberation into the next birth.

 

With samadhi and some prajna, you can push the cogs of the machine from within. A little control, but you can reach few cogs and not fully master even them. If you get to stream-entry, though, you will get to arhatship within 7 or so births and not go back from there, so that attainment is a definite 'upward spiral' checkpoint.

 

With full realisation, you have that machine's remote control.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Someone may have thought/said this...but 'valid' for what? All paths lead somewhere. Do you want to go along all paths? Not me. Probably not you either! If you mean do all paths lead to same goal, then yes, eventually - even thousands of years from now. You can sacrifice someone and end up in heaven way down a long road, but in reality you will see hell first (and probably get sacrificed a few times your self). Get the grand tour. The reason that certain common cliches exist is because they are wisdom from the ages, such as the Golden rule, look before you leap, that kind of thing. If one distills the quintessential wisdom from all major religions/spiritual paths, one can create a pretty good system. I am not including systems like black magic, Satanism, etc. they may have some wisdom, but they are flawed and corrupted. Nondualism proposes that all paths whose goal is the truth converge into the truth. I believe it is possible, but I cannot experience all paths in one lifetime, so I will not venture further than to say that.

If the goal is truth, the path has to include features leading to realisation of truth.

 

If the goal isn't related to truth, that's not really a good goal for a cultivator. It's a detour from a road to heaven into hell, purgatory, earth or a holiday resort just below heaven. Why not go direct for heaven?

 

Not all paths lead there. Sure, if someone travels 25,000 miles at a slight angle around the globe they can end up at their friend's house. That's a dumb way to do it, though. Why take an invalid path telling ourselves 'someday I will wind up on a valid path and be liberated', when we could just take a valid path now?

 

You say that black magic is 'flawed and corrupted'. Ask yourself what good it lacks and what bad it includes, then. What makes it flawed, and wouldn't any path with those features also be flawed? Can you go on to think of some features a path must have to not be flawed?

 

I try to distil the wisdom from all paths... but by definition, that means disregarding any ignorance within those paths.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Thunder_Gooch]

I realize you did your best, we come from completely different schools of thought, not my cup of tea, thank you anyway.

I just GAVE you something structured and practical with clear goals, signposts and reasons. Twice.

The 9 stages of shamatha are clearly delineated, especially in 'The Attention Revolution' by Alan Wallace. Just get the book and get started, honestly the material is priceless.

You can easily find what stream-entry, once-return, non-return, arhatship and the Bodhisattva bhumis are, and their distinguishing features, on Google. And realisations are obviously something you know if you have or not.

Physical transformation is NOT ENOUGH to end rebirth.

Virtue is needed so you aren't holding yourself back.

Samadhi is needed to build prajna and manipulate the mechanism behind rebirth.

Prajna and Tao realisation is needed to get that mechanism absolutely mastered.

Physical transformation happens naturally along the Way, but can be aided by chi practices.

You CAN'T change the fundamental nature of the situation. Things will always lack fundamental essence, be dependently originated, be impermanent, and be unsatisfying.

If you want to master rebirth, you need to see Reality clearly so you can control the root causes of rebirth.

With chi development alone, maybe you can extend life significantly... but nothing escapes entropy. You WILL die, then just be tossed somewhere else without bringing any progress towards liberation into the next birth.

With samadhi and some prajna, you can push the cogs of the machine from within. A little control, but you can reach few cogs and not fully master even them. If you get to stream-entry, though, you will get to arhatship within 7 or so births and not go back from there, so that attainment is a definite 'upward spiral' checkpoint.

With full realisation, you have that machine's remote control.

Edited July 11, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

A certain part of the mind wants a logical linear path as then the path is straightforward, safe and knowable, but there may be other parts of your being screaming out trying to direct you towards teachings, teachers, situations which are of immense benefit to you, but we generally don't listen to them because we are conditioned to only rely and trust on that one part of our mind in our culture from an early age.

 

In many different paths and traditions they describe an aspect of your being which is far more wise than your logical conscious mind will ever be, they call it the superconscious, the Nagual, the Aumakua, the higher consciousness etc which works beyond the confines of the regular mind. Just as an experiment try and rely on intuition and instinct to direct your path instead of logic for a few months and see what you find, have a leap of faith.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I look for what gets results Jetsun.

The amount of people pursuing these Buddhist paths is exponentially larger than are pursuing paths like mo pai.

I am not seeing any of these guys get (what I consider to be) real results.

A certain part of the mind wants a logical linear path as then the path is straightforward, safe and knowable, but there may be other parts of your being screaming out trying to direct you towards teachings, teachers, situations which are of immense benefit to you, but we generally don't listen to them because we are conditioned to only rely and trust on that one part of our mind in our culture from an early age.

In many different paths and traditions they describe an aspect of your being which is far more wise than your logical conscious mind will ever be, they call it the superconscious, the Nagual, the Aumakua, the higher consciousness etc which works beyond the confines of the regular mind. Just as an experiment try and rely on intuition and instinct to direct your path instead of logic for a few months and see what you find, have a leap of faith.

Edited July 11, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

.

Edited July 12, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[BaguaKicksAss]

This is actually a "are all paths valid" thread, not a promote the heck out of Mo Pai, and whether it is valid or not" thread. (since there are at least half a dozen others for that.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Practice A: 500 million adherents, unstructured program of meditation, no real system of development, no milestones, no sign posts, no game plan, no roadmap, from my own subjective perception extremely low and almost non-existent success rate.

 

Practice B: Maybe a few hundred serious practitioners worldwide, highly structured system, complete roadmap and explanations, and people who follow instructions to a T get real results, and leads to much higher levels of success for stated goal than practice A.

 

 

 

This is actually a "are all paths valid" thread, not a promote the heck out of Mo Pai, and whether it is valid or not" thread. (since there are at least half a dozen others for that.

[idiot_stimpy]

I am not sure a realization is what I am looking for, I am looking for a physical transformation.

 

Because they see the physical as being impermanent.

[Songtsan]

If the goal is truth, the path has to include features leading to realisation of truth.

 

If the goal isn't related to truth, that's not really a good goal for a cultivator. It's a detour from a road to heaven into hell, purgatory, earth or a holiday resort just below heaven. Why not go direct for heaven?

 

Not all paths lead there. Sure, if someone travels 25,000 miles at a slight angle around the globe they can end up at their friend's house. That's a dumb way to do it, though. Why take an invalid path telling ourselves 'someday I will wind up on a valid path and be liberated', when we could just take a valid path now?

 

You say that black magic is 'flawed and corrupted'. Ask yourself what good it lacks and what bad it includes, then. What makes it flawed, and wouldn't any path with those features also be flawed? Can you go on to think of some features a path must have to not be flawed?

 

I try to distil the wisdom from all paths... but by definition, that means disregarding any ignorance within those paths.

 

I believe, and I think that the Buddha did too, that eventually we will all end up as fully realized, whether we intend it or not. That is why I believe that all paths lead to the same point. The Buddha himself said 'do not seek to follow him,' but instead to 'seek what he himself sought' and that simply was the truth. People mis-conceptualize that by surrendering to a system, one is sure to gain enlightenment. This is both true and not true. There is always a more effective way than the way that one is practicing - this is a belief I hold dear to my heart. It basically means that there is always room for improvement. If you simply try to make yourself a carbon copy of some other idealized being/path, you will fall short of your full potential, although you may still become successful in the end. By constantly seeking after the truest truth, you will find that that itself is the path. As long as you don't get caught in delusional mind states, you will progress rapidly. This has been my experience.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Practice A: 500 million adherents, unstructured program of meditation, no real system of development, no milestones, no sign posts, no game plan, no roadmap, from my own subjective perception extremely low and almost non-existent success rate.

 

Practice B: Maybe a few hundred serious practitioners worldwide, highly structured system, complete roadmap and explanations, and people who follow instructions to a T get real results, and leads to much higher levels of success for stated goal than practice A.

I'm guessing 'practice A' is supposed to be Buddhism and 'practice B' is supposed to be mo pai.

 

Both are structured, both explained, both have clear milestones, both have a game plan... as I've said, the 9 stages of shamatha and the 9 jhanas, realisation of the 3 marks producing stream entry, dropping of various fetters to progress to once-return, non-return and arhatship, then the Bodhisattva bhumis, and Buddhahood.

 

If that's not a clear game plan and milestones, well I don't know what is!

 

I don't know much about mo pai, but you probably think it's so much more successful because their goals differ in difficulty, and you're measuring them based on physical transformation. I won't go on and on about realisation being a much better measure of success, because clearly that's something we simply won't agree on.

 

However, if you define a path aimed at Buddhahood or Immortalhood as unsuccessful based on people rarely attaining it, that's an unreasonable measure.

 

It's easier to physically transform than mentally transform, so of course a path like mo pai will have a higher number of practitioners reaching its goal in a given period than a path like Buddhism. What you are ignoring is the difference in goals, one is a high level of physical transformation and one is the summit of existence.

 

What you are demanding of Buddhism is that it advances people from normal humans into the highest form of being in one life.

 

Good luck!

 

We aren't aiming for some siddhis or physical transformations, we are aiming for something absolutely inconceivable, mind like fire unbound, trikaya, we are aiming to become Buddhas or Immortals (same thing, don't mistake someone with a few siddhis as an Immortal) who would make every being in this galaxy combined look like an ant and a supernova like a damp squib.

 

So if someone only becomes a Buddha/Immortal on the earth once in eons, don't take that as a problem with a path. Take it as a sign of the height of the mountain Buddhism, Taoism, and other fully valid paths leads up.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Seeker of the Self